Fluff Problems: A growing issue

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Calmsword
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Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#1 » Nov 27 2016 01:20

Hey everyone,

I've been reigniting some of my relationships within the BL community and Boom! Comics who hold a Warhammer license... And it came up recently how the new direction of 40k is just... odd.

It begins with the Mont'ka/Kauyon books. The decision to kill Aun'va was strange but entirely acceptable as he wasn't a particularly strong narrative choice for the Tau. But then to turn around and set fire to the Damocles Gulf, limit the Tau even further to the region (a consistent issue that FF Games had fixed in many ways), was a mess. In fact, one might go so far as to say that GW seems to be suffering from 'nothing happened' syndrome.

After all, Farsight returns to his Enclaves, Shadowsun stays on Mu'gulath Bay and things go as they are in the Empire, now cut off from the rest of the Galaxy (since FTL is a problem we're dealing with still...)

Spoiler!
But now, with the recent leaks coming out of the Wrath of Magnus books, we have another, bleeding, issue:

Magnus is sent reeling back into the Warp, Midgardia, a planet that largely doesn't matter, is destroyed by Logan who then turns around and lets the Inquisition kill the human population of Fenris while Fire Wolf spirits rise out of a volcano to... bite Magnus. Now.. This flies in the face some really big issues that are the bedrock of 40k. To begin with, Logan, and the Space Wolves, were always considered the most 'human' of the Astartes, on many occasions sacrificing themselves to save Guardsmen or running afoul of the Grey Knights who wanted to decimate the population of Armaggedon... but now he's fine with losing Fenris' people? The next issue are these Fire Wolves... Their isn't much detail about them, but, why is 40k going all Fantasy? Everything the Imperial factions manifested was still the power of the Emperor, but now we're shifting into just straight spiritualism which should be: chaos.

In the end, nothing happens. The Space Wolves relocate to Cadia... ???


As more and more of these books come out, there seems to be a strange shift where it seems a bunch of things are revved up but then keep a status quo, but also damnably counter-intuitive to the bedrock of 40k.

Recently, a friend talked to me about how awful the new Harry Potter book was (the one about Harry's kid) and it wasn't anything broad but just the specificity of how wrong everything was. Professor Mcgonagle trusting in the centaurs for example after she is established in three books as not believing in prophecy at all. It's just a part of who she is and yet in the new book she insists everyone has to trust them.

That's me branching into another batch of nerdisms- but I'm hoping it strikes a cord in you, my fellow Orbitalite and to hopefully get some kind of dialogue going where the 40k community can hopefully break the trend GW seems to be adopting: Ruining their own IP.
~Good Hunting

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Val'Sitsor
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#2 » Nov 27 2016 03:41

Actually, in this particular case I don’t understand why people complain. “Maintaining status quo” isn’t bad thing by default. Good or bad, it is depending on how they handle this fluff. I agree that our campaign books wasn’t great, But not because “status quo” thing. Just imagine, GW take fluff realistically and without this issue. “Imperium finally recognize tau as a treat and instead of task force send the whole crusade. Tau fought bravely but in the end Tau Empire was mercilessly crushed and every single tau in the Galaxy is dead”. Will you be happy with this? Status quo is changed this way.

And this lead us to the Wrath of Magnus. As a Thousand Sons fan off course I would prefer if Fenris was blown up and all wolfs died in pity whining. But destroying the whole faction isn’t an answer. And what was done is enough for me. After all, “status quo” was changed even if just a little. Magnus steal this famous “Power Of Fenris”, the planet became even more dangerous and unsuited for humans. Local population mutated and Inquisition will kill everyone who saw the demons (and that means almost everyone). Wolfs agree with this. In the end wolfs lost their recruit base (they can’t take neophytes from other planets after all) and if not defeated but basically dead in the long run. Honorable death in Thirteen Black Crusade is their only way. I’m satisfied with this.
This talks about “they didn’t change status quo”, “we moving forward to the Age Of Emperor” and “They killing my 40k” frustrate me to no end. As a rule, people who don’t actually read stuff said this after reading some discussion on forums. Modern community take a lot of pleasure from generating panic, it almost like they want Age Of Emperor and destroying of 40k, because they saw divine sign of this in pretty much everything. Bonus point, I saw the wolf players who complain about issue of wolfs weren’t wipe out completely. I can’t comprehend this, it is some form of masochism.
Disclaimer: I’m not dedicated GW supporter or anything, I disappointed by many their decisions in the past and in the present. But they change they direction to the better recently, so I agree to trust them just a little and see how things turns out. And I just can’t stand this overreaction on every single wh40k release.

