Y'vahra or not?

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zawyvern
Shas'Saal
Posts: 28

Y'vahra or not?

Post#1 » Oct 16 2017 01:27

Probably seems like a dumb question but I'm worried about low model count as it is. Since I opened my list to using forgeworld units it's made it even tougher to list build.
The main thing I'm thinking of replacing is my air support detachment. Since they don't count against being tabled it makes it easier for my opponent to do that, also they can't take objectives.
My first thought was to get a stormsurge, but a single one would really take a beating it seems. And since not a battlesuit, it can't use drones to protect itself.
The y'vahra fits with the mobility of the rest of my force and gets the 3+ inv.
I guess I'm wondering if I should go with a single big suit (y'vahra or stormsurge) or a couple of medium sized ones like ghostkeels or something.
I should also say I'm building a mostly suit and drone force, probably minimum markerlight support. Also can't really play test as I don't have enough counts-as-models. I want to have the list solid before I start buying models.

The list now: 1961pts; 6 command points; Outrider, Supreme command, Airwing detachments.

Commander: 4 fusion blasters, 2 shield drones
Commander: 4 fusion blasters, 2 shield drones
Coldstar commander: high cap burst cannon, missile pod, advanced targeting system, shield gen
Coldstar commander: high cap burst cannon, missile pod, advanced targeting system, shield gen

ZV9 Hazard x3: 6 double burst cannons, 3 advanced targeting systems, 4 gun drones
DX4 technical drones x2

Gun drones x8
Gun drones x8
Shield drones x4

XV88 x2: 2 heavy rail rifles, 2 smart missile systems, 2 velocity tracker

Sunshark bomber: markerlight, 2 missile pods, 2 seeker missiles, 2 interceptor drones
Sunshark bomber: markerlight, 2 missile pods, 2 seeker missiles, 2 interceptor drones
Remora stealth drones

If I drop the bombers and stealth drones, that leaves me about 490 to use altogether.
If I get a big suit that gives me about 10 suits with 28ish drones. I'll still have about 11 drops though. Should I get bunch of XV-8s or 9s? Ghostkeels? Riptides(unlikely)?
I want to keep the broadsides since I like the model and have some already. Also they do decent anti-flyer duty now.
Lastly, considering changing a bunch of gun drones to markerlights, especially if using a stormsurge. But worried about not having enough pulse shots against horde armies.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1927

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#2 » Oct 16 2017 08:44

So the idea here is to avoid using infantry? Fair enough! For a sit-back-and-shoot list the Stormsurge is great (especially with the Shield Generator to keep it alive), and for an aggressive list the Y'vahra is a fantastic option too. You may find that, as far as other Forgeworld units are concerned, neither Remoras nor Technical Drones are very good. Also, you might just want to dump the Broadsides- they really don't hold their own in 8th Edition.

Let's assume this is the core of your list:

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
Elites - 3x XV9 w/ 6x DBBC, 3x ATS; 4x Gun Drones (303)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)

In this sort of list, both a Y'vahra or a Stormsurge could do well. But if you're going Forgeworld, why not go all in? Let's add a Y'vahra for close-range anti-tank, and another pack of XV9s to complete your anti-infantry complement.

Elites - 3x XV9 w/ 6x DBBC, 3x ATS; 4x Gun Drones (303)
Fast Attack - Y'vahra w/ Target Lock, ATS (415)

This puts you at 1829 points and a squad of Stealthsuits could be the perfect thing that completes the army- carrying a Homing Beacon they can support your Fusion Commanders and they also provide a durable objective-holder if needed.

Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 1x Fusion Blaster, 2x Burst Cannons (121)

However, at least from my point of view, I'm not really fan of bringing two Coldstars. Let's drop to one, and add one of those Sun Sharks back in- they really are good units. Here's the final list idea:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
Elites - 3x XV9 w/ 6x DBBC, 3x ATS; 4x Gun Drones (303)
Elites - 3x XV9 w/ 6x DBBC, 3x ATS; 4x Gun Drones (303)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 1x Fusion Blaster, 2x Burst Cannons, 1x Markerlight & Target Lock (130)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - Y'vahra w/ Target Lock, ATS (415)
Flyer - Sun Shark Bomber w/ Markerlight, 2x Missile Pods; 2x Interceptor Drones w/ 4x Ion Rifles (191)

Total: 2000 - Command Points: 5 (1 Vanguard Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

-

Note that I have the Stealthsuits a Markerlight and Target Lock just to use up the last 9 points. Anyway, what do you think? This is just a brainstorm, I'm not wedded to any of these ideas :D

zawyvern
Shas'Saal
Posts: 28

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#3 » Oct 17 2017 06:39

Arka0415 wrote:So the idea here is to avoid using infantry? Fair enough! For a sit-back-and-shoot list the Stormsurge is great (especially with the Shield Generator to keep it alive), and for an aggressive list the Y'vahra is a fantastic option too. You may find that, as far as other Forgeworld units are concerned, neither Remoras nor Technical Drones are very good. Also, you might just want to dump the Broadsides- they really don't hold their own in 8th Edition.

Let's assume this is the core of your list:

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
Elites - 3x XV9 w/ 6x DBBC, 3x ATS; 4x Gun Drones (303)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)

In this sort of list, both a Y'vahra or a Stormsurge could do well. But if you're going Forgeworld, why not go all in? Let's add a Y'vahra for close-range anti-tank, and another pack of XV9s to complete your anti-infantry complement.

Elites - 3x XV9 w/ 6x DBBC, 3x ATS; 4x Gun Drones (303)
Fast Attack - Y'vahra w/ Target Lock, ATS (415)

This puts you at 1829 points and a squad of Stealthsuits could be the perfect thing that completes the army- carrying a Homing Beacon they can support your Fusion Commanders and they also provide a durable objective-holder if needed.

Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 1x Fusion Blaster, 2x Burst Cannons (121)

However, at least from my point of view, I'm not really fan of bringing two Coldstars. Let's drop to one, and add one of those Sun Sharks back in- they really are good units. Here's the final list idea:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
Elites - 3x XV9 w/ 6x DBBC, 3x ATS; 4x Gun Drones (303)
Elites - 3x XV9 w/ 6x DBBC, 3x ATS; 4x Gun Drones (303)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 1x Fusion Blaster, 2x Burst Cannons, 1x Markerlight & Target Lock (130)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - 4x Shield Drones, 2x Marker Drones (52)
Fast Attack - Y'vahra w/ Target Lock, ATS (415)
Flyer - Sun Shark Bomber w/ Markerlight, 2x Missile Pods; 2x Interceptor Drones w/ 4x Ion Rifles (191)

Total: 2000 - Command Points: 5 (1 Vanguard Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

-

Note that I have the Stealthsuits a Markerlight and Target Lock just to use up the last 9 points. Anyway, what do you think? This is just a brainstorm, I'm not wedded to any of these ideas :D


It's pretty interesting. Also burying the markerlight drones in with the shield drones never occured to me. I can see the benefit of switching to xv-9s from xv-88s with the Y'vahra. The mobility and ability to focus fire.

How about with a stormsurge. It can't benefit from all those drones. How would you fit it in?

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Posts: 1927

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#4 » Oct 17 2017 07:55

zawyvern wrote:I can see the benefit of switching to xv-9s from xv-88s with the Y'vahra. The mobility and ability to focus fire.

Yup, the idea is to keep the list aggressive and always on the move. You can get anti-tank from the Fusion Commanders and the Y'Vahra (it's a great tank-hunter!) and with all of this mobility the long-range versatility of the Broadsides really isn't needed, at least in my opinion.

zawyvern wrote:How about with a stormsurge. It can't benefit from all those drones. How would you fit it in?

If the Y'vahra is a point-blank shotgun, the Stormsurge is one of those cartoon guns with too many barrels and widgets on it! Pardon the horrible analogy, but the Stormsurge is basically a warehouse full of pain. It doesn't specialize in any area but rather engages many different targets each turn with its six different guns. A Stormsurge needs screening units (like Kroot, Drones, or Fire Warriors) and also needs a solid number of reliable Markerlights to make sure those Destroyer Missiles can fire. Ultimately, a list using a Stormsurge will fit one of two types:

1. The Stormsurge is the center and heart of a large, defensive gunline.

2. The Stormsurge has a small protection crew while forward skirmishing units make sure the enemy can never reach it.

Do either of those ideas sound interesting, or do you prefer the more in-your-face Y'vahra list?

