My First Tournament List! (600pts)

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Zadocfish
Shas'Saal
Posts: 25

My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#1 » Dec 27 2017 02:16

So, my FLGS is having a 600 pt Tournament at the end of January! The theme is "Start Collecting." You get one Victory Point per game by using all of the models in a Start Collecting set in your force. If you bring a named character, your opponent gains one Victory Point for killing it. It's going to be 3 v 3 (or 2 v 2) with matchups decided by dice rolls.

I play Tau. Our SC box has AMAZING value, but it is REALLY REALLY BAD in tournament play because it contains Crisis Suits. I figured I should make my own, forgoing the theme.

So, I made this list:

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(597 pts) Battalion Detachment

HQ

Commander, 4x Fusion, 2x Shield Drones

Commander, 3x Cyclic Ion Blaster, 1x ATS, 2x Shield Drones (Warlord; Puretide Engram Chip, Exemplar of Mont'ka)

Cadre Fireblade, 2x Gun Drone

Troops

Strike Team, 6x Fire Warriors, 1x Shas'ui w/Markerlight

Strike Team, 4x Fire Warriors, 1x Shas'ui w/Markerlight

Strike Team, 4x Fire Warriors, 1x Shas'ui w/Markerlight

Fast Attack

Tactical Drones, 8x Gun Drones

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I figure that this list gives me the three main foodgroups of 40K: anti-infantry (Strikers/Drones/Fireblade), anti-Elite (CIB), and anti-tank (Commander). I castle up with the Fireblade and friends, possibly with the CIB Commander nearby for Mont'Ka or, if desperate, Kauy'on, while my Fusion Commander pops in to shoot down the heaviest thing the opponent brings. I know I lack the necessary Stealth Suits for maximum usage of the Fusion Commander, but I don't think I had room for them... Also, 6 Command Points and regaining one on a roll of 6 is pretty neat.

So yeah, lots and lots of shooting crammed into as small a number of points as I could manage. I think that the drastic increase in efficiency outweighs the loss of a Victory Point, right?

I'd really appreciate any C & C.
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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2679

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#2 » Dec 28 2017 09:04

You're right that forgoing the Start Collecting kit and taking the loss of a Victory Point is a good idea, our kit just isn't good enough. You have a great list here, and I think it will do well.

I think, though, that the larger Gun Drone blob isn't quite viable, so maybe split them into two squads? And maybe do 6/6/5 for the Fire Warrior squads instead of 7/5/5? These are only tiny changes but they might be viable.

What do you think?

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Zadocfish
Shas'Saal
Posts: 25

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#3 » Dec 29 2017 12:03

Yeah... 2 units of 4 would be more versatile, and less in danger of morale as well. As for the 6/6/5 configuration... probably a good idea, but my idea with the 7/5/5 formation is meant to have the two fives at the left and right flanks of the Fireblade while the larger seven forms up just ahead of him; I figure that would be a good idea for protecting him. Also having one unit larger than the others forms a bigger, more predictable target, depending on the opponents' weaponry.

Thank you for the suggestions!
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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2679

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#4 » Dec 29 2017 08:27

Zadocfish wrote:As for the 6/6/5 configuration... probably a good idea, but my idea with the 7/5/5 formation is meant to have the two fives at the left and right flanks of the Fireblade while the larger seven forms up just ahead of him; I figure that would be a good idea for protecting him. Also having one unit larger than the others forms a bigger, more predictable target, depending on the opponents' weaponry.

That's actually a good idea- I'll remember that one. Good luck with the tournament!

