500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

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Shas
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#19 » Jan 15 2018 09:47

I think I’m going to be up against a dreadknight on Wednesday. I think he is putting his hq in a dread from what I’ve heard...

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Arka0415
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#20 » Jan 15 2018 10:06

Cgreeves wrote:I think I’m going to be up against a dreadknight on Wednesday. I think he is putting his hq in a dread from what I’ve heard...

As a heads-up, it's possible to use a Psyker Power and a Stratagem to give a Dreadknight a 2++ save. As we have no way to nullify invulnerable saves, cause mortal wounds (effectively), or deny psychic powers, that kind of unit is essentially unkillable. I guess the only thing would be to run away from it while forcing as many saves as you can, or just killing everything else in the list.

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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#21 » Jan 15 2018 01:04

Yuck! That’s horrendous!

I feel like I should be just peppering that with fire :)

Or getting the alpha strike at all costs

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Arka0415
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#22 » Jan 15 2018 07:39

Cgreeves wrote:Yuck! That’s horrendous!

I feel like I should be just peppering that with fire :)

Or getting the alpha strike at all costs

It's T6/W12/Sv2+. S5 pulse weapons aren't going to do anything to it, I think 300 Fire Warriors couldn't even take it down. If they use a unit like that, spread out and kill everything else- Strike Teams, Purifiers, etc, while focusing Fusion Blasters and CIBs on the big thing. Skirmish tactics are the only things that would really be viable I think.

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Atlas_MH
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#23 » Jan 16 2018 10:48

Something that dominating at 500 pts is something most of our army would struggle with at 1000 pts.

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Shas'O R'Kai
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#24 » Jan 16 2018 11:42

As a GK player myself, I can tell you that he'll have an unholy(holy?) amount of BS3+ S4 shots, so expect drones to die in droves. Getting first turn would be important here because he has to deploy some of his forces on the board, and killing those before he can drop down his other units will give you a big leg up. Arka is correct in suggesting to kill all his other units and leave his dreadknight to get kited out. After all it's hard/impossible to win objective games with only one model. Essentially, you don't have to kill him, just make sure he cant kill you.

Try to keep your commanders away form the dreadknight if you can. The only realistic way it'll manage to kill them if they have drone support is in combat. You can lead him on a merry chase by teasing him with your juicy fusion commander while advancing away and taking other objectives. I'd actually recommend taking a shield generator on the fusion commander. Having that 4++ inv save has kept my fusion commanders alive for an extra turn or 2 many many times. At higher points it's not as worth it, but at 500 it could be the difference between outlasting him and dying to a lucky charge.

As for the 2++ inv save, I wouldn't worry about that quite as much. If he's taking a dreadknight grandmaster then that's about 55% of his points. He's not going to have many command points at all at that points level considering how expensive GK units are. To get the 2++ he needs to cast a psychic power and spend 2 out of 4(ish) command points and it only lasts for a turn. If you can kite him out and force him to spend those command points, then on turn 3 you can open up with the Commanders and have a good chance of killing it in one volley. Between the two commanders, you should be causing 8.666 wounds to it (before CP re-rolls).

Hope you do well! Looking forward to hearing all about it :)

R'Kai
Playing with a short reach since 2007 :crafty:

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Shas
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#25 » Jan 16 2018 07:23

Thanks for all the help guys. I’ll be a little disappointed if he does bring something as cheesy when we have been specifically requested not to bring cheesy lists.

It does look like at the moment that club may be snowed off (the joys of living in Scotland ;) ) but I’ll definitely post a battle report after the game.

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Arka0415
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#26 » Jan 16 2018 07:31

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:I can tell you that he'll have an unholy(holy?) amount of BS3+ S4 shots, so expect drones to die in droves.

What are good GK builds looking like these days? Razorback and MSU spam?

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:Try to keep your commanders away form the dreadknight if you can. The only realistic way it'll manage to kill them if they have drone support is in combat. You can lead him on a merry chase by teasing him with your juicy fusion commander while advancing away and taking other objectives.

