Spending those last ~100 points

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1496

Spending those last ~100 points

Post#1 » Oct 10 2017 08:10

Here's my current 2000-point list; the core is done but there are about 100 points of wiggle-room available. Here's how it currently looks:

-

HQ - Aun’va w/ 2x Ethereal Honour Guard (75)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Longstrike w/ Railgun, 2x SMS, 2x Seeker Missiles (225)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 6x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 6x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 5x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (121)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 8x Markerlights (64)

Total: 1935 - Command Points: 8 (1 Battalion, 1 Supreme Command Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

-

There are a few ways to change it:

+6x Fire Warriors (+48) [2x added to each Fire Warrior unit]
+2x Gun Drones (+16) [2x added to Gun Drone unit]
Total: 1999

+3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, Homing Beacon (+110)
-3x Pathfinders w/ Rail Rifles (-81)
+3x Pathfinders w/ Ion Rifles (+36)
Total: 2000

+6x Gun Drones (+48)
+2x Shield Drones (+16) [Missile Pod Commander]
Total: 1999

-

Any of those look like good changes? Or, is a bigger shift in order?

Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
Posts: 85

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#2 » Oct 11 2017 01:49

Personally, given your two fusion commanders, I would go for the stealth suits option.
On another note, how has Longstrike done? His output is good, but as the only tank/MC in your list I would think he would get taken down quite quickly by all your opponent's anti-tank weapons.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1496

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#3 » Oct 11 2017 08:18

Watcher on the wall wrote:Personally, given your two fusion commanders, I would go for the stealth suits option.

I'm leaning toward the Stealthsuits too. However, I really don't want to drop the Rail Rifles, since I really love those weapons. Here's another way to add Stealthsuits that would preserve the Rail Rifles, that I thought of just now:

- 6x Gun Drones (-48)
+ 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons; Homing Beacon (+110)

That would push the list to 1984 points, leaving room for a a Drone Controller and Fusion Blaster on the Stealthsuits, a pair of Shield Drones for the Missile Pod Commander, or a pair of Gun Drones for the Stealthsuits. The drawback would be losing the little assault screen in front of the Fire Warriors though, but what were six Gun Drones going to do anyway?
What do you think?

Watcher on the wall wrote:On another note, how has Longstrike done? His output is good, but as the only tank/MC in your list I would think he would get taken down quite quickly by all your opponent's anti-tank weapons.

In a bizarre quirk of fate, I've only ever deployed Longstrike in games that turn out to have deployments that were the "long way". In these games Longstrike's huge range means he can finish off tanks left, right, and center while remaining relatively unmolested. I am worried that he'll be an anti-tank magnet though.

To me, Longstrike's role is that of an executioner. Fusion Commanders have great damage but have short ranges- sometimes tanks and monsters are low on wounds, so Longstrike can perform well by taking off those last 3-4 wounds and securing kills when needed. This is especially good against armies like Necrons and AdMech whose vehicles can heal!

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Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 95

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#4 » Oct 11 2017 09:40

Have you considered adding an xv8 to one of your three man teams. 42+36+8 . It allows you to keep your rail rifles you want to play and let's you test you xv8 ats plan you were mentioning on a different post..86 points for an add on. You can also modify that xv8 to have a DC and 2 gun drones (now 99 points 2 CIBs, 1 dc) A dc buffing 8 drones may be more valuable then a 4th ats. Having two teams of crisis suits makes your gameplay decisions on the battlefield harder. Since one unit is slightly stronger than the other. I think you would enjoy that challenge and the variance in your crisis deployment tactics
~1.5 hours later edit : I been thinking about the extra xv88. I like it more and more. By having it on one team it gives you the option to manta strike in two crisis teams near each other. For the 4man DC team it should net an addition ~5 gun drone hits(math=(8 drones*4shots)/6) chance a shot rolls a 3) if the 4th xv8 (dc)is close to the 2nd crisis units drones, that's over 9 additional hits. I like this. I may implement an unbalanced crisis* teams in my own lists now. Food for thought
* 1 crisis team with dc and one team without dc
Last edited by Lostroninsoul on Oct 11 2017 11:19, edited 4 times in total.