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Zadocfish
Shas'Saal
Posts: 25

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#5 » Jan 03 2018 06:25

Also kinda thinking of replacing the CIB Commander with another Fusion Commander. Honestly, every SC box has at least one heavy vehicle and one character I would love to kill in one go... and, if other armies go off-theme like mine, they will ALL have some REALLY dangerous stuff in them. D3 damage just doesn't cut it on most multi-wound models... I would have to drop 1 Marklight and 2 Warriors, but the extra damage could make a massive difference in a game.
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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 480

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#6 » Jan 05 2018 08:59

Zadocfish wrote:Also kinda thinking of replacing the CIB Commander with another Fusion Commander. Honestly, every SC box has at least one heavy vehicle and one character I would love to kill in one go... and, if other armies go off-theme like mine, they will ALL have some REALLY dangerous stuff in them. D3 damage just doesn't cut it on most multi-wound models... I would have to drop 1 Marklight and 2 Warriors, but the extra damage could make a massive difference in a game.


I really do not recommend this. Stick with what you have since the ROF on the CIB commander is better for clearing light armored hordes/elites which most boxes have some form of. Fusion would clear out multiwound things well but you only have 4 shots and fusion don't shine on multiwound unless they have a great save or 3 or more wounds. Stick with the CIB and you won't be disappointed.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2679

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#7 » Jan 05 2018 10:18

Yojimbob wrote:
Zadocfish wrote:Also kinda thinking of replacing the CIB Commander with another Fusion Commander. Honestly, every SC box has at least one heavy vehicle and one character I would love to kill in one go... and, if other armies go off-theme like mine, they will ALL have some REALLY dangerous stuff in them. D3 damage just doesn't cut it on most multi-wound models... I would have to drop 1 Marklight and 2 Warriors, but the extra damage could make a massive difference in a game.


I really do not recommend this. Stick with what you have since the ROF on the CIB commander is better for clearing light armored hordes/elites which most boxes have some form of. Fusion would clear out multiwound things well but you only have 4 shots and fusion don't shine on multiwound unless they have a great save or 3 or more wounds. Stick with the CIB and you won't be disappointed.

None of the Start Collecting sets include a large vehicle or monster, to the extent of my knowledge. However, if there are any WAAC players around I'm sure they would happily take the 1-VP penalty and grab an Imperial Knight or a Primarch or something. Assuming no one does that, I think CIBs are they way to go in this kind of tournament.

However, some of the Start Collecting sets contain things like Trygons and Leman Russes. CIBs might not be enough about that kind of threat.

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Bel'kro
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 299

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#8 » Jan 05 2018 10:41

At 500 points I run the following list.

Patrol Detachment (495) :
HQ (176)
Commander (176) :
1x Commander, 4x Fusion Blasters.
2x MV4 Shield Drones, Shield Generator.

Elite (239)
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team (239) :
1x XV8 Shas’Vre, 3x Flamers.
2x XV8 Shas’Ui, 3x Flamers.
4x MV4 Shield Drones, Shield Generator.

Troop (80)
Firewarrior Breacher Team (40) :
1x Firewarrior Shas’Ui, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.
4x Firewarrior Shas’La, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.

Firewarrior Breacher Team (40) :
1x Firewarrior Shas’Ui, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.
4x Firewarrior Shas’La, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.


In my experience it can quite comfortably deal with everything at this point level, so if I were to increase it to 600 points, these are the changes I would make.

Battallion Detachment (596) :
HQ (221)
Commander (176) :
1x Commander, 4x Fusion Blasters.
2x MV4 Shield Drones, Shield Generator.

Ethereal (45) :
1x Ethereal, Honour Blade.

Elite (255)
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team (255) :
1x XV8 Shas’Vre, 3x Flamers.
2x XV8 Shas’Ui, 3x Flamers.
6x MV4 Shield Drones, Shield Generator.

Troop (120)
Firewarrior Breacher Team (40) :
1x Firewarrior Shas’Ui, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.
4x Firewarrior Shas’La, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.

Firewarrior Breacher Team (40) :
1x Firewarrior Shas’Ui, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.
4x Firewarrior Shas’La, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.

Firewarrior Breacher Team (40) :
1x Firewarrior Shas’Ui, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.
4x Firewarrior Shas’La, Pulse Blaster, Photon Grenades.


