2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

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Pogman
Shas'Saal
Posts: 66

2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#1 » Oct 17 2017 10:57

Hey all,

I've got a league game coming up with limited intel on my opponent (list tailoring is accepted and basically required in this league). All I know is what he told me yesterday in that he runs Tzeentch demons and no Magnus (doesn't like the nipple armor, go figure). I'm not really sure what to expect, but hopefully, this list covers my bases. Any and all advise is welcome. Fireblade and drones are the ones going in the devilfish.


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) ++

+ HQ +

Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit: Drone controller, High-output burst cannon, Missile pod, Shield generator

+ Fast Attack +

Pathfinder Team
6x Pathfinder: 6x Markerlight
Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse pistol

Pathfinder Team
6x Pathfinder: 6x Markerlight
Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse pistol

Pathfinder Team
6x Pathfinder: 6x Markerlight
Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse pistol

Tactical Drones: 11x MV1 Gun Drone

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) ++

+ HQ +

Commander: 4x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV4 Shield Drone

Commander: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV4 Shield Drone

Commander: 4x Burst cannon, 2x MV4 Shield Drone

+ Elites +

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits: 6x MV1 Gun Drone
Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Cyclic ion blaster
Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Cyclic ion blaster
Crisis Shas'vre: 2x Cyclic ion blaster, Drone controller

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) ++

+ HQ +

Cadre Fireblade: Markerlight

Longstrike: 2x Smart missile system, Railgun, 2x Seeker missile

+ Troops +

Strike Team
Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse pistol, Pulse rifle
7x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team
Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse pistol, Pulse rifle
7x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team
Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse pistol, Pulse rifle
7x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

+ Elites +

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits: 2x MV4 Shield Drone
2x Stealth Shas'ui w/o support system: 2x Burst cannon
Stealth Shas'vre: Burst cannon

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits: 2x MV4 Shield Drone
2x Stealth Shas'ui w/o support system: 2x Burst cannon
Stealth Shas'vre: Burst cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

TY7 Devilfish: 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Burst cannon

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
Posts: 109

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#2 » Oct 17 2017 12:18

I know very little about tzeentch daemons so I'll restrict myself to general observations:
Splitting the 11 drone squas up into one of 5 and one of 6 will make morale much less painful.
Avoid a quad burst cannon commander
Daemons' lack of armour and their invuln saves might change this, but an ATS with your CIB commander is usually a good idea. Same goes with the XV8s.
Would the stealth suits be better with homing beacons for the fusion commander? I think so.
With 3 units of 8 firewarriors, I'd consider a cadre fireblade to buff them.

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Pogman
Shas'Saal
Posts: 66

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#3 » Oct 17 2017 12:32

All solid observations. Normally I run the suits/ CIB commander with ATS. However, with most units likely depending on their invul save only (demons being demons) i figured it wouldn't be worth it this time.

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Colt
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 58

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#4 » Oct 17 2017 02:51

Use your drones very smart, a lot of the damage you can take here can be based on Smite spam, your drones will be gold if you use them around commanders or high value units to absorb such damage.
N00bie Wargamer
Army: Fior'Serra Sept Tau 5000 PTS

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Pogman
Shas'Saal
Posts: 66

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#5 » Oct 17 2017 03:28

Colt wrote:Use your drones very smart, a lot of the damage you can take here can be based on Smite spam, your drones will be gold if you use them around commanders or high value units to absorb such damage.


That's actually a question I needed to have resolved. Does savior protocols work the same way with Smite? the folks about my FLGS are a bit split on the matter. I.E. is it like a regular multiwound attack whereby it becomes a single mortal wound for one drone or if smite did 3 wounds would i have to sacrifice 3 drones to eat the whole thing?

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Colt
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 58

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#6 » Oct 17 2017 03:46

Pogman wrote:That's actually a question I needed to have resolved. Does savior protocols work the same way with Smite? the folks about my FLGS are a bit split on the matter. I.E. is it like a regular multiwound attack whereby it becomes a single mortal wound for one drone or if smite did 3 wounds would i have to sacrifice 3 drones to eat the whole thing?


Mortal Wounds deliver the number of damage one by one to the target unit. This means each one of the woulds should be transferred to the drones by using savior protocols. For example if your commander takes a 6 Mortal Wound Smite you can send the first 2 to gun drones and the Commander would keep 4 on him.

Using drones to move between your important units and the psykers will shield the priority units of your army. Your drones will be wiped but that is the idea.
N00bie Wargamer
Army: Fior'Serra Sept Tau 5000 PTS

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1947

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#7 » Oct 17 2017 07:21

Looks like a solid list! Let's just tweak a few things- split the Gun Drones down, fix the Commander loadouts, give the Coldstar an ATS, etc. The suggestions people have given in this thread have been good. Generally Daemons don't have armor saves, do you know if he's running all Daemons or it there are other Tzeench units in there? If it's really all Daemons, Longstrike might want that Ion Cannon instead. Anyway, here goes:

-

HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Cyclic Ion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Cyclic Ion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (156)
HQ - Longstrike w/ Ion Cannon, 2x SMS, 2x Seeker Missiles (242)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Troops - 8x Fire Warriors (64)
Troops - 8x Fire Warriors (64)
Troops - 8x Fire Warriors (64)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons (90)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons (90)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders (56)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders (56)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders (56)
Fast Attack - 5x Gun Drones (40)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total: 2000 - Command Points: 8 (1 Battalion Detachment, 1 Vanguard Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

-

What do you think?