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 263

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#5 » Oct 11 2017 10:19

Since you are playing an Ethereal (Aun'va in this case) have you considered playing XV88s to take advantage of Evocation of the Elemnts? With 2 QFB you can probably afford to equip it/them with HYMP/ATS which is pretty disgusting as a first turn alpha strike (Kauyon/Tides/Stone) and the SMS are really affective at clearing out infantry from cover.

I would also consider adding a HH to take advantage of Longstrike, perhaps using what LOST said and making a 4m team of XV8 to gain some points back.

I would agree to keeping the rail rifles and trying to fit in a Stealth team.

If you do decide to go with a suit heavy gun line I would suggest swaping the Gun drones to Shield drones to improve survivability

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 322

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#6 » Oct 11 2017 10:21

Arka0415 wrote:
Watcher on the wall wrote:Personally, given your two fusion commanders, I would go for the stealth suits option.

I'm leaning toward the Stealthsuits too. However, I really don't want to drop the Rail Rifles, since I really love those weapons. Here's another way to add Stealthsuits that would preserve the Rail Rifles, that I thought of just now:

- 6x Gun Drones (-48)
+ 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons; Homing Beacon (+110)

That would push the list to 1984 points, leaving room for a a Drone Controller and Fusion Blaster on the Stealthsuits, a pair of Shield Drones for the Missile Pod Commander, or a pair of Gun Drones for the Stealthsuits. The drawback would be losing the little assault screen in front of the Fire Warriors though, but what were six Gun Drones going to do anyway?
What do you think?

Watcher on the wall wrote:On another note, how has Longstrike done? His output is good, but as the only tank/MC in your list I would think he would get taken down quite quickly by all your opponent's anti-tank weapons.

In a bizarre quirk of fate, I've only ever deployed Longstrike in games that turn out to have deployments that were the "long way". In these games Longstrike's huge range means he can finish off tanks left, right, and center while remaining relatively unmolested. I am worried that he'll be an anti-tank magnet though.

To me, Longstrike's role is that of an executioner. Fusion Commanders have great damage but have short ranges- sometimes tanks and monsters are low on wounds, so Longstrike can perform well by taking off those last 3-4 wounds and securing kills when needed. This is especially good against armies like Necrons and AdMech whose vehicles can heal!

Definitely this. DC and shield drones on the stealths. They clearly will be shot at and if you want to get your commander in, use the shield drones.

Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
Posts: 85

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#7 » Oct 11 2017 10:25

I'm leaning toward the Stealthsuits too. However, I really don't want to drop the Rail Rifles, since I really love those weapons. Here's another way to add Stealthsuits that would preserve the Rail Rifles, that I thought of just now:

- 6x Gun Drones (-48)
+ 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons; Homing Beacon (+110)

That would push the list to 1984 points, leaving room for a a Drone Controller and Fusion Blaster on the Stealthsuits, a pair of Shield Drones for the Missile Pod Commander, or a pair of Gun Drones for the Stealthsuits. The drawback would be losing the little assault screen in front of the Fire Warriors though, but what were six Gun Drones going to do anyway?
What do you think?


That could work. I've never used pathfinders with rail rifles, but I think I would take 6 gun drones over a few rail rifles - are they really that good?
Another factor to consider is that the gun drones are your third FA choice, so not taking them would lose you a CP.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 3062

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#8 » Oct 11 2017 11:30

Watcher on the wall wrote:I've never used pathfinders with rail rifles, but I think I would take 6 gun drones over a few rail rifles - are they really that good?

If you can use them they are awesome. Wiped a Deathwatch unit that consolidated into Rapid Fire range with just 3 plus some Pulse Carbine potshots (because I got enough Markerlights from a second Pathfinder unit on them already).
Think about it. Once you manage to hit with a Rail Rifle there's basically already something dead. With S6 you wound infantry on 3+ or 2+ and with AP-4 not much has a save against those wounds. And that's without the potential Mortal wounds even.