The Dreadknight can be equipped with wargear that gives it a long move characteristic, right? If the GK player uses a jump Dreadknight I think it'd be able to catch a Fusion Commander after only one turn of shooting, since the Fusion Commander would only be 18" away.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:I'd actually recommend taking a shield generator on the fusion commander. Having that 4++ inv save has kept my fusion commanders alive for an extra turn or 2 many many times. At higher points it's not as worth it, but at 500 it could be the difference between outlasting him and dying to a lucky charge.

Didn't even think about that- great suggestion in low-points games. Makes sense too, since the Fusion Commander will probably be the main focus-fire target.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:As for the 2++ inv save, I wouldn't worry about that quite as much. If he's taking a dreadknight grandmaster then that's about 55% of his points. He's not going to have many command points at all at that points level considering how expensive GK units are.

I'm assuming the GK player will just use it when it counts, but I guess it would be possible to catch the Dreadknight without it on turn 1. If the GK player only uses it twice, do you think it'd be possible to really ignore the Dreadknight for two turns? They have good shooting if I recall correctly.

I played GK Paladins back in 6th Edition as part of my old Inquisition army, but I never got on board with Dreadknights, so I don't know too much about them.

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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#27 » Jan 17 2018 05:25

Arka0415 wrote:What are good GK builds looking like these days? Razorback and MSU spam?


It's looking like Grandmaster dreadknight spam, or lots of interceptor/strike/purgation squads. Paladins are also pretty awesome. There's actually a decent amount of 'viable' builds. A really strong list I've faced was a combo of Draigo, a Brother Captain (increases smite range), an Ancient with the D6 smite banner relic, and lots and lots of PA knights. But at 500 points, if he's taking a GM Dreadknight, he'll have points for maybe 2 5 man PA squads. The cheapest option GK have is 105 points for a 5 man strike team. The GM Dreadknight is around 260-280 so he won't be fitting much in at all. Infact, probably only a patrol detachment. I wouldn't be too worried about this opponent, since Grey Knights really struggle in low points games.

Arka0415 wrote:The Dreadknight can be equipped with wargear that gives it a long move characteristic, right? If the GK player uses a jump Dreadknight I think it'd be able to catch a Fusion Commander after only one turn of shooting, since the Fusion Commander would only be 18" away.


This was the case in 7th! In 8th however, fortunately(unfortunately for me!) it has lost that ability. The gear exists, but merely lets it Deep strike. So the Fusion commander should be safe.

Arka0415 wrote:Didn't even think about that- great suggestion in low-points games. Makes sense too, since the Fusion Commander will probably be the main focus-fire target.


Thanks! I like it because it helps save some points too. Since this is a TAC list I'd highly recommend it because as you said, it's going to be heavily targeted. It might not be the best against GK since itll only actually come into play in combat, but still 100% worth taking in a TAC list.

Arka0415 wrote:I'm assuming the GK player will just use it when it counts, but I guess it would be possible to catch the Dreadknight without it on turn 1. If the GK player only uses it twice, do you think it'd be possible to really ignore the Dreadknight for two turns? They have good shooting if I recall correctly.

I played GK Paladins back in 6th Edition as part of my old Inquisition army, but I never got on board with Dreadknights, so I don't know too much about them.


You're quite right in saying that it's more than likely to catch him without it on turn 1. After looking at the points, I don't think its possible for him to get more than 3 CP in 500pt games if he insists on using the GM DK. So he probably only gets this once in the game! The dreadknight does have pretty good shooting, but it's not amazing. The guns will do multi damage (either 2 or D3) but are only -1 AP or AP 0. It's best against heavy infantry really so will be slightly wasted on drones. Once the PA squads are removed, you'll have little to fear.

The Paladins are of course awesome, but expensive at about 55 points a model. So if he takes them he's spending about 270 on the DK and minimum 165 on paladins. I highly doubt Paladins will see the field at 500 points.

After looking at potential GK builds for 500 points, the only viable way to go is MSU PA squads. Everything else is just too expensive. You could go with terminators for the 2+ save but you lose 50% firepower for that.

Hope this helps!