The addition of an ethereal means that not only do you not lose a victory point, but you can now use sense of stone and zephyr's grace to make your breachers more survivable or mobile, access to reroll ones, and it gives you a battalion detachment with lots of low ap firepower!
W:2 L:4 D:2

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2679

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#9 » Jan 05 2018 11:22

I like the use of XV8s in your list, Bel'kro, however the majority of the army is likely irrelevant on turn one due to short ranges. The Breachers probably won't be in range of anything, and the Flamers definitely won't be, this leaves you to shoot only with the Commander. At low points values it's vitally important for everything to stay relevant in every turn, I think. Trying to fit everything in might be hard, but here's a stab at it:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 3x Fusion Blasters, Shield Generator; 2x Gun Drones (163)
HQ - Ethereal w/ Honor Blade (45)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (43)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 6x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306)

Total: 600 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

-

The Commander going down to three Fusion Blasters is a loss, but I feel like the points savings are necessary; I'm not sure where else we could drop 16 points, except a pair of Gun Drones on the XV8 squad.

What do you think?

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Bel'kro
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 299

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#10 » Jan 05 2018 11:46

I agree that forgoing a turn of shooting can be detrimental to the overall performance of the army, but I have also found the durability afforded by saviour protocols means you can afford to lose a turn of shooting at lower points levels to pack more of a punch in the next turn. Your opponent will also tend to focus on the flamer suits directly in front of him rather than your short ranged infantry, which gives them a chance to get close unharmed.

However, an easy way to ensure your army remained relevant on turn 1 would be to swap breachers for strike teams, and the ethereal for a cadre fireblade. Although we're now back to minus 1 victory point.
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Zadocfish
Shas'Saal
Posts: 25

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#11 » Jan 05 2018 12:37

Arka0415 wrote:I like the use of XV8s in your list, Bel'kro, however the majority of the army is likely irrelevant on turn one due to short ranges. The Breachers probably won't be in range of anything, and the Flamers definitely won't be, this leaves you to shoot only with the Commander. At low points values it's vitally important for everything to stay relevant in every turn, I think. Trying to fit everything in might be hard, but here's a stab at it:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 3x Fusion Blasters, Shield Generator; 2x Gun Drones (163)
HQ - Ethereal w/ Honor Blade (45)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (43)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 6x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306)

Total: 600 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

-

The Commander going down to three Fusion Blasters is a loss, but I feel like the points savings are necessary; I'm not sure where else we could drop 16 points, except a pair of Gun Drones on the XV8 squad.

What do you think?


That looks fun! But... honestly, given how much more efficient the Commander is, I would probably want another Commander instead of XV8s if I wasn't specifically seeking that sweet, sweet VP. If I was going with XV8s, I would probably run them with Plasma Rifles so I could put that 4th Fusion Blaster on the Commander.

Also, the rules for getting the VP are to include the SC box contents "as listed on the box." As in, the only thing you can change up is the weapon loadout; the XV8s MUST be fielded with 6 drones, the Warriors MUST be fielded with 2 Drones and a Support Turret, the Etherial MUST be on a Hover Drone. That's what kills the challenge for me...

Thanks for all the suggestions so far! Though, come to think of it... isn't that last 600 point list Arka posted functionally identical to my original list, but with less Firewarriors, an Etherial instead of a Fireblade, and with a CIB XV8 team instead of a CIB Commander? Since the Strikers are split into 2 groups, I still wouldn't get the VP, and since the Crisis suits only kill 1 more model than a Commander on average, the extra Fire Warrior team I could bring would probably make a bigger difference in the average game, I think.

Bel'kro wrote:I agree that forgoing a turn of shooting can be detrimental to the overall performance of the army, but I have also found the durability afforded by saviour protocols means you can afford to lose a turn of shooting at lower points levels to pack more of a punch in the next turn. Your opponent will also tend to focus on the flamer suits directly in front of him rather than your short ranged infantry, which gives them a chance to get close unharmed.

