1st ever Krootoxication discussion

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krootoxication
Shas
Posts: 8

1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#1 » Nov 28 2017 06:04

Ladies and fellow male Brushswipers,

Since i've really enjoyed the "Support Drone"'s "newbie input" i'd like to thank the person and or team for putting this up.
ATT's demands seem harsh at first, yet once understood absolutely mandatory (for quality content and also community concerns).
All that being said, I confess to only have read about 23-25 Topics in the Army building / List evaluation Thread.

In the following ill state my sorrows(A-E):

A,GOAL:
Build a 1000pts list only consisting of a single patrol detachement.
//note: this is the given standard for an upcoming tournament I would like to participate in.//

B,EXECUTION:
Ill post two lists:
One(upcoming only referred to as #1) is heavily relying on Alpha Strike and is considered(by me and three local veteran players) a tint more "gambly"
Two(upcoming only referred to as #2) is considered(expl. As seen above) more tactic focussed and versatile

C,POTENTIAL/EXPERIENCE sofar:
//note: #1 has been tested against 2 different Astra Militarium lists (funny human imps in big iron shoeboxes from now on referred to as IMPS) and 3 Blood Angel lists(from now on referred to as BAs) --- therefore #2 will be tested against those 5 lists as soon as possible as well //

#1: i won 4 out of 5 games yet the IMPS are if handled correctly (meatshielding with (very brave)infantry hard to crack.
#2: i would project a similar output given the fact i know the lists im facing. Yet the timeline, gameflow and speed of the game is what im generally interessted in.

D,EXPECTATIONS I have posting this:
1.Point flow anaylisis ("bang for my buck" - tactical approach understood)
2.Outside the Box, yet still somewhat fluffy thoughts on, in YOUR opinion exchangeable units and or models.
3.IF YOU plan on reinventing the wheel in general, meaning rewrite the entire list (#1or#2) , please explain your tactical thought pattern / approach.

E,List #1 and #2 (with tactical notes so you know in what direction my thoughts wander):

----#1----:

"The Alpha Strike"
HQ:
Commander w/4xFusion /2Shield 176pts Commander w/4xFusion /2Shield 176pts
TROOPS:
10 Kroot 60pts
ELITES:
3 Stealth Suits w /2Shield drones /1Shield Generator /Homing Beacon 134pts
4 XV8 Crisis w/3xFlamer 284pts
FAST ATTACK:
11 Vespids w /1 Leader 165pts

TOTAL 995 pts

// notes: "the gamble" is the stealth suits(their homing beacon role is obvious 'm not going to comment on that) and kroot being the only thing on the battlefield, if i don't get first turn (which i didnt in 2 testgames yet always one stealth suit survived). I really found the vespids are more efficient when striking against Tank AND Infantry units when combined with the Commanders 6"reroll bubble compared to the flamer suits. Overall this list is fun until the commanders shielddrones die. //

----#2----

"The RULE"
HQ:
Commander w/4Fusion /2Shield 176pts
Darkstrider 45pts
TROOPS:
10 Breacher w / guardian drone /ds8 missle pod 108pts
ELITES:
Ghostkeel w/CIR /2Flamer /ATS /TL 179pts
Ghostkeel w/CIR /2Flamer /ATS /TL 179pts
FAST ATTACK:
12 Vespids w / 1 Leader 180pts
DEDICATED TRANSPORT:
Devilfish w / seeker missle 132pts

TOTAL 999pts

// notes: Ive read about how the ghostkeel is not worth his points - yet i would like to mention that if read the rule concerning stealth drones carefully, alertness rises, meaning if the two ghostkeels perform duty very close to each other both benefit from one other therefore being hit with a malus of +3 on BS.
!!!!!!!! IF THERE HAVE BEEN ANY ERRATA ON THIS BEING NOT POSSIBLE don't CONSIDER LIST #2 ANYMORE BUT PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ghostkeels will post up on about 24" from enemy tanks and do work.
The devilfish is a distraction carnifex but considering the ghostkeels weakness closecombat, always in striking distance to serve some breacher candy for the possible attacker.
Vespids and Commander pick apart stand alone units and hardhitting range units //


My fellow reader, THANK YOU FOR READING!!!
Yours truly, Krootoxication
Last edited by krootoxication on Nov 28 2017 06:34, edited 1 time in total.