R'Kai
Playing with a short reach since 2007 :crafty:

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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#28 » Jan 17 2018 05:44

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:I wouldn't be too worried about this opponent, since Grey Knights really struggle in low points games.

Huh. Personally I've never seen GK in battle at anything below 1500 points. I figured they'd be stronger in low points games, since you can easily field things against which there's almost no counter, like Land Raiders or Stormravens. Without a tailored list most players would be very hard-pressed to do anything against a Stormraven in a tiny game, I think.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:This was the case in 7th! In 8th however, fortunately(unfortunately for me!) it has lost that ability. The gear exists, but merely lets it Deep strike. So the Fusion commander should be safe.

Good to hear. I didn't bother to continue with my Inqusition army after it's outright removal in 8th Edition, so I didn't read the other GK rules too closely once I'd figured that out. I think Grey Knights and Space Wolves are the two armies I really don't know too well.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:You're quite right in saying that it's more than likely to catch him without it on turn 1. After looking at the points, I don't think its possible for him to get more than 3 CP in 500pt games if he insists on using the GM DK. So he probably only gets this once in the game! The dreadknight does have pretty good shooting, but it's not amazing. The guns will do multi damage (either 2 or D3) but are only -1 AP or AP 0. It's best against heavy infantry really so will be slightly wasted on drones. Once the PA squads are removed, you'll have little to fear.

Gotcha. Honestly that makes sense. I'm more imagining a "do-or-die" situation where the Dreadknight needs to die, but has a 2++ save. One Bolter fire gets rid of the drones those multi-damage weapons should be able to bring down a Commander.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:After looking at potential GK builds for 500 points, the only viable way to go is MSU PA squads. Everything else is just too expensive. You could go with terminators for the 2+ save but you lose 50% firepower for that.

I can see that being viable. MSU single-wound infantry is vulnerable to S5 firepower though, so I can see why Terminators might be a favored choice. After all it doesn't take too many Storm Bolters to clear out Gun Drones.

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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#29 » Jan 17 2018 06:47

Arka0415 wrote:Huh. Personally I've never seen GK in battle at anything below 1500 points. I figured they'd be stronger in low points games, since you can easily field things against which there's almost no counter, like Land Raiders or Stormravens. Without a tailored list most players would be very hard-pressed to do anything against a Stormraven in a tiny game, I think.


I see your point, and I think against some armies this is true, but a good list always has some answer to armour, and having only a couple units means that objective games become almost impossible. They're a very all or nothing army, they'll either get the alpha strike they need, or they won't and then lose to objectives.

Arka0415 wrote:Good to hear. I didn't bother to continue with my Inqusition army after it's outright removal in 8th Edition, so I didn't read the other GK rules too closely once I'd figured that out. I think Grey Knights and Space Wolves are the two armies I really don't know too well.


Yeah, I wasn't sure what to make of that. I do really like that Grey Knights are their own army now. They're such cool models. All you need to know about Space Wolves is that they're extra fighty Vanilla Marines, have quad melta Storm Ravens and Wulfen are BS and will turn anything they touch into a fine paste :D .

Arka0415 wrote:Gotcha. Honestly that makes sense. I'm more imagining a "do-or-die" situation where the Dreadknight needs to die, but has a 2++ save. One Bolter fire gets rid of the drones those multi-damage weapons should be able to bring down a Commander.


It is a bit feast or famine yeah. The 2++ save is good but requires a lot to pull off. In my opinion it's an easy match up for us because we have the most efficient anti large in the game with the Fusion commander. Spread out deployment of drones, Manta the Commanders so that if they get Turn 1 and drop the DK, they'll kill a couple drone squads at most. Then counter drop and fire at the DK if it doesn't have the 2++, otherwise kill the 10 PA Knights. It should be easy to remove 10 PA marines with the drones and both commanders which leaves just the dreadknight for the rest of the game. Then you just split up and take objectives while shooting away. Statistically it only survives for 3 turns assuming that during one of them it takes no damage at all due to the 2++. If the 2++ doesn't go off on the first turn and you fire at it, there's a decent chance it'll die outright. If Tau go first, then drop the CIB commander next to a swarm of drones to help wipe one squad of PA Knights and bait out the dreadknight. Then on turn two, kite back and take objectives while shooting.