Bolter&Rail
Shas'Saal
Posts: 78

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#5 » Oct 17 2017 08:27

My current list is the "Why Choose" list and I actually have a stormsurge AND Yvahra in the list. I make up for model count by complementing it with 3 commanders, 15 firewarriors, ~15 gun drones, a stealth team, a some pathfinders. That said half my list point-wise is in the Yvahra and Storm so it for sure keeps me up at night and makes me cringe when facing dark lance spam or the like.

Both models are durable (stormsurge obviously slightly more so). I find the offensive capabilities of the Yvahra actually more devastating. You will very likely have a juicy target you can get in range of turn 1, and you will do serious damage to it. That said your opponent can also bring the yvahra down in a turn and without 7th edition jump shoot jump the yavahra can be vulnerable. She is a 1-2 turn wonder when I have played her (but again I have been facing a lot of lance so maybe she can survive longer against other lists). For me she will earn 50-150% of her points back and a smart enemy will likely aim to kill her first. I think she does ~200pts of damage a turn so really depends on how long she lasts. An enemy can focus fire her down in 1 turn, but it will taken an entire army especially if you have some drones next to her.

As Arka0415 mentioned the Stormsurge just has way too many guns and is more about dishing decent damage at like 5 different targets a turn. To me it means he needs to survive a 3+ rounds to make it worthwhile. For me he has ALWAYS survived even though he has been on his last leg numerous times by turn 4-5. It is crucial to have reliable markerlights too so always be rerolling 1's on the high shot count weapons, and getting the destroyer missiles off turn 1-2. (I run 10 markerlights in my list)

I don't think you can go wrong with either one. They are both different and I would say the Yvahra is the higher risk play since you can get alpha hit or do meh turn 1 and not come close to earning her points back. The stormsurge on the other hand is likely not going down early in the game and will be a longer-term distraction for the enemy while still dishing damage. My strategy of taking both means I will struggle against hordes a bit, but a lance-comparable heavy opponent: while yes they have 2 very juicy targets, these two big units arent super easy to bring down when adequately protected, and typically what is shooting "lance" at them is a great target for me to have the Yvahra go chase down or destroyer missile ;)

zawyvern
Shas'Saal
Posts: 28

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#6 » Oct 17 2017 09:47

Bolter&Rail wrote:For me he has ALWAYS survived even though he has been on his last leg numerous times by turn 4-5.

I'm going to assume you equip the shield generator on your stormsurge. If you take a shield generator on the y'vahra and shield drone squadron to escort, it is very survivable (by the numbers). But slows down the Y'vahr a.
That's the tricky part, savior protocols are a huge advantage. Enough for me to willingly slightly handicap a unit. Converting big damage hits to a single wound that is ignored on a 5+ really saps the strength of shooty armies. Stormsurges not getting the benefit is a big drawback to my thinking.

1. The Stormsurge is the center and heart of a large, defensive gunline.

2. The Stormsurge has a small protection crew while forward skirmishing units make sure the enemy can never reach it.

Do either of those ideas sound interesting, or do you prefer the more in-your-face Y'vahra list?


Yup, have to redesign the force if I did include a stormsurge. I imagine adding something like pathfinders and firewarriors with darkstrider in support with a grav-inhibitor drone for good measure. Xv-9s could also benefit from the drone. To find the points to include a stormsurge I feel like I'd have to start from the ground up.

I guess overall I'm trying to figure out if the range of the stormsurge is worth losing the concentrated firepower and mobility of the y'vahra.

I do like the idea of the in your face Tau. But it seems hard to pull off when you got khorne bezerkers and the like running around. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Posts: 1927

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#7 » Oct 18 2017 03:25

Bolter&Rail wrote:My current list is the "Why Choose" list and I actually have a stormsurge AND Yvahra in the list.