P.S. Am I the only one who can't see anything under the spoiler tag?

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Kael'yn
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#3 » Nov 27 2016 04:33

The SW fan I am hope that Russ will go out of his retirement castle to kick some butts. And bring the news that the planet he spent the last ten millennia is a planet quite similar to Fenris...

40k fluff freeze was good before because most of factions existed from the last 10 millennia, under cover (nids, inq, ...) or not.
But necrons full army awaken and tau establish themselves in the last days of the story, with new fluff to fit, new wargear to explain, ... So you cannot play with them a battle happening in M34.
And GW made mistake by detailing more the storyline just before midnight and less between HH and nowadays.

I only pray that 40k fluff will not get the StarWars Expanded Universe fate... Like the emprah awake suddenly from a vision when meditati g before going onto horus ship and told himself "this [40k current fluff] is what happened if I kill Horus"

PS: spoiler tag don't work for me too.

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Kakapo42
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#4 » Nov 27 2016 04:50

As a Warhammer Fantasy enthusiast and survivor of the ET series, you don't need to draw comparisons to a popular book series to strike a chord with me - I'm already aware of the danger.

I've been seeing problems with the new direction of 40k for a while now - indeed it's one of the reasons that I'm so critical of the last two Warzone Damocles books, and I've been pushing for more community independence from GW when it comes to background material for years now for similar reasons. One thing I noticed you didn't touch on, however, and which is perhaps my greatest concern with the recent background developments is the agency that we, the hobbyists, have over our own background. There's a quote on TVtropes under the page for 'Creator's Pet' by a writer who once worked for RPG manufacturer White Wolf, writing background for the World of Darkness series of tabletop RPGs.

Dean Shomshak, quoted by TVtropes wrote:That's the other thing: [White Wolf] hires people who want to tell stories. But, the only characters they have to tell stories about are the NPCs. So, they tell stories about the NPCs.
Gods, I wanted to smack some of my fellow writers upside the head on some Vampire projects when they burbled on about the cool things they'd have Hardestadt do, or whoever. What were the *PCs* supposed to do?


I feel like the problem Dean Shomshak highlighted is also a major part of the problem with modern GW background. Ultimately the big named special characters like Shadowsun or Farsight or Aun'va or the (Demon) Primarchs are, on at least some level, 40k's NPC equivalents - background characters around which you can pinion your own stories. At the same time, the writers at GW, whether they be in the Black Library or the main GW design studio, are people who want to tell stories. But of course they can only really tell stories about the big named characters (unless they're in the Black Library and invent their own like Ravenor or Eisenhorn). Consequently they end up writing big cool stories about the named characters, without considering what implications that may have on hobbyist-generated background. And indeed, my overall reaction to developments like those in the last two Warzone Damocles books was "OK. Great. What is my Tau fleet located around the Damocles Gulf and the associated characters supposed to do?" Likewise, my reaction to the ET series was largely "OK. Great. What are my armies and characters supposed to do?"

The upshot of all this is that my complaint is actually the reverse - I don't think the problem is that the status quo isn't being changed enough, I think it's being changed too much. Because when a top-down 'offical' advancement like Warzone Damocles or Wrath of Magnus happens, and the background is bad, because it is core background it is effectively forced on hobbyists regardless of whether they want it or not, with little if any room to manoeuvre around it. It's easy to apply GW's traditional 'Everything is canon but not everything is true' stance to, say, a BL novel for example, because the events contained within it are likely to be able to be neatly contained in a subjective experience. But something like the Damocles Gulf being on fire, or Magnus doing something big to Fenris, is an event or phenomenon that can be objectively observed (it is after all rather hard to say something isn't on fire if you're looking right at the burning object in question), and thus is much harder to dismiss in that way. One of my biggest fears about 40k is that GW will release a campaign book about the Zone of Silence, thus rendering all the work on the Into Silence project incompatible with official background.