Arka0415 wrote:I can see that being viable. MSU single-wound infantry is vulnerable to S5 firepower though, so I can see why Terminators might be a favored choice. After all it doesn't take too many Storm Bolters to clear out Gun Drones.


MSU PA units are a bit more vulnerable, but the tiny model count of a terminator list will really start to show. I've tried that kind of approach and it can work beautifully if your opponent didn't think to take any AP guns with them. However, something like the CIB commander/Hellblaster squad will rip through the terminator squad in 1 or 2 turns.

What do you think of a flamer crisis team rather than the CIB commander? I was just thinking that the organiser said 'no cheese' and taking all drones + commanders seems pretty cheesy! haha

Could have:

Triple Fusion + Shield Commander w/ 2 shield drones - 163
Double Flamer + ATS Team w/ 6 Gun drones - 252
Gun drones x 5 - 40
Gun drones x 5 - 40
495

Obviously it's not as great, but it could be a lot of fun to constantly advance and burn things!

R'Kai
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#30 » Jan 17 2018 07:07

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:It is a bit feast or famine yeah. The 2++ save is good but requires a lot to pull off. In my opinion it's an easy match up for us because we have the most efficient anti large in the game with the Fusion commander. Spread out deployment of drones, Manta the Commanders so that if they get Turn 1 and drop the DK, they'll kill a couple drone squads at most. Then counter drop and fire at the DK if it doesn't have the 2++, otherwise kill the 10 PA Knights. It should be easy to remove 10 PA marines with the drones and both commanders which leaves just the dreadknight for the rest of the game. Then you just split up and take objectives while shooting away. Statistically it only survives for 3 turns assuming that during one of them it takes no damage at all due to the 2++. If the 2++ doesn't go off on the first turn and you fire at it, there's a decent chance it'll die outright. If Tau go first, then drop the CIB commander next to a swarm of drones to help wipe one squad of PA Knights and bait out the dreadknight. Then on turn two, kite back and take objectives while shooting.

Sounds like a great game plan to me. Honestly if the GK army doesn't have heavy shooting there might not really be a win condition, seeing as a single skirmishing CIB Commander could ruin a big chunk of it. Fun stuff.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:What do you think of a flamer crisis team rather than the CIB commander? I was just thinking that the organiser said 'no cheese' and taking all drones + commanders seems pretty cheesy! haha

Could have:

Triple Fusion + Shield Commander w/ 2 shield drones - 163
Double Flamer + ATS Team w/ 6 Gun drones - 252
Gun drones x 5 - 40
Gun drones x 5 - 40
495

Obviously it's not as great, but it could be a lot of fun to constantly advance and burn things!

I guess I'm looking at this from the point of view of an escalation tournament- don't want to stock the army with things that will stop being viable past 500 points. For a non-cheese list that would definitely be a fun option though. I assume the league will run on to 1500 or 2000 points?

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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#31 » Jan 17 2018 08:53

Arka0415 wrote:Sounds like a great game plan to me. Honestly if the GK army doesn't have heavy shooting there might not really be a win condition, seeing as a single skirmishing CIB Commander could ruin a big chunk of it. Fun stuff.


Thanks! Should amount to a tense game. If the DK makes any charges that could be a major problem! I look forward to seeing OP does!

Arka0415 wrote:I guess I'm looking at this from the point of view of an escalation tournament- don't want to stock the army with things that will stop being viable past 500 points. For a non-cheese list that would definitely be a fun option though. I assume the league will run on to 1500 or 2000 points?


Ahhh I see, so it's building on the preceding army rather than new lists every game? OP should run it by the organiser. If he say's it's too optimised(read cheesy haha) then I'd argue that a Grand Master in Dreadknight suit is equally cheesy. I think OP said that it would be adding 500 points to the total with each game?
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Cgreeves
Shas
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#32 » Jan 17 2018 05:28

Hey guys, thanks so much for the replies so far. I'm really enjoying getting some insight into GK as I am just new back to the game.