I like this list idea! I'm sure it gives the enemy pause when it comes to alpha-strike target priority... which monster do you focus on first?

Bolter&Rail wrote:As Arka0415 mentioned the Stormsurge just has way too many guns and is more about dishing decent damage at like 5 different targets a turn. To me it means he needs to survive a 3+ rounds to make it worthwhile. For me he has ALWAYS survived even though he has been on his last leg numerous times by turn 4-5. It is crucial to have reliable markerlights too so always be rerolling 1's on the high shot count weapons, and getting the destroyer missiles off turn 1-2. (I run 10 markerlights in my list)

This is more true with the Stormsurge, but I think applicable advice to both units. Losing such a huge unit in the early game is a huge blow, so keeping it protected against alpha strike is an absolute must. Consider deploying the Y'vahra behind a screen of Shield Drones to tank early-game hits (which invariably come from long-range D6 damage weapons), a role they excel at. For the Stormsurge... bring a Shield Generator and hope for the best? Also, during deployment, pay attention to the units your opponent puts in deep strike reserve, you may need to bubble-wrap the Stormsurge to protect it against melee assault or (even more dangerous) deep-strike units with powerful shooting attacks.

-

zawyvern wrote:
Bolter&Rail wrote:For me he has ALWAYS survived even though he has been on his last leg numerous times by turn 4-5.

I'm going to assume you equip the shield generator on your stormsurge. If you take a shield generator on the y'vahra and shield drone squadron to escort, it is very survivable (by the numbers). But slows down the Y'vahr a.
That's the tricky part, savior protocols are a huge advantage. Enough for me to willingly slightly handicap a unit. Converting big damage hits to a single wound that is ignored on a 5+ really saps the strength of shooty armies. Stormsurges not getting the benefit is a big drawback to my thinking.

The Shield Generator really isn't necessary on the Y'vahra, I think. Keep it with Shield Drones for as long as you can (it will outrun them eventually) and they will soak hits like crazy! The Stormsurge may not get that bonus, but putting a Shield Generator on the Stormsurge really helps its durability. You can trust a Stormsurge to shake over 30 Lascannon shots! 30 shots > 15 hits > 10 wounds > 5 unsaved > 17.5 wounds... still not dead! :D


zawyvern wrote:Yup, have to redesign the force if I did include a stormsurge. I imagine adding something like pathfinders and firewarriors with darkstrider in support with a grav-inhibitor drone for good measure. Xv-9s could also benefit from the drone. To find the points to include a stormsurge I feel like I'd have to start from the ground up.

You're probably right, but that's not a bad thing! For a Stormsurge list, we don't necessarily need Fire Warriors, but we will need Pathfinders. We also need some kind of interdiction unit to attack or counter-attack things that threaten our Stormsurge. We also need the "regulars" like Fusion Commanders etc. Here's a 2000pt list brainstorm, again, just an idea:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Troops - 9x Fire Warriors (72)
Troops - 9x Fire Warriors (72)
Troops - 9x Fire Warriors (72)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 6x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, Homing Beacon (110)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders (64)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 3x Rail Rifles; 1x Recon Drone, 1x GI Drone, 1x PA Drone, 2x Shield Drones (165)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
LoW - Stormsurge w/ Pulse Driver, 2x Burst Cannons, Shield Generator, Stimulant Injector, ATS (491)

Total: 1998 - Command Points: 7 (1 Battalion Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment, 1 Super Heavy Auxiliary)

-

Once you build a defensive list around a Stormsurge, suddenly it feels... less fun, in a way? The Y'vahra list is of course riskier to play though. What do you think?

