1000 Points Optimized List

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SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 187

1000 Points Optimized List

Post#1 » Dec 05 2017 06:59

So far in 8e, I have not won a single proper game with tau. I reckon it is time for that to change.

The List:

SUPREME COMMAND:

Commander:
4x Fusion Blasters, 2x Shield Drones (176)

Commander:
4x Fusion Blasters (160)

Coldstar Commander:
ATS, Shield Generator (150)

Commander:
3x CIB, ATS (138)

OUTRIDER:

Commander:
3x CIB, Drone Controller (135)

Fireblade (42)

Gun Drones x10 (80)

Gun Drones x10 (80)


Pathfinders x5 (40)

Pathfinders x5 (40)



Thoughts?

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2201

Re: 1000 Points Optimized List

Post#2 » Dec 05 2017 09:36

SniperTau wrote:So far in 8e, I have not won a single proper game with tau. I reckon it is time for that to change.

Let's change that then! :biggrin:

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In your list, the biggest thing to change will be those massive Drone squads. Morale losses will ruin them. Let's split those squads into smaller units. In addition, there's a good chance that our Fusion Commanders will be working independently, so it's important that they each have drones to increase their durability. I'm also going to copy the DC Commander loadout on to the other CIB Commander, so you can have more range on your +1 to-hit bonus.

Also, it looks to me that your list is actually 1040+ points, so I'm going to shrink it a little to fit into a 1000-point game.

Anyway, here's how I'd write this list:

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HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller (135)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller (135)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders (40)

Total: 1014 - Command Points: 5 (1 Supreme Command Detachment, 2 Outrider Detachments)

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We're still 14 points over, so we need to trim a little. You could lose one Gun Drone squad and add a couple more Drones here and there, or you could give one Commander a Shield Generator instead of a single Fusion Blaster, or you could drop the Pathfinders entirely and go for more Gun Drones (that's what I'd do).

What do you think?

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SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 187

Re: 1000 Points Optimized List

Post#3 » Dec 05 2017 10:19

Removing the pathfinders gives me a lack of markerlights, so I want them to stay. A Fusion Blaster off could work, but that isn't quite optimal, as I have not much antitank to start with bar the QFC's. Another thing to do would be to remove the cadre fireblade and pop in another three pathfinders. That I believe saves 18 Points, so we have 4 points extra and more markerlights.

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demurr
Shas
Posts: 23

Re: 1000 Points Optimized List

Post#4 » Dec 06 2017 12:53

SniperTau wrote:Another thing to do would be to remove the cadre fireblade and pop in another three pathfinders. That I believe saves 18 Points, so we have 4 points extra and more markerlights.


With this many drones you want to have a cadre fireblade among them for thhose additional shots at half range. His presence really pushes the drone's usefulness to the max =)

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2201

Re: 1000 Points Optimized List

Post#5 » Dec 06 2017 03:25

SniperTau wrote:Removing the pathfinders gives me a lack of markerlights, so I want them to stay. A Fusion Blaster off could work, but that isn't quite optimal, as I have not much antitank to start with bar the QFC's. Another thing to do would be to remove the cadre fireblade and pop in another three pathfinders. That I believe saves 18 Points, so we have 4 points extra and more markerlights.

You have two Fusion Commanders, that's a colossal amount of anti-tank. Definitely don't worry about that. At any rate, you're trying to get 1-2 Markerlight hits on 1-2 units each turn. Frankly, the Fireblade is probably enough, and maybe some Marker Drones buried in the Drone squads? You could try a list like this:

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HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller (135)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller (135)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42) [Warlord, Exemplar of Mont'ka]
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)

Total: 1004 - Command Points: 4 (1 Supreme Command Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

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We also could try Emberkhan's recent Markerlight-independent Fusion Commander idea, to shave some points. That list might look like this:

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HQ - Commander w/ 3x Fusion Blasters, Multi-Tracker; 2x Shield Drones (157)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Fusion Blasters, Multi-Tracker; 2x Shield Drones (157)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller (135)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller (135)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42) [Warlord, Exemplar of Mont'ka]
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)

Total: 998 - Command Points: 5 (1 Supreme Command Detachment, 2 Outrider Detachments)

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Or we could add a few Missile Pods and hope to add some longer-range firepower into this 18"-heavy army:

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HQ - Commander w/ 3x Fusion Blasters, Multi-Tracker; 2x Shield Drones (157)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Fusion Blasters, Multi-Tracker; 2x Shield Drones (157)
HQ - Commander w/ 2x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Missile Pod, Drone Controller (141)
HQ - Commander w/ 2x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Missile Pod, Drone Controller (141)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Output Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42) [Warlord, Exemplar of Mont'ka]
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (42)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)
Fast Attack - 4x Gun Drones (32)

Total: 1000 - Command Points: 5 (1 Supreme Command Detachment, 2 Outrider Detachments)

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Something like that? Just brainstorming here.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 442

Re: 1000 Points Optimized List

Post#6 » Dec 06 2017 11:18

I recommend using 1 QFC, 2 3xCIB+ats/DC and a coldstar. If you'r enot sold on coldstar, go with a third CIB commander. You won't need more than one QFC to handle the big stuff and TRUST me the CIB commanders will mop up anything big that is left over. Have a fireblade with the gun drones for sure. Hide a marker drone in a few squads or pathfinders WAYYY in the back. For 1000 points your opponent generally won't concern themselves with the down range pathfinders in cover if you deploy the QFC and CIB's really far up.

