750 point list - tactics and modifications

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Wes
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750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#1 » Jan 22 2018 01:40

There is an escalation league in my local meta, and this week we're playing at 750 points:

Mission: Big Guns Never Tire
Deployment: Dawn of War (4'x4' table)

I do not know who my opponents (multiple games) will be yet.

I'm thinking of the following list:

HQ - Quad-Fusion Commander w/ 2x shield drones (176 points)

Elites - 3x Crisis Battlesuits w/ 6x flamers, 3× fusion blasters, 3x gun drones (267)

Heavy Support - Broadside w/ 2x high yield missile pods, 2x plasma rifle, ATS, (192)

Fast Attack - 4x tactical drones (32)

Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders (carbines and ML) (40)

Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders (carbines ans ML) (40)

747 points

Concerns:
* Only 3 gun drones with the Crisis Battlesuits
* Glass cannon warlord
* Taking a heavy support when it is another potential VP for my opponent.

The tactical drone squad would guard the broadside, who'd camp on an objective. Pathfinders are there to provide markerlight support and possibly secure objectives, but I feel like my main goal is to dominate the board with a decisive alpha strike. The commander and crisis suits would deepstrike.

I can modify the loadouts on the suits, but cannot (will not in this case) take a second commander. I do not own more crisis suits. I could substitute in stealth battlesuits (maybe they could sit on an objective and be hard to move off it) strike teams, breacher teams (no transport) or kroot carnivores. My order of Vespid is late (I'd hoped to use them this week instead of Crisis :( ). I'm still a fairly new player so that exhausts my options. My meta is okay with fudging the loadouts a little but not on proxying whole models for the league (I'm aware it may be legal to use a crisis suit as a commander, but not going to here).

So I know it's not the most optimal list. Any tips on substitutions or how to use it? I know plasma rifles have seen limited use in our index, but was considering substituting the fusion blasters on the Crisis Battlesuits in this situation (6x flamers and 3× plasma rifles) I might be able to squeeze more drones or pathfinders in, and the suits would be dropping within rapid fire range.

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Draco023
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#2 » Jan 22 2018 02:46

I'm far from an expert, and I expect Arka will be by in a minute to give much better advice ( he's helped out my lists on multiple occasions) but I will point out that if you're counting on a decisive alpha strike with the Crisis suits, you're only going to be able to use their fusions. Not that the flamer+ fusion combo is bad, but without a homing beacon they're not really an alpha strike, they're at best good for 1 fusion hit, on average. This is more of a tactical observation than a list one though.

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Wes
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#3 » Jan 22 2018 02:53

Draco023 wrote:I will point out that if you're counting on a decisive alpha strike with the Crisis suits, you're only going to be able to use their fusions.


Good point. "Alpha strike" may not have been the best term, because the crisis battlesuits would need to survive an enemy turn to make full use of flamers. I suspect they can, maybe with a few more drones. The Broadside could be dropped in favor of stealth suits, more infantry, and a cadre fireblade. Stealth suits might make great campers. Or go with a 2xCIB loadout on the crisis battlesuits (don't have enough points to squeeze in three without further changes).

I know the broadside isn't among our most efficient units at the moment, though I am looking forward to using it for the first time. Maybe I'm being overeager to get him into battle.

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Draco023
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#4 » Jan 22 2018 03:03

Wes wrote:
Good point. "Alpha strike" may not have been the best term, because the crisis battlesuits would need to survive an enemy turn to make full use of flamers. I suspect they can, maybe with a few more drones.


If the QFC is making a big enough nuisance of himself, then yes they should be able to. :D

Are you committed to the broadside? It's a sizable chunk of your points and I've only found it a mediocre unit this edition. You could go all in on the flammers with a stealth team + homing beacon and add some special weapons to your pathfinders for his cost, depending on how you like to run your lists. I'm much more a fan of the close quarters approach myself, and that bias is probably showing lol!



Doh, ninja edited, lol! Looks like you had the same idea already

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Yojimbob
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#5 » Jan 22 2018 03:16

Wes wrote:
Draco023 wrote:I will point out that if you're counting on a decisive alpha strike with the Crisis suits, you're only going to be able to use their fusions.


Good point. "Alpha strike" may not have been the best term, because the crisis battlesuits would need to survive an enemy turn to make full use of flamers. I suspect they can, maybe with a few more drones. The Broadside could be dropped in favor of stealth suits, more infantry, and a cadre fireblade. Stealth suits might make great campers. Or go with a 2xCIB loadout on the crisis battlesuits (don't have enough points to squeeze in three without further changes).

I know the broadside isn't among our most efficient units at the moment, though I am looking forward to using it for the first time. Maybe I'm being overeager to get him into battle.