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krootoxication
Shas
Posts: 8

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#2 » Nov 28 2017 06:33

!Update!
We just finished a Game with #2 vs BAs (flyers and deepstrike heavy list) and won by the end of my 3rd turn. BAs stole initiative yet only took out the devilfish not harming the embarked squad or HQ. It all comes down to wether this rule is valid.
Kind regards
Krootoxication

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2201

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#3 » Nov 28 2017 09:23

Hello Krootoxication! Welcome to ATT.

First, let me answer your rules question:
krootoxication wrote:notes: Ive read about how the ghostkeel is not worth his points - yet i would like to mention that if read the rule concerning stealth drones carefully, alertness rises, meaning if the two ghostkeels perform duty very close to each other both benefit from one other therefore being hit with a malus of +3 on BS.
!!!!!!!! IF THERE HAVE BEEN ANY ERRATA ON THIS BEING NOT POSSIBLE don't CONSIDER LIST #2 ANYMORE BUT PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sadly, Ghostkeels don't work like this. The rule says "a Stealth Drone". It does not say "each Stealth Drone". So, even if the Ghostkeel has 1,000 Stealth Drones, the debuff (malus) is only -2. So, Ghostkeels only have a maximum of -2 to hit.

krootoxication wrote:HQ:
Commander w/4xFusion /2Shield 176pts Commander w/4xFusion /2Shield 176pts
TROOPS:
10 Kroot 60pts
ELITES:
3 Stealth Suits w /2Shield drones /1Shield Generator /Homing Beacon 134pts
4 XV8 Crisis w/3xFlamer 284pts
FAST ATTACK:
11 Vespids w /1 Leader 165pts

TOTAL 995 pts

This is an interesting list! However, there are two important things to change.

First, make your XV8 squad only have 3 models. Then add 6 Gun Drones to the squad. This will make the XV8s much harder to kill. The squad will also cost fewer points.

Second, your Vespid squad is too large. You will lose models because of morale. So, try making two squads of 6 Vespids each.

Finally, this list does not cost 995 points- it costs fewer points actually! So you can add more units.

Try this list:

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
Troops - 10x Kroot Carnivores (60)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, Shield Generator, Homing Beacon; 2x Shield Drones (134)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 9x Flamers; 6x Gun Drones (255)
Fast Attack - 6x Vespid Stingwings (90)
Fast Attack - 6x Vespid Stingwings (90)

Total: 805

This list is only 805 points, so you can spend 195 more points! What other models do you have?

krootoxication wrote:HQ:
Commander w/4Fusion /2Shield 176pts
Darkstrider 45pts
TROOPS:
10 Breacher w / guardian drone /ds8 missle pod 108pts
ELITES:
Ghostkeel w/CIR /2Flamer /ATS /TL 179pts
Ghostkeel w/CIR /2Flamer /ATS /TL 179pts
FAST ATTACK:
12 Vespids w / 1 Leader 180pts
DEDICATED TRANSPORT:
Devilfish w / seeker missle 132pts

TOTAL 999pts

This list is interesting! However, we need to make two Vespid squads (like list #1). Also, you can remove the Support Turret, Guardian Drone, and Seeker Missile. This saves you 33 points. Maybe buy a Markerlight and two more Vespid?

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krootoxication
Shas
Posts: 8

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#4 » Nov 29 2017 01:43

Dear Arka0415

First of all thank you a lot for the well through thought answer. First answer to you question what to do with 195 points - ill go with a ghostkeel to support anti tank with CIK and ATS and TL.

Second ill post the text i have on the stealth drones and, i hate to do it but i don't agree 100% with you.

""Stealth Field: Models shooting at a Stealth Drone or any Ghostkeel Battlesuit that is within 3" of any friendly Stealth Drones subtract 1 from their hit rolls (This is cumulative with the Ghostkeel Electrowarfare Suite ability).""

I hope you guys have a very productive day and im happy for answers as usual,

yours truly
Krootoxication

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Arka0415
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Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#5 » Nov 29 2017 03:05

krootoxication wrote:First of all thank you a lot for the well through thought answer. First answer to you question what to do with 195 points - ill go with a ghostkeel to support anti tank with CIK and ATS and TL.