We don't need to keep the same list from game to game but I don't want to be that guy who tailors lists for each game, especially since I am complaining about that very thing being done to me ;)

However the idea of flamer suits is really appealing and funny. Club was snowed off tonight and this game will now need to be postponed until febuary!!!! So keeping a couple of lists up my sleeve in case they see what I am bringing and tailor something nasty is a good shout.

I will definitely be posting a battle report on the game :)

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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#33 » Jan 17 2018 06:20

Cgreeves wrote:We don't need to keep the same list from game to game but I don't want to be that guy who tailors lists for each game, especially since I am complaining about that very thing being done to me.

Oh, okay! So the "escalation" part is just that the points values for games increase over time?

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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#34 » Jan 18 2018 04:26

Arka0415 wrote:Oh, okay! So the "escalation" part is just that the points values for games increase over time?


Yeah, The idea from the organiser was to encourage new players to the club ( we have quite a few including myself) to get in and playing games and get armies painted but not locking new players into lists that they chose at the very beginning.

The first list I posted is the one I played in the first game. we have 3 games per point value against randomly drawn people.

I just feel that as I am a returning player I didn't want to be chopping and changing my list all of the time because I didn't want to steam roll the new players who are learning the game. The issue I have is that my next 2 are experienced players who are so used to Tau being a top tier army with lots of trick up its sleeves so they are tailoring lol. So I figured I would turn to you guys to make sure I don't get steam rolled but also to make sure that I'm not being "That Guy"

I should have been a little clearer at the start.

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Shas'O R'Kai
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#35 » Jan 18 2018 07:14

Cgreeves wrote:Thanks for all the help guys. I’ll be a little disappointed if he does bring something as cheesy when we have been specifically requested not to bring cheesy lists.

It does look like at the moment that club may be snowed off (the joys of living in Scotland ;) ) but I’ll definitely post a battle report after the game.


You're more than welcome! Sorry, I didn't see this post when I was posting my multitude of replies! Sometimes you just have to accept that there are players that will always try to bring the cheddar. Also players that have a hate boner for Tau due to them being good in 6th + 7th!

That's a shame that it's been delayed! I was looking forward to hearing about the results! What a small world, I'm also from the land most bonnie!! I'm based in Stirling, where abouts are you from? (if you don't mind me asking!)

Cgreeves wrote:I just feel that as I am a returning player I didn't want to be chopping and changing my list all of the time because I didn't want to steam roll the new players who are learning the game. The issue I have is that my next 2 are experienced players who are so used to Tau being a top tier army with lots of trick up its sleeves so they are tailoring lol. So I figured I would turn to you guys to make sure I don't get steam rolled but also to make sure that I'm not being "That Guy"


It's really hard to find that balance when there are a mix of totally new players and people that tailor for you exclusively. Personally, I take a competitive list designed to destroy the people that try to tailor for me( I really hate list tailoring, it encourages boring and samey games), and then when I play a newer person, I just tone down my aggression and tactics a little. Since you're new back to it you could easily bring the commander + Drones build and I don't think you'd be 'that guy'. The flamer suits would certainly be a laugh and a lot of fun though, so it depends if you care about winning games or not! My only issue with the flamer team is that you cant really manta strike with them since they'll be out of range. I'd go with the commanders + drones since you can still have a good game with new players, but it lets you stand a chance against those that have tailored for you.

Hope that helps!

R'Kai
Playing with a short reach since 2007 :crafty:

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Shas
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Re: 500 point escalation army list against grey Knights and marines

Post#36 » Jan 18 2018 09:17

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:What a small world, I'm also from the land most bonnie!! I'm based in Stirling, where abouts are you from? (if you don't mind me asking!)


Not at all, Im from Glasgow, but playing mainly in an east kilbride and a hamilton group.

I always struggle to find the line when toning down aggression. I think sometimes I need to remember that I am just re-learning the army and game myself. The last time I really played was in 4th edition!

I'm also really gutted about the delay in the game. The grey knights player can't do until mid february now so I'm kind of Disappointed at all the work that went in crafting the list and tactica. I suppose at least i can try and get some practice games against GK in before hand.

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