Bolter&Rail
Shas'Saal
Posts: 78

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#8 » Oct 18 2017 04:23

Arka0415 wrote:The Shield Generator really isn't necessary on the Y'vahra, I think. Keep it with Shield Drones for as long as you can (it will outrun them eventually) and they will soak hits like crazy! The Stormsurge may not get that bonus, but putting a Shield Generator on the Stormsurge really helps its durability. You can trust a Stormsurge to shake over 30 Lascannon shots! 30 shots > 15 hits > 10 wounds > 5 unsaved > 17.5 wounds... still not dead! :D


I agree. Shield Gen for a pretty penny on a Yvahra doesnt seem worth it given it will only befit her by -1 armor save on attacks >12" away. That said I don't think she has any obvious support systems, but so far I stick to stim injector and target lock to keep it mildly cheap and be a little defensive/attack boost. Drones are the best strategy, but a savy opponent will small arms kill the drones first so not fool-proof. Try to be sneaky and put the drones out of LoS so they don't get alpha'd and the Yvahra likely always sees a turn even again an army with 6 predators...

In my opinion you are crazy if not taking a shield gen on the stormsurge.

zawyvern
Shas'Saal
Posts: 28

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#9 » Oct 18 2017 06:41

Arka0415 wrote:Once you build a defensive list around a Stormsurge, suddenly it feels... less fun, in a way? The Y'vahra list is of course riskier to play though. What do you think?


Yeah, I've played the gunline for a long time. I want to mix it up a bit. The idea of two stormsurges as an anchor point is fun, but another static gunline just with different units isn't much of a change.

Bolter&Rail wrote:I agree. Shield Gen for a pretty penny on a Yvahra doesnt seem worth it ...


It did seem a pretty hefty tax. Equal to 4 shield drones. Get less wounds and take full damage on a failed save, as opposed to the one mortal wound. But if facing try hard opponents then may come in handy.

Bolter&Rail wrote:I
...the Yvahra likely always sees a turn even again an army with 6 predators...


jeez. that would be disgusting.

Bolter&Rail wrote:In my opinion you are crazy if not taking a shield gen on the stormsurge.


Seems like the right call. Too many lascannon heavy armies out there.

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Arka0415
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Posts: 1927

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#10 » Oct 19 2017 01:32

zawyvern wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:Once you build a defensive list around a Stormsurge, suddenly it feels... less fun, in a way? The Y'vahra list is of course riskier to play though. What do you think?


Yeah, I've played the gunline for a long time. I want to mix it up a bit. The idea of two stormsurges as an anchor point is fun, but another static gunline just with different units isn't much of a change.

Now, two Stormsurges would be quite the list! I'm not sure how to build it at the moment, but we could probably come up with some list ideas. Are you really thinking about a double Stormsurge list?

zawyvern wrote:
Bolter&Rail wrote:I agree. Shield Gen for a pretty penny on a Yvahra doesnt seem worth it ...


It did seem a pretty hefty tax. Equal to 4 shield drones. Get less wounds and take full damage on a failed save, as opposed to the one mortal wound. But if facing try hard opponents then may come in handy.[/quote
It could, but think about it this way- with a Y'vahra list, your goal will be to have lots of Shield Drones flying around the table, acting as mobile "bunkers" that the Y'vahra can fall back to.

zawyvern
Shas'Saal
Posts: 28

Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#11 » Oct 19 2017 06:24

Arka0415 wrote:Are you really thinking about a double Stormsurge list?

Not seriously, but this is turning into a serious modeling project as well. Who knows…

Arka0415 wrote:It could, but think about it this way- with a Y'vahra list, your goal will be to have lots of Shield Drones flying around the table, acting as mobile "bunkers" that the Y'vahra can fall back to.


Yeah I thought about that, which is why I included some technical drones before. To get some extra wounds back when the chance occurs. But we only have so many turns. I feel like the y'vahra would spend most of the game in or behind the enemy lines.

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Arka0415
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Re: Y'vahra or not?

Post#12 » Oct 19 2017 07:18

zawyvern wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:It could, but think about it this way- with a Y'vahra list, your goal will be to have lots of Shield Drones flying around the table, acting as mobile "bunkers" that the Y'vahra can fall back to.


Yeah I thought about that, which is why I included some technical drones before. To get some extra wounds back when the chance occurs. But we only have so many turns. I feel like the y'vahra would spend most of the game in or behind the enemy lines.

The Technical Dones offer some cool tech to the army but they're also a Heavy Bolter or two away from dead on turn one, that's what I don't like about them. If you could put them in Tactical Drone squads it would be awesome, but you can't...

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