You can't, remember? You can only have 0-2 Elites choices in a Patrol Detachment, and the Ghostkeel would be your 3rd Elites choice.

krootoxication wrote:Second ill post the text i have on the stealth drones and, i hate to do it but i don't agree 100% with you.

"Stealth Field: Models shooting at a Stealth Drone or any Ghostkeel Battlesuit that is within 3" of any friendly Stealth Drones subtract 1 from their hit rolls (This is cumulative with the Ghostkeel Electrowarfare Suite ability)."

I understand, but it's not about opinions though. The rules are very clear. It says:

"...within 3" of any Stealth Drones..."

"Any" means "a whole number that is not zero".

If there is one Stealth Drone, then the enemy subtracts 1 from their hit rolls.

If there are six Stealth Drones, then the enemy still subtracts 1 from their hit rolls.

If there are nine hundred Stealth Drones, then the enemy still subtracts 1 from their hit rolls.

It's not "-1 per Stealth Drone." It's "-1 if there are any Stealth Drones."

By the way:

krootoxication wrote:We just finished a Game with #2 vs BAs (flyers and deepstrike heavy list) and won by the end of my 3rd turn. BAs stole initiative yet only took out the devilfish not harming the embarked squad or HQ. It all comes down to wether this rule is valid.

It's possible to destroy a transport, and not harm the embarked squad. Remember that you roll a D6 for each model in the transport- for each 1 you roll, a model is destroyed!

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krootoxication
Shas
Posts: 8

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#6 » Nov 29 2017 04:59

Thank you again fot the good answer.
Shoot i overlooked the elite slots - so ill go with a second commander (4x fusion 2xshield).

Still what list do you see in your personal opinion perform better?

Thank you again and i didnt mean any harm.

Yours truly
Krootoxication

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JancoBCN
Shas'Saal
Posts: 25

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#7 » Nov 29 2017 05:25

Welcome to ATT, Krootoxication!

I have a couple points to make on some of the discussion topics:

1. Regarding this comment:

Arka0415 wrote:Finally, this list does not cost 995 points- it costs fewer points actually! So you can add more units.


I think this is caused by the one line writing of the initial part of list #1, and I quote:
Krootoxication wrote:HQ:
Commander w/4xFusion /2Shield 176pts Commander w/4xFusion /2Shield 176pts


There are 2 QuadFusion commanders, not just 1. So, there are the 176 missing points to get your 995.

2. My other point is regarding the Stealth Drone rule. I think that Arka is indeed correct, but this is sadly not about opinions, but rules. If his argument
Arka0415 wrote:It says:

"...within 3" of any Stealth Drones..."

"Any" means "a whole number that is not zero".

If there is one Stealth Drone, then the enemy subtracts 1 from their hit rolls.

If there are six Stealth Drones, then the enemy still subtracts 1 from their hit rolls.

If there are nine hundred Stealth Drones, then the enemy still subtracts 1 from their hit rolls.

It's not "-1 per Stealth Drone." It's "-1 if there are any Stealth Drones."

is not enough for you (and I think it is pretty clear), let me show you an interesting FAQ from the Warhammer 40k Rulebook from 8th edition regarding those kinds of rules:
Q: Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with
identical aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range.

WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK Official Update Version 1.1, page 3, UNIT AND WEAPON ABILITIES section


Finally, about your lists, I have to agree with Arka too, The 6xGun drones on your 3man Flamer Crisis team is key, for these reasons:
- compare 24 S5 shots at BS4+ (if you equip one of the suits with Drone Controller) against an average 10.5 S4 direct hits from the 3 flamers (or 14 if you take into account the Flamer you have to drop to add the DC).
- with the drones' carbines you have also the possibility to drop the Crisis team without the Beacon and still shoot at 18" range. You can use that in case that the opponent manage to get rid of your Homing Beacon T1, or you are more interested in use that for a Fusion Commader to pop some key vehicle or monster from Melta Range.
- you will have 2 units instead of 1, so it will provide you that added flexibility (objective grapping, multi charging to shooty units)
- all of this (and much more) while saving 25 points (-69 of the Suit, -9 of another flamer, +5 for the DC and +48 from the 6 drones).
- Of course you are making another victory point for your opponent, and you need to have more space when droping with the homing beacon, but I think thses are minor drawbacks to the point.

Regarding the Ghostkeel and Vespids, I don't have any experience, so I will not speak for nothing. I am also not familiar at all designing 1000p lists, and neither playing them, so that will be it for me. :biggrin:


I hope I made all clear and I will be pleased to read any answers or further discussion on this thread!