Bench the broadside. It's more expensive than a CIB commander and does less damage per round even with an ats in ideal conditions. Take CIB crisis and enough lights for 5 hits or smitch it up to add stealth.

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Wes
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#6 » Jan 22 2018 03:19

Draco023 wrote:Are you committed to the broadside? It's a sizable chunk of your points and I've only found it a mediocre unit this edition.


I'm fairly new to the game, have played maybe a half dozen games or so. From a flavor/fun perspective, I am kind of leaning towards him. My games so far have had a lot of fire warriors and stealth battlesuits (the commander and three crisis being my only non-infantry at the time), and I'd like to experiment with something new. But if he's not workable at 750 points, I could definitely cut him. My local group for the most part doesn't run super competitive lists.

Draco023 wrote:Doh, ninja edited, lol! Looks like you had the same idea already


I'm a really bad ninja editor... it's one of my negatives.

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Draco023
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#7 » Jan 22 2018 03:53

Wes wrote:
Draco023 wrote:Are you committed to the broadside? It's a sizable chunk of your points and I've only found it a mediocre unit this edition.


I'm fairly new to the game, have played maybe a half dozen games or so. From a flavor/fun perspective, I am kind of leaning towards him. My games so far have had a lot of fire warriors and stealth battlesuits (the commander and three crisis being my only non-infantry at the time), and I'd like to experiment with something new. But if he's not workable at 750 points, I could definitely cut him. My local group for the most part doesn't run super competitive lists.

You want to give him a try, by all means go for it! My advice would be to look at what he can do and support that to make him viable. Going for the CIB build on your suits could help with that, if you drop them by the drone squad and enjoy that 18" overlap of fire in the midfield. It does leave your QFC almost unsupported, but that seems to be the norm right now. I don't use one myself, prefer the Coldstar versatility and survivability. Just seems fluffier to me.

Draco023 wrote:Doh, ninja edited, lol! Looks like you had the same idea already


I'm a really bad ninja editor... it's one of my negatives.


Not a worry at all, I am guilty of it myself as well.

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Arka0415
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#8 » Jan 22 2018 08:11

Draco023 wrote:I'm far from an expert, and I expect Arka will be by in a minute

Sorry I'm late! :D

Wes wrote:There is an escalation league in my local meta, and this week we're playing at 750 points:

Mission: Big Guns Never Tire
Deployment: Dawn of War (4'x4' table)

I do not know who my opponents (multiple games) will be yet.

I'm thinking of the following list:

HQ - Quad-Fusion Commander w/ 2x shield drones (176 points)

Elites - 3x Crisis Battlesuits w/ 6x flamers, 3× fusion blasters, 3x gun drones (267)

Heavy Support - Broadside w/ 2x high yield missile pods, 2x plasma rifle, ATS, (192)

Fast Attack - 4x tactical drones (32)

Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders (carbines and ML) (40)

Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders (carbines ans ML) (40)

747 points

Looks like a great start to a list, however, I think you've already guessed the isssues:

Wes wrote:Concerns:
* Only 3 gun drones with the Crisis Battlesuits
* Glass cannon warlord
* Taking a heavy support when it is another potential VP for my opponent.

Your concerns are exactly correct. The XV8s need more Gun Drones, the Commander is fragile (this can be fixed just with good placement, keep him behind the XV8s), and the Broadside is not only an under-powered unit, but it's also a VP liability in this particular game.

Wes wrote:...I feel like my main goal is to dominate the board with a decisive alpha strike. The commander and crisis suits would deepstrike.

Here's where my concern comes in. The decisive alpha strike here looks solid, but you only have 3 Gun Drones coming in, the Flamers won't be able to fire, and otherwise all of your firepower is anti-tank. That las tone is the big issue with this list, basically every weapon besides two Flamers and two Plasma Rifles is anti-tank! :neutral:

Wes wrote:I can modify the loadouts on the suits, but cannot take a second commander. I do not own more crisis suits. I could substitute in stealth battlesuits (maybe they could sit on an objective and be hard to move off it) strike teams, breacher teams (no transport) or kroot carnivores. My order of Vespid is late (I'd hoped to use them this week instead of Crisis :( ). I'm still a fairly new player so that exhausts my options. My meta is okay with fudging the loadouts a little but not on proxying whole models for the league (I'm aware it may be legal to use a crisis suit as a commander, but not going to here).

So you have access to alternate XV8 loadouts, Stealthsuits, Fire Warriors, Breachers, and Kroot? That sounds like plenty of options- and to make room, the easiest thing would be to drop the Broadside.

-

For XV8s, we can get anti-infantry firepower from their Gun Drones and a Drone Controller. I'll do what I always do and suggest CIBs, which are especially viable in small games where versatile units are key. We'll keep the Pathfinders, drop the Broadside, and fill the gap with as many models as we viably can. I'm not sure how many models you have of each choice, but what do you think about this list?