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 263

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#9 » Oct 11 2017 11:53

HQ - Aun’va w/ 2x Ethereal Honour Guard (75)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 6x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306)
Elites - 3x Stealth suits, Homing beacon (110)
Fast Attack - 9x Shield Drones (72)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 5x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (121)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 8x Markerlights (64)
Heavy - 2x Broadsides w/ HYMP, SMS, ATS, 2x seeker missile (430)

Total: 2000 - Command Points: 7 (1 Battalion, 1 Outrider Detachment)

If you want to add a HH to the original list thats 205 pts w/ SMS, Railgun, 2x seekers

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 322

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#10 » Oct 11 2017 12:09

And I will pretty much always tell you to split those firewarriors in this list to get free CP's for having a second battalion but I know you hate that style of play. You may have to get used to it and sing a different tune when we get our codex with sexy CP devouring stratagems. :P

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1496

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#11 » Oct 11 2017 07:35

Glarblar wrote:I would agree to keeping the rail rifles and trying to fit in a Stealth team. If you do decide to go with a suit heavy gun line I would suggest swaping the Gun drones to Shield drones to improve survivability

For now, the reason I'm not using Shield Drones is because I only have 6- just enough to give two each to the Commanders and Stealthsuits. If I get more I'll consider it, but I do like the added "punch" given by the Gun Drones when the XV8s deploy via Manta Strike.

Watcher on the wall wrote:Another factor to consider is that the gun drones are your third FA choice, so not taking them would lose you a CP.

I'd be adding Stealthsuits either way, so I don't think it's much of an issue- I'll lose the Outrider Detachment but add a Vanguard Detachment, so it's the same number of points.

Glarblar wrote:HQ - Aun’va w/ 2x Ethereal Honour Guard (75)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 6x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306)
Elites - 3x Stealth suits, Homing beacon (110)
Fast Attack - 9x Shield Drones (72)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 5x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (121)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 8x Markerlights (64)
Heavy - 2x Broadsides w/ HYMP, SMS, ATS, 2x seeker missile (430)

Total: 2000 - Command Points: 7 (1 Battalion, 1 Outrider Detachment)

I might try and proxy this in the future, but for the time being I don't have any HYMP Broadsides. If, in the new Codex, HRR Broadsides suddenly become viable, I'll definitely be adding some. I love Broadsides, and I'm pretty sad that they're so non-viable right now.

Yojimbob wrote:And I will pretty much always tell you to split those firewarriors in this list to get free CP's for having a second battalion but I know you hate that style of play. You may have to get used to it and sing a different tune when we get our codex with sexy CP devouring stratagems. :P

For the time being I'm happy with 8 CP, but you're right. If we get a whole bucket of fun Strategems in the future, then maximizing Command Points will be very important, I think. In that case though, the whole list will probably have to change to accommodate new tactics though, so I'm not too worried. When the Codex finally comes out, you and I need to talk about Strategems, CPs, and maaaaaaybe me using MSU Fire Warriors :P

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 263

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#12 » Oct 12 2017 09:31

Arka0415 wrote:I might try and proxy this in the future, but for the time being I don't have any HYMP Broadsides. If, in the new Codex, HRR Broadsides suddenly become viable, I'll definitely be adding some. I love Broadsides, and I'm pretty sad that they're so non-viable right now.


I've been pondering over taking a Bomber vs an XV88 in PL (since they are both 9), and my theory is that XV88 are worth it if you are taking a CO and Ethereal in your gunline. The buffs they can dish out are fantastic, especially if you can fit Shadowsun in there too: Turn 1 and 2 you get reroll all misses on the gun line.