Remember, if you're shooting t4, t7, t8 or ANYTHYING with multiple wounds, overcharge your CIB's. Even if it means your commanders life. Roll the CIB's separately so you don't hose yourself/opponent since you can only take 1 MW per weapon.

Let us know what you try and how it goes!

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SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 187

Re: 1000 Points Optimized List

Post#7 » Dec 06 2017 06:27

Arka, I reckon the first list is best. This edition we do excel in the 18" range bracket, and I really don't need that many markerlights, especially with our new stratagem. I will post up a batrep when I get the chance to use the list.


Tau'va

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2201

Re: 1000 Points Optimized List

Post#8 » Dec 06 2017 09:29

Yojimbob wrote:I recommend using 1 QFC, 2 3xCIB+ats/DC and a coldstar. If you'r enot sold on coldstar, go with a third CIB commander. You won't need more than one QFC to handle the big stuff and TRUST me the CIB commanders will mop up anything big that is left over. Have a fireblade with the gun drones for sure. Hide a marker drone in a few squads or pathfinders WAYYY in the back. For 1000 points your opponent generally won't concern themselves with the down range pathfinders in cover if you deploy the QFC and CIB's really far up.

I'd agree with you, but 1000 points is pretty big. It's not hard at all (and in fact, it's rather competitive) to bring huge super-heavies in 1000-point games. If the opponent brings an Imperial Knight, will those CIB Commanders be enough?

SniperTau wrote:Arka, I reckon the first list is best. This edition we do excel in the 18" range bracket, and I really don't need that many markerlights, especially with our new stratagem.

Try it out then! Remember that with all of these 18" weapons, the more aggressive you are, the better! And for the Markerlights, just try to get one hit on 1-2 targers each turn. If you need to advance and shoot, use the stratagem and hope you can turn one hit into three.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 442

Re: 1000 Points Optimized List

Post#9 » Dec 07 2017 11:00

Arka0415 wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:I recommend using 1 QFC, 2 3xCIB+ats/DC and a coldstar. If you'r enot sold on coldstar, go with a third CIB commander. You won't need more than one QFC to handle the big stuff and TRUST me the CIB commanders will mop up anything big that is left over. Have a fireblade with the gun drones for sure. Hide a marker drone in a few squads or pathfinders WAYYY in the back. For 1000 points your opponent generally won't concern themselves with the down range pathfinders in cover if you deploy the QFC and CIB's really far up.

I'd agree with you, but 1000 points is pretty big. It's not hard at all (and in fact, it's rather competitive) to bring huge super-heavies in 1000-point games. If the opponent brings an Imperial Knight, will those CIB Commanders be enough?


Shooting Imperial Knight
3CIB w/ats
=6*(((5/6)+((5/6)*(1/6)))*(3/6)*(4/6)*2) = 3.889 expected damage
4 fusion
=4*(((5/6)+((5/6)*(1/6)))*(3/6)*(4/6)*3.5) = 4.537 expected damage

Not much between the two as far as expected damage on a knight because of 3+/5++ but against landraiders CIB's get hurt pretty badly compared to fusion. Obviously though with rerolls and the relic we can expect the fusion damage to spike much much higher. My presumption was that anything less than a damage of 2 or 3 with the CIB would be rerolled and that andything less than a damage of 3 on fusion would be rerolled. Should net some pretty good damage but as we can see we shouldn't expect either of these to bring a knight down in a single volley of fire, let alone even two. It gets kinda nuts with fusion being within 9" and the roll twice for damage pick the highest with rerolls so I didn't do the math.

3CIB w/ats w/ single wound reroll and damage reroll (CP and relic)
=(5*(((5/6)+((5/6)*(1/6)))*((3/6)+((3/6)*(3/6)))*(4/6)*2))+(((5/6)+((5/6)*(1/6)))*((3/6)+((3/6)*(3/6)))*(4/6)*(((4/6)+((2/6)*(4/6)))*2)) = 5.725 expected damage
4 fusion w/ single wound reroll and damage reroll (CP and relic)
=(3*(((5/6)+((5/6)*(1/6)))*((3/6)+((3/6)*(3/6)))*(4/6)*3.5))+(((5/6)+((5/6)*(1/6)))*((3/6)+((3/6)*(3/6)))*(4/6)*(((4/6)+((2/6)*(4/6)))*3.5)) = 6.617 expected damage

Fusion is obviously better in this specific case but I just prefer the flexibility the CIB offers after you bring the knight down. then you probably need to clear chaff and when you have 8 meltas, you're just not clearing it fast enough. We should expect to bring the knight down a notch(or two!) with one decent volley of fire from 1 QFC and 2 CIB commanders alone. The knight becomes significantly less impactful from this point on and that's assuming you don't follow it up with anything else and just make it dead. Less overkill this way and you get the opportunity to mop up lots of people with 6 CIB's instead of only 3.

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