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, Drone Controller; 2x Gun Drones (111)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders w/ 3x Ion Rifles, 2x Markerlights (52)
Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders w/ 5x Markerlights (40)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total: 750 - Command Points: 4 (1 Outrider Detachment)

-

I'm not sold on the Ion Rifles on the Pathfinders, but two Pathfinder squads all with Markerlights sounds like a bit much for 750 points, but it might work. Anyway, what do you think?

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Wes
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#9 » Jan 22 2018 09:21

Thank you everyone for the comments so far. The broadside certainly isn't enough bang for the buck.

Arka0415 wrote:HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, Drone Controller; 2x Gun Drones (111)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders w/ 3x Ion Rifles, 2x Markerlights (52)
Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders w/ 5x Markerlights (40)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total: 750 - Command Points: 4 (1 Outrider Detachment)

-

I'm not sold on the Ion Rifles on the Pathfinders, but two Pathfinder squads all with Markerlights sounds like a bit much for 750 points, but it might work. Anyway, what do you think?


I really like the look of the list. I take it the primary role of the stealthsuits and their two drones is to be objective campers? Maybe on an enemy objective early on if it looks like I can push them off with the assistance of the XV8 and Commander. How do you recommend I use the tactical gun drone squad? Circumstances will vary of course, but should I plan on rushing them up to accompany the battlesuits? Pathfinders will likely be holding objectives on my side. Hopefully I can force my opponent to prioritize other targets (such as all the gun drones, then the suits).

Sorry for rambling, just thinking it through.

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Arka0415
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#10 » Jan 22 2018 11:05

Glad you like it!

Wes wrote:I take it the primary role of the stealthsuits and their two drones is to be objective campers? Maybe on an enemy objective early on if it looks like I can push them off with the assistance of the XV8 and Commander.

The Stealthsuits represent your main land-based (i.e. not deep strike) anti-infantry firepower. They work best when they can disrupt enemy light infantry which they can bully very easily. Use then to clear out light infantry from objectives, take objectives, and to kill weak high-value units like IG Heavy Weapons teams or (enemy) Pathfinders. Stealthsuits are great for holding objectives too, since their durability is better than their firepower.

Wes wrote:How do you recommend I use the tactical gun drone squad? Circumstances will vary of course, but should I plan on rushing them up to accompany the battlesuits?

Independent Gun Drone units are the ultimate flex unit- they're tough, fast, offering plenty of firepower. In this list I can see three roles for them, so just pick the most appropriate one every turn!

1. Linking up with Drone Controllers: Maximize your firepower by having the Gun Drones link up with either the XV8s or the Stealthsuits, taking advantage of the Drone Controller for +50% accuracy, which is fantastic when you're getting four shots per model. In this case the Gun Drones should head toward whichever squad can buff them and still let them fire at infantry, their preferred target.

2. Protecting the Commander: In the case that your Commander and the XV8s need to drop in different locations, you can move the Gun Drones up, and have the Commander drop just within Savior Protocols range. Having 6 Gun Drones and 2 Shield Drones available will make that Commander very hard to take down in a small game.

3. Screening: Sometimes you might want to offer your Pathfinders a little more protection. The point here isn't to use Savior Protocols, but rather to have the drones intercede if enemy assault units are getting too close to your valuable Markerlights. Remember that Gun Drones offer impressive overwatch firepower, and using Gun Drones defensively can be a great way to counter assault armies that include deep strike units especially.

Wes wrote:Pathfinders will likely be holding objectives on my side. Hopefully I can force my opponent to prioritize other targets (such as all the gun drones, then the suits).

That's the idea! And remember that Pathfinders, with their 5+ armor saves, really like to be in cover. Objectives are very important, and Pathfinders are great for sitting on them, but definitely think hard about putting Pathfinders on objectives that are out in the open, especially if your opponent has Bolters to spare.

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Wes
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#11 » Jan 23 2018 09:47

Okay! I used Arka's list tonight and was matched up against a Grey Knight opponent. It only managed to lose due to some terrible decisions I made in the game.

At the end of turn five, I had slay the warlord and first blood. My opponent had slay the warlord, linebreaker, and one objective (nabbed only during his last turn by killing enough pathfinders with his terminators to outnumber them). Another objective was contested.

Sigh... he had five purifiers in a rhino, and five paladins with an apothecary in deepstrike along with his warlord (brother-captain?). He had first move and just moved the rhino forward. Me, being stupid, deep striked everything to pop the rhino and kill some purifiers. Then he came in with his pallies and characters and, between shooting and CC, killed the XV8s and their drones. The Commander then slew his warlord with some fancy maneuvering, tanked a whole round of combat against the pallies and a character, but was then slain when my opponent used a strategem to redo his entire round of combat.