The solution I use is simple - ignore any offending GW background and effectively act independent from GW background. ATT already has a substantial 'expanded universe' of its own, and is fully capable of producing high-quality 40k background on its own. Indeed the ATT community seems to have distanced itself somewhat from GW background in recent times, as seen in the common consensus against novels written by a certain Enemy of the Empire and to ignore the retcon for Tau FTL travel introduced in the 6th edition codex, and I see little reason why this philosophy couldn't be extended to other unpopular background material - the Damocles Gulf being on fire strikes me as a prime candidate for such treatment, given that much like the FTL retcon it is a particularly egregious contravention of fundamental realities (only where the FTL retcon is an egregious case of science fiction writers not having a sense of scale, the Damocles Gulf being on fire is an egregious case of space not working that way). I am however an extremely strong believer in every hobbyist having the freedom to control their background in whatever way they wish, and I admit my experience with Warhammer Fantasy and the ET series has left me quite burned by GW, so a more moderate solution may be preferable.


P.S. Am I the only one who can't see anything under the spoiler tag?


PS: spoiler tag don't work for me too.


The spoiler code isn't working anywhere at the moment, it's one of the new site's teething problems. Please rest assured that it is being looked into by the senior admins. :)
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ARC'Thunder
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#5 » Nov 27 2016 12:25

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of this thread is.

Calmsword, we already have your: 3rd Sphere Revisited (home brew), which ostensibly has a purpose beyond complaining about the official fluff by proposing an alternate timeline of events. This however? I'm not sure what the goal is or what, if anything, could arise out of a discussion here.

Right now, after three responses, the only "solutions" we have to this growing issue are: keep an open mind and accept it, or cherry-pick whatever one doesn't like out of the lore. Both of these options are what many people already do, and, quite frankly, the only real options available to hobbyists who are unhappy with the lore. However, the cherry-picking option doesn't leave much room for discussion with people who either accept all the fluff or cherry-pick different parts of it.

So, with that knowledge, this thread is set up to pit people who accept new fluff against those who don't, to accomplish... what?

pilky
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#6 » Nov 27 2016 03:40

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the complaint is here. I mean we've had a status quo for many, many years, with things barely moving forward. In the past year or two we've seen GW moving the hand closer to midnight on the doomsday clock (and if the rumours are true that will continue for quite a while more). It's quite exciting that the fluff is moving forward and that things are changing. It allows for new units and new armies.

Fluff has always been somewhat tangential to 40k as a game, so it's not quite the same as an RPG where the story IS the game. Not everyone may like the direction of the fluff, but that happens with any worthwhile story, and it doesn't really impact the game too much. The Damocles Gulf being on fire doesn't stop me fielding my Tau on the tabletop. I think the only real problem is the 40k universe is so big that it takes GW a while to get round to an army again to continue their story.

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Ell'ran
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#7 » Nov 27 2016 03:52

At least the discourse in this thread is well thought out and so far remains civil.

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TauMan
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#8 » Nov 27 2016 04:39

Calmsword wrote:But now, with the recent leaks coming out of the Wrath of Magnus books, we have another, bleeding, issue:

Prime Bbcode Spoiler: Prime Bbcode Spoiler Show


Okay first things first. My dear tau'fann Calmsword, would you please re-post the spoiler (hidden spoiler be damned!) as we're all in the dark as to what the specific material suppose to be discussing. Whatever this 40K "weirdness" is we can't talk about, it if we don't know what it is. Thanks. ;)

Now on to Boom Wolf
ARC'Thunder wrote:Calmsword, we already have your: 3rd Sphere Revisited (home brew), which ostensibly has a purpose beyond complaining about the official fluff by proposing an alternate timeline of events. This however? I'm not sure what the goal is or what, if anything, could arise out of a discussion here...

So, with that knowledge, this thread is set up to pit people who accept new fluff against those who don't, to accomplish... what?