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Pogman
Shas'Saal
Posts: 66

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#8 » Oct 17 2017 08:13

Arka0415 wrote:Looks like a solid list! Let's just tweak a few things- split the Gun Drones down, fix the Commander loadouts, give the Coldstar an ATS, etc. The suggestions people have given in this thread have been good. Generally Daemons don't have armor saves, do you know if he's running all Daemons or it there are other Tzeench units in there? If it's really all Daemons, Longstrike might want that Ion Cannon instead. Anyway, here goes:

-

HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Cyclic Ion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Cyclic Ion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (156)
HQ - Longstrike w/ Ion Cannon, 2x SMS, 2x Seeker Missiles (242)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Troops - 8x Fire Warriors (64)
Troops - 8x Fire Warriors (64)
Troops - 8x Fire Warriors (64)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons (90)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons (90)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders (56)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders (56)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders (56)
Fast Attack - 5x Gun Drones (40)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total: 2000 - Command Points: 8 (1 Battalion Detachment, 1 Vanguard Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

-

What do you think?


I like it! A couple of questions though. First, I don't know what other units he will be running. His declared faction is "chaos demons" for the league, meaning at least 1001 of his 2000 points need to be from the demons army. Other than that, he told me is running "all tzeentch baby" and no Magnus. Thats unfortunately all the intel I have as he has not gotten a game in the league yet.

Second, as to the coldstar's loadout. While I like the ATS, the drone controller was there so that when the swarm of drones gets out of the devilfish, I can jump him in and give them an easy +1 to hit. Additionally, does the ATS make sense in an army that is primarily going to be using it's invul save anyway?

Thanks again for the suggestions! I look forward to hearing your comments.

Larlock
Shas
Posts: 10

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#9 » Oct 18 2017 05:59

If you plan on having a gunline with those firewarriors I would suggest you get some support drones for the pathfinders and put them in the middle with the firewarriors. A pulse accelerator drone for that extra 6" range and a grav inhibitior to help out against charges. I usually throw in two gun drones to make that support drone unit a bit more survivable. If they shoot the drones instead of the firewarriors, fine, they helped your fws survive a bit longer, if they ignore the drones and shoot the gunline, fine. You get +6" range and a real deterrent from them charging you. 3 shots a piece at 18" at st5 is not bad.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1947

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#10 » Oct 18 2017 06:05

Pogman wrote:First, I don't know what other units he will be running. His declared faction is "chaos demons" for the league, meaning at least 1001 of his 2000 points need to be from the demons army. Other than that, he told me is running "all tzeentch baby" and no Magnus. Thats unfortunately all the intel I have as he has not gotten a game in the league yet.

Thanks for the explanation. Since the title was "no Magnus" I assumed this was a usual Thousand Sons player who just wasn't bringing Magnus this time around. If it really is all Daemons though, that changes some things!

Pogman wrote:Second, as to the coldstar's loadout. While I like the ATS, the drone controller was there so that when the swarm of drones gets out of the devilfish, I can jump him in and give them an easy +1 to hit. Additionally, does the ATS make sense in an army that is primarily going to be using it's invul save anyway?

Again, assuming it was mixed Thousand Sons/Daemons, ATS would be great. We won't need it for an all-Daemon army though. We can use the Drone Controller for the extra synergy, or we can use a Target Lock for that massively fast movement. I'll leave that choice to you, both are good!

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Pogman
Shas'Saal
Posts: 66

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#11 » Oct 18 2017 07:14

Arka0415 wrote:
Pogman wrote:First, I don't know what other units he will be running. His declared faction is "chaos demons" for the league, meaning at least 1001 of his 2000 points need to be from the demons army. Other than that, he told me is running "all tzeentch baby" and no Magnus. Thats unfortunately all the intel I have as he has not gotten a game in the league yet.

Thanks for the explanation. Since the title was "no Magnus" I assumed this was a usual Thousand Sons player who just wasn't bringing Magnus this time around. If it really is all Daemons though, that changes some things!


If he's doing just Tzeentch demons, should I just expect like, fateweaver and then just tons of horrors?

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1947

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#12 » Oct 18 2017 11:29

Pogman wrote:If he's doing just Tzeentch demons, should I just expect like, fateweaver and then just tons of horrors?

I guess it depends what edition the army is from. If he's properly updated it to 8th Edition and is bringing a truly competitive 8th Edition list, then expect a deathstar blob of 3-4 Greater Daemons/Lords of Change/Fateweaver, basically a bunch of big psychic birds. Then, on the ground, probably 80 or more Horrors. It'll be fun.

If that's what it is, then... really, I don't know if there's really any way to counter-build that. They ignore our good AP values, we can't deal mortal wounds, we can't block their psychic powers... given how underpowered our index is, it's going to be a really tough fight.

User avatar
Pogman
Shas'Saal
Posts: 66

Re: 2000 pts vs. Tzeentch Demons (no Magnus)

Post#13 » Oct 18 2017 11:53

Arka0415 wrote:
Pogman wrote:If he's doing just Tzeentch demons, should I just expect like, fateweaver and then just tons of horrors?

I guess it depends what edition the army is from. If he's properly updated it to 8th Edition and is bringing a truly competitive 8th Edition list, then expect a deathstar blob of 3-4 Greater Daemons/Lords of Change/Fateweaver, basically a bunch of big psychic birds. Then, on the ground, probably 80 or more Horrors. It'll be fun.

If that's what it is, then... really, I don't know if there's really any way to counter-build that. They ignore our good AP values, we can't deal mortal wounds, we can't block their psychic powers... given how underpowered our index is, it's going to be a really tough fight.


Yeah, i've sort of accepted my fate. Gonna see if i can play the objectives and eek something out.

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