The stealthsuits and the tactical drone squad killed the remaining purifiers and proved a distraction for a few turns against the pallies, but were slain by incinerators. The high rate of dakka, markerlights, drone controller, and ion rifles did manage to kill three pallies, though one was resurrected (and a wound was healed, otherwise I'd have killed another).

Some drone ended up contesting an objwctive with his character. The pathfinders held to the objective strongly, but one squad was reduced to one against his three pallies and I ended up overheating the ion rifles (if I hadn't I could have contested that objective).

I see the mistakes I made, foremost (but not only) being that I should have waited for him to deepstrike first. The amount of dakka and AP modifier potential I had in the XV8s and Commander could have helped and given me more punch on my turn 2 and 3, plus have prevented him from moving forward.

Ugh.

Good list, though, and I take the blame for the loss. I should have an opportunity to play it better tomorrow night.

Even with my bad decisions, it came down to turn 5, though if it had gone to 6 I'd have lost most definitely.

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Arka0415
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#12 » Jan 23 2018 10:05

Wes wrote:Okay! I used Arka's list tonight and was matched up against a Grey Knight opponent. It only managed to lose due to some terrible decisions I made in the game.

At the end of turn five, I had slay the warlord and first blood. My opponent had slay the warlord, linebreaker, and one objective (nabbed only during his last turn by killing enough pathfinders with his terminators to outnumber them). Another objective was contested.

Ah, sounds like a close game!! Looks like your list was well-suited to the battle, but the objectives didn't work out. Good luck next time! Any regrets about taking certain units?

Wes wrote:He had five purifiers in a rhino, and five paladins in deepstrike with two characters.

That doesn't sound like a legal list. You have to deploy at least half of your army on the tabletop, it looks he had 2 units on the ground and 3 in reserves.

Wes wrote:Me, being stupid, deep striked everything to pop the rhino and kill some purifiers. Then he came in with his pallies and characters and, between shooting and CC, killed the XV8s and their drones. The Commander then slew his warlord with some fancy maneuvering, tanked a whole round of combat against the pallies and a character, but was then slain when my opponent used a strategem to redo his entire round of combat.

One thing that we are weak against is counter-deep strike. We land, then they land, and take us out. I assume the Paladins landed behind your XV8s and made their 9" charge?

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Wes
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#13 » Jan 23 2018 10:17

Arka0415 wrote:Ah, sounds like a close game!! Looks like your list was well-suited to the battle, but the objectives didn't work out. Good luck next time! Any regrets about taking certain units?


No regrets on my units, just a few tactical choices I made.

Arka0415 wrote:That doesn't sound like a legal list. You have to deploy at least half of your army on the tabletop, it looks he had 2 units on the ground and 3 in reserves.


I think you're right. Two units on the board, three off.

Arka0415 wrote:One thing that we are weak against is counter-deep strike. We land, then they land, and take us out. I assume the Paladins landed behind your XV8s and made their 9" charge?


In front of the XV8s (I had deployed in his deployment zone). The drones were too wiped out to screen. He failed the charge at first, but his Warlord allowed him to reroll the charge and he made it. Thinking about it, if I'd deployed my drones further out... but I wanted them near enough to the Commander just in case he dropped in the other side.

He had first turn, so I could have waited him out on the deepstrike.

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Wes
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#14 » Jan 24 2018 09:23

I used Arka's list again, this time against Death Guard, and won. I let him deep strike first. It took four turns, but I managed to remove his MEQ, deepstriking TEQ, and some TEQ character from the board without losing an XV8 or Commander. Also took out his psyker with their combined fire on turn five (a bit of a drag). He took out my XV25s and 11 drones, and I lost two pathfinders to overheating on turn five. I killed his cultists. Didn't have a chance to take out his long line of poxwalkers. I'd have nearly tabled him on turn 6, but the game ended. We each held two objectives and I had first blood. I swear I slayed his declared warlord but at the end he told me it was his last remaining character, so maybe I misunderstood. But the list worked great.

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Arka0415
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Re: 750 point list - tactics and modifications

Post#15 » Jan 24 2018 10:30

Wes wrote:I used Arka's list again, this time against Death Guard, and won. I let him deep strike first. It took four turns, but I managed to remove his MEQ, deepstriking TEQ, and some TEQ character from the board without losing an XV8 or Commander. Also took out his psyker with their combined fire on turn five (a bit of a drag).

That's how it's done!! Very nice. Getting a good alpha strike, then keeping your units alive and shooting really is the key.

Wes wrote:I swear I slayed his declared warlord but at the end he told me it was his last remaining character, so maybe I misunderstood.

Often it helps to write these things down beforehand. For example I always bring a printed-out army roster with Warlord, Warlord Trait, and Relic included, since I essentially use the same list every time.

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