Dear Shas'fann Boom Wolf - Kinot kelstek, since we're missing the information, that is central to the main point of Calmnsword's post; I would ask that you give him and this tread, the benefit of the doubt. I for one would would like to the know the "data" so far hidden by the glitch in the spoiler function. So far this thread, IMHO, is not intended to pit one point of view over another; or one group over another.

Some of the more militant members here may have suggested we follow our own path, but as to provoking civil war. No I don't think so.

Kakapo42 my dear tau'fann and esteemed Korvatta commander.

I am not going to attempt to quote you, as you had so much to say. However, you have a good point about how a game (RPG or Table-top) needs to include the players. Never gave it much thought before, but you're correct. Fluff is as much a part of the hobby as the game and modeling are. Really, beyond the aesthetics of a Tau army looks, most people (IMHO) play Tau because of the "noble bright" aspect of their fluff. As GW has pushed for narrative play in wh40k, then allowing the players and their armies/fleets/characters into the storyline would seem to be a no brainer.

Example: What if GW had published in the Farsight Codex, instead of "The Eight" there was "The Seven plus one" i.e. the eighth Tau commander being the player's personal character? Pulls in the player by putting his Shas'o into the mix. Just a thought.

Sorry, but I gotta run.
TauMan

PS
Kael'yn wrote:I only pray that 40k fluff will not get the StarWars Expanded Universe fate... Like the emprah awake suddenly from a vision when meditati g before going onto horus ship and told himself "this [40k current fluff] is what happened if I kill Horus"

About Star Wars: I'm still mad at Joseph Campbell (author of Hero of a Thousand Faces) for catching the ear of George Lucas. Before that, Darth Vader WASN'T Luke's father. :(
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Ell'ran
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#9 » Nov 27 2016 07:37

TauMan wrote:
Calmsword wrote:But now, with the recent leaks coming out of the Wrath of Magnus books, we have another, bleeding, issue:

Prime Bbcode Spoiler: Prime Bbcode Spoiler Show


Okay first things first. My dear tau'fann Calmsword, would you please re-post the spoiler (hidden spoiler be damned!) as we're all in the dark as to what the specific material suppose to be discussing. Whatever this 40K "weirdness" is we can't talk about, it if we don't know what it is. Thanks. ;)

If you want to view the spoiler you can simply quote Calmsword and read the text there before you hit Submit.

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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#10 » Nov 27 2016 09:37

Ell'ran wrote: If you want to view the spoiler you can simply quote Calmsword and read the text there before you hit Submit.
Thanks Ell'ran for the work around! This should probably be posted by the Mods as the official work around until the Spoiler glitch gets fixed.


BBCODE SPOILER GLITCH WORK AROUND
Step 1: While viewing the post select the Bbcode Spoiler text.
Step 2: Click on the large quotation marks (") on upper right hand corner (Reply With Quote button).
Step 3: The text of the post, including the text of the spoiler, will appear in the reply test.
Step 4: Read text and then discard the reply.

IMPORTANT: Don't hit the reply button first and then try to select and view the Bbcode spoiler. It will not be visible.


Now back to the subject of Calmsword's post...


Holy Mother of the Emperor! :eek:
This has to be most unconscionable, irrational, and downright insane retcon since, well The Damocles Gulf is Burning! To destroy the Space Wolves at the beginning of the Horus Hersey effectively writes them out of the next 10,000 years of the WH40K universe! Which is what would happen if you killed (spoiler alert!) the entire human population of Fenris. The only human population that the Space Wolves use to draw new recruits from. This retcon changes very foundation of the Space Wolves. What about all Space Wolf codices from the 3rd edition to 7th edition? All the Space Wolf novels, novellas and short stories from Black Library? All the articles published in White Dwarf? All the Forge World fluff?

Why in the name of the Holy Emperor of Mankind would GW do this?

Unless this means...(gulp)...The End Times are upon us! :dead: :dead: :dead: And The Age of Emprah has arrived!

At this point, I say our only option is out resistance! Maybe we should heed the words of our brother Commander Farsight. And Then join him and his followers on the other side of the Damocles Gulf.

But personally I don't have a clue, how the A.T.T. community should respond to this? I can't even imagine how things are going over on Chainsword and Bolter forum?

At this point...I feel like it's November 7th 2016 all over again.