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krootoxication
Shas
Posts: 8

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#8 » Nov 29 2017 09:46

Another great analysis. Thank you.

So moving on from here i have a new "in between" both lists (seen above compare to #1 and #2):

I call it:

"THE ATT GROUP EFFORT TOURNAMENT WINNER"


HQ
Commander (4xfusion,2xshield) 176pts
TROOPS
10 Kroot 60pts
ELITES
Ghostkeel (ATS,TL, 2xflamer,2xCIR) 179pts
5 Crisis (1xDC,6xBurstCanon,6xCIR,10xGunDrones) 463pts

// note: Now im stuck like absolutely //

Adding 8 Vespids would total at 998 pts

Im not bound on Kroot so if we go with strike team we have exactly 142 points to play around with, if we don't invest in vespids.

Id like to know if YOU approve of this "Core build" sofar and cant wait for good approaches.

Lastly id like to state that i really enjoy this forum here, well done everybody!

Yours truly,
Krootoxication

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Arka0415
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Posts: 2201

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#9 » Nov 29 2017 10:08

krootoxication wrote:
"THE ATT GROUP EFFORT TOURNAMENT WINNER"

HQ
Commander (4xfusion,2xshield) 176pts
TROOPS
10 Kroot 60pts
ELITES
Ghostkeel (ATS,TL, 2xflamer,2xCIR) 179pts
5 Crisis (1xDC,6xBurstCanon,6xCIR,10xGunDrones) 463pts

Adding 8 Vespids would total at 998 pts

Im not bound on Kroot so if we go with strike team we have exactly 142 points to play around with, if we don't invest in vespids.

Id like to know if YOU approve of this "Core build" sofar and cant wait for good approaches.


Hey, you deleted all of the good units except for the Commander. Why?

The Flamer XV8s and Stealthsuits were very good units. Your 5x XV8 unit is ineffective- the Gun Drones will die because of morale, and Burst Cannons are very weak on XV8s.

If you want Ion weapons like on the Ghostkeel, let's try a Commander with Cyclic Ion Blasters. We can also add a few Markerlights. Here's a list:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, ATS; 2x Marker Drones (158)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)
Troops - 10x Kroot Carnivores (60)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, Markerlight & Target Lock, Homing Beacon (119)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 9x Flamers; 6x Gun Drones (255)
Fast Attack - 6x Vespid Stingwings (90)
Fast Attack - 6x Vespid Stingwings (90)

Total: 999 - Command Points: 3 (Patrol Detachment)

-

What do you think?

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krootoxication
Shas
Posts: 8

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#10 » Nov 29 2017 10:19

Love it.
But please explain to me how and why we should use markerlights at all? I mean i get it for the overcharge but any other then that?
The morale i keep forgetting guess its been a while since 5th edition.
Commanders i think ive read that several times in other threads " are more useful with fusion ".
You do not think a ghostkeel is any good right? And i don't mean that negative at all.

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Arka0415
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Posts: 2201

Re: 1st ever Krootoxication discussion

Post#11 » Nov 29 2017 07:55

krootoxication wrote:But please explain to me how and why we should use markerlights at all? I mean i get it for the overcharge but any other then that?

Markerlights make your Commanders much more accurate (5/6 < 35/36) and make Overcharge safer. Honestly, adding a squad of Pathfinders would be a good idea, so you can use the new Uplinked Markerlight stratagem. Maybe like this:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, ATS; 2x Marker Drones (158)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 10x Kroot Carnivores (60)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ Fusion Blaster, 2x Burst Cannons, Homing Beacon (121)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 9x Flamers; 6x Gun Drones (255)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders w/ 4x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifles (68)
Fast Attack - 7x Vespid Stingwings (105)

Total: 1002 - Command Points: 3 (Patrol Detachment)

-

Just another option.

krootoxication wrote:Commanders i think ive read that several times in other threads " are more useful with fusion ".
You do not think a ghostkeel is any good right? And i don't mean that negative at all.

Commanders are very good with Fusion, and very good with Cyclic Ion Blasters too! These weapons have different roles. Ghostkeels are good, but this is a small game where you can only have 2 Elites choices. So, the XV8s and Stealthsuits are better.

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