However, an easy way to ensure your army remained relevant on turn 1 would be to swap breachers for strike teams, and the ethereal for a cadre fireblade. Although we're now back to minus 1 victory point.


Very true.
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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2679

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#12 » Jan 05 2018 11:59

Zadocfish wrote:That looks fun! But... honestly, given how much more efficient the Commander is, I would probably want another Commander instead of XV8s if I wasn't specifically seeking that sweet, sweet VP. If I was going with XV8s, I would probably run them with Plasma Rifles so I could put that 4th Fusion Blaster on the Commander.

The idea was just to make a list using the models in the Start Collecting kit. I agree that Commanders are better though.

Zadocfish wrote:Also, the rules for getting the VP are to include the SC box contents "as listed on the box." As in, the only thing you can change up is the weapon loadout; the XV8s MUST be fielded with 6 drones, the Warriors MUST be fielded with 2 Drones and a Support Turret, the Etherial MUST be on a Hover Drone. That's what kills the challenge for me...

Wait, what? That's insane, that's way too narrow. Take the -1 VP. Let's just spam Commanders.

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x CIBs, ATS; 2x Gun Drones (164)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x CIBs, ATS; 2x Gun Drones (164)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)

Total: 597 - Command Points: 4 (1 Supreme Command Detachment, 1 Patrol Detachment)

-

That should be fun. :D What do you think?

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Zadocfish
Shas'Saal
Posts: 25

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#13 » Jan 06 2018 01:36

LOL yeah, that's what I was thinking about the VP condition. Our box is incredibly inefficient for the points... I'm all for Commander Spam, but I'm actually not in love with CIB Commanders. They seem to function okay-ish, but CIBs are a purchase in and of themselves, and well...

See, against something of T8, a Fusion Commander will outperform a CIB Commander... the same goes for any given model with multiple wounds and a good armor save, such as TEQ. A CIB Commander and a Fusion Commander will kill the same number of TEQ units per turn on average... Against MEQ, CIBs only give you 1 extra kill on average, and it comes at the cost of not being able to utterly shred heavies like Fusions can. Like seriously, against a Tyrannofex, a Fusion Commander deals a little over 5 wounds per turn (OUTSIDE of Melta range), whereas a CIB Commander Overcharging deals 3, with the added risk of Mortal Wounds. The only benefit that the CIBs bring against armored/multi-wound enemies is SLIGHTLY lower point cost, a total difference of around 19 points, and those points are channeled directly into killing power.

Even against a T6 multi-wound critter like a Trygon, an Overcharging CIB Commander only deals about 4 wounds, a non-overcharge attack yields 3, and a Fusion Commander nets you around 7, enough to push it to a lower tier of functionality. (sorry all my points of reference are Tyranids, that's just what I usually play against)

Meanwhile, if the argument is that CIBs are better against GEQs, well... a 4x Burst Commander kills the same number for an even smaller number of points, and a troop of Fire Warriors and a Fireblade will outperform the CIB or Burst Commander point-for-point against that enemy configuration as well.

I guess I'm saying I prefer specialized units over all-rounders, especially knowing that most people will be bringing tanks. CIBs are more versatile, but less good against each specific unit type than other available units... I think that really hurts them. They lack the range of Missiles, they lack the punch of Fusions, they lack the number of rounds of Burst Cannons, they lack the base piercing and max range of Plasmas...

I'm not totally sure why everyone likes them so much. I used one once, and it just kinda... fizzled. He killed less in a horde than my Fire Warriors, and it didn't kill the heavy that was staring it down like the Fusion Commander would've in an identical situation.
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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 480

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#14 » Jan 08 2018 10:29

Zadocfish wrote:LOL yeah, that's what I was thinking about the VP condition. Our box is incredibly inefficient for the points... I'm all for Commander Spam, but I'm actually not in love with CIB Commanders. They seem to function okay-ish, but CIBs are a purchase in and of themselves, and well...