Someone told me a while back, "This game is like AOS now: you start with your HQ/buff units, and build around those"

Right now your buff units are:
Longstrike (Buff HH)
Aun'va (Buff Infantry, Battlesuits; and morale of all T'au)
Fireblade (Buff FW, Gun Drones)

The overlap you got right now infantry. LS loses some efficiency by not buffing another HH, and Aun'va loses a little efficiency by only buffing your Infantry and MP-CO.

I know that longstrike is a hard hitter, but his potential survivability in your list is 1-2 turns. All the enemies lances/las/etc are going to focus right on him. Which, is why tourny lists have tried to pair him with bodyguards. This is also why the 'No Retreat' list was great: he had 3 tough units in the back line for the enemy to try and decide what to shoot at: LS, HH, and Stormsurge
http://www.tfgradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/No-Retreat-Cadre.jpg

XV88 therefore become more efficient b/c they A) get an additional buff from Aun'va, and B) Drones can take shots for them.

The main thorn in my brain about running a MP-CO with HYMP XV88 is that they both shoot 7/-2/D3 which seems too redudant to me, which is where HRR might come out better. HYMP is just so efficient in a PL battle however.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1496

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#13 » Oct 12 2017 07:25

Glarblar wrote:Right now your buff units are:
Longstrike (Buff HH)
Aun'va (Buff Infantry, Battlesuits; and morale of all T'au)
Fireblade (Buff FW, Gun Drones)

The overlap you got right now infantry. LS loses some efficiency by not buffing another HH, and Aun'va loses a little efficiency by only buffing your Infantry and MP-CO.

...

XV88 therefore become more efficient b/c they A) get an additional buff from Aun'va, and B) Drones can take shots for them.

I understand that Aun'va's efficiency could be improved by giving him something to buff, but I don't think the Broadside is the right choice. If you use the Fire buff, that does the same thing as Markerlights. Neither the Water nor Air buffs apply to a Broadside. The Earth buff does make the Broadside a little more durable, but it's already plenty durable behind a screen of Shield Drones. Seeing as a Broadside is expensive, a poor recipient of buffs, and struggles to deal even 3 damage per turn even with a full suite of Markerlight buffs, I just don't think the Broadside is a viable unit for a Tau army currently.

Glarblar wrote:I know that longstrike is a hard hitter, but his potential survivability in your list is 1-2 turns. All the enemies lances/las/etc are going to focus right on him. Which, is why tourny lists have tried to pair him with bodyguards. This is also why the 'No Retreat' list was great: he had 3 tough units in the back line for the enemy to try and decide what to shoot at: LS, HH, and Stormsurge

You're correct, Longstrike is a priority target... but the only thing that could draw target priority away from him would be a Stormsurge. Even if you packed 10 Hammerheads in your list, Longstrike would still be target priority #1 for enemy anti-tank weapons. As it stands, it takes about 14 Lascannons to bring him down, so I guess I'm willing to take those odds.

I really hope point values get modified in the new Codex- there are so many amazing opportunities for synergy that are being wasted by sub-par units, I think.

szeszej
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#14 » Oct 13 2017 02:10

Hm, am I missing something? Longstrike has the character rule so he cannot be focused down unless everything between him and the enemy has been wiped out.

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Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 95

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#15 » Oct 13 2017 04:48

szeszej wrote:Hm, am I missing something? Longstrike has the character rule so he cannot be focused down unless everything between him and the enemy has been wiped out.

Longstrike is over the wound cap needed to invoke that character rule.The model is to big to blurry into the chaotic battlefield that shrouds smaller characters. The cap is either 9 or 10 wounds. I don't remember the precise wording

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1496

Re: Spending those last ~100 points

Post#16 » Oct 13 2017 10:30

szeszej wrote:Hm, am I missing something? Longstrike has the character rule so he cannot be focused down unless everything between him and the enemy has been wiped out.

Ah, if only! You need to have fewer than 10 wounds for that to matter.

However, the "character" rules does mean that Longstrike can have his wounds tanked for him by Bodyguards (though not by Drones) though this is little protection sadly.

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