See, against something of T8, a Fusion Commander will outperform a CIB Commander... the same goes for any given model with multiple wounds and a good armor save, such as TEQ. A CIB Commander and a Fusion Commander will kill the same number of TEQ units per turn on average... Against MEQ, CIBs only give you 1 extra kill on average, and it comes at the cost of not being able to utterly shred heavies like Fusions can. Like seriously, against a Tyrannofex, a Fusion Commander deals a little over 5 wounds per turn (OUTSIDE of Melta range), whereas a CIB Commander Overcharging deals 3, with the added risk of Mortal Wounds. The only benefit that the CIBs bring against armored/multi-wound enemies is SLIGHTLY lower point cost, a total difference of around 19 points, and those points are channeled directly into killing power.

Even against a T6 multi-wound critter like a Trygon, an Overcharging CIB Commander only deals about 4 wounds, a non-overcharge attack yields 3, and a Fusion Commander nets you around 7, enough to push it to a lower tier of functionality. (sorry all my points of reference are Tyranids, that's just what I usually play against)

Meanwhile, if the argument is that CIBs are better against GEQs, well... a 4x Burst Commander kills the same number for an even smaller number of points, and a troop of Fire Warriors and a Fireblade will outperform the CIB or Burst Commander point-for-point against that enemy configuration as well.

I guess I'm saying I prefer specialized units over all-rounders, especially knowing that most people will be bringing tanks. CIBs are more versatile, but less good against each specific unit type than other available units... I think that really hurts them. They lack the range of Missiles, they lack the punch of Fusions, they lack the number of rounds of Burst Cannons, they lack the base piercing and max range of Plasmas...

I'm not totally sure why everyone likes them so much. I used one once, and it just kinda... fizzled. He killed less in a horde than my Fire Warriors, and it didn't kill the heavy that was staring it down like the Fusion Commander would've in an identical situation.


Things that perform very well all around are extremely popular in the competitive meta because it gives redundancy in very large quantities. If you have 4 CIB commanders, your opponent NEEDS to kill all of them before the real threat is gone. You won't be able to handle large quantities of models with fusions and, again, in competitive meta there WILL be spams of cheap troops (read conscripts and gaunts) that you simply will not be able to handle. 9 or 12 shots >> 4 really strong shots when clearing chaff. Our troops do not hold up well to fire and aren't that good for their points so taking firewarriors to clear another army's troops is ineffective. This is why CIB commanders are popular. They can literally do anything and they do it well. Try them again and see if you can make them work for you because they really are that good. Had a semi decent roll with one that wiped a vindi off the board doing exactly 12 damage. Didn't need it but had my CP reroll and the relic reroll to use to ensure a bad threat was removed.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2679

Re: My First Tournament List! (600pts)

Post#15 » Jan 08 2018 10:40

Yojimbob wrote:Things that perform very well all around are extremely popular in the competitive meta because it gives redundancy in very large quantities. If you have 4 CIB commanders, your opponent NEEDS to kill all of them before the real threat is gone. You won't be able to handle large quantities of models with fusions and, again, in competitive meta there WILL be spams of cheap troops (read conscripts and gaunts) that you simply will not be able to handle. 9 or 12 shots >> 4 really strong shots when clearing chaff. Our troops do not hold up well to fire and aren't that good for their points so taking firewarriors to clear another army's troops is ineffective. This is why CIB commanders are popular. They can literally do anything and they do it well. Try them again and see if you can make them work for you because they really are that good. Had a semi decent roll with one that wiped a vindi off the board doing exactly 12 damage. Didn't need it but had my CP reroll and the relic reroll to use to ensure a bad threat was removed.

Absolutely. CIBs offer more reliability and redundancy (via higher shot count), higher possible damage, a broader range of viable targets (via the two firing modes) and cost fewer points. In addition they largely aren't weak against invulnerable saves like Fusion Blasters are. If big, unshielded tanks are your targets, then Fusion Blasters are the right choice. Against almost everything else though, CIBs are an excellent option.

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