The TauMan
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ARC'Thunder
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#11 » Nov 27 2016 09:58

TauMan wrote:Now on to Boom Wolf
ARC'Thunder wrote:Calmsword, we already have your: 3rd Sphere Revisited (home brew), which ostensibly has a purpose beyond complaining about the official fluff by proposing an alternate timeline of events. This however? I'm not sure what the goal is or what, if anything, could arise out of a discussion here...

So, with that knowledge, this thread is set up to pit people who accept new fluff against those who don't, to accomplish... what?


Dear Shas'fann Boom Wolf - Kinot kelstek, since we're missing the information, that is central to the main point of Calmnsword's post; I would ask that you give him and this tread, the benefit of the doubt. I for one would would like to the know the "data" so far hidden by the glitch in the spoiler function. So far this thread, IMHO, is not intended to pit one point of view over another; or one group over another.

Boomwolf has yet to make a post in this thread. I am ARC'Thunder.

Calmsword's spoilered text is irrelevant to my point, which seems to remain unchallenged: What is the purpose of this thread? What is it's goal? What productive discussion is being had?

The closest thing to a constructive goal we have is: "get some kind of dialogue going where the 40k community can hopefully break the trend GW seems to be adopting: Ruining their own IP." And in the posts that address the subject we can see either "give it a chance" or a reiteration of the initial complaint.

TauMan wrote:To destroy the Space Wolves at the beginning of the Horus Hersey effectively writes them out of the next 10,000 years of the WH40K universe! Which is what would happen if you killed (spoiler alert!) the entire human population of Fenris. The only human population that the Space Wolves use to draw new recruits from. This retcon changes very foundation of the Space Wolves. What about all Space Wolf codices from the 3rd edition to 7th edition? All the Space Wolf novels, novellas and short stories from Black Library? All the articles published in White Dwarf? All the Forge World fluff?

What are you talking about? Nothing has been retconned. Calmsword mentioned the conclusion to the Fenris campaign which is contemporary 40k, 999.M41, etc.

Again, what is the point of this thread?

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Ell'ran
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#12 » Nov 27 2016 10:30

TauMan wrote:At this point, I say our only option is out resistance! Maybe we should heed the words of our brother Commander Farsight. And Then join him and his followers on the other side of the Damocles Gulf.


You can't do that, the Gulf is on fire.

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Val'Sitsor
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#13 » Nov 27 2016 11:30

TauMan, no offense, but your reaction is exactly what I was talking about (I still hope it was a joke). When it comes to spoilers and rumors misinterpretation always occurs. In most hilarious way possible. I remember the moment when Traitors Hate was published. GW clearly wrote, that loyalist forces suffered greater losses despite having advantage in almost everything (and Kharn with his berserkers, who slaughter chaos and loyalist alike) , the sorcerer achieved his goal and there was only one thing chaos didn't do - they didn't wipe out first company of Blood Angels completely (and it would be a bad idea, wouldn't it?) . But it didn't stop anyone from complaining about "chaos lose as always", "13 Black Crusade was failed from the start" and so on.

In this particular case only thing that was retconed is 13 Black Crusade. And for reason. After it failed last time chaos discredited itself as a treat. We have Failbadone the Disapointer, books about Ciaphas Cain assure us that everything is fine in M42 and even tyranids are no longer a treat because solution was found. Imperium is victorious... wait... where is my Grim Dark Future? GW want to draw the finale line of timeline anew. 13 Black Crusade with Daemon Primarchs and End Times for Imperium (as it was always stated in the rulebooks as long as I can remember). All recent campaigns lead to this.

With all respect to Kakapo42, I should add one thing to all the tropes he listed. To the GW credit, right now they have UnpleasableFanbase. If they do anything there would be complains. And if they don't do anything there would be complains. Their current course of action is by no means optimal (there is Beast Series after all, brrrr), but not that terrible either. Kakapo42 mention, that characters from the lore are NPC and pointed out the problem with this. I admit that his analysis is correct, but I constructed my own lore in a way which avoid this problem from the beginning (I tried to be as much independent from major characters and event as it possible, exactly because I don't own them). And because of this it is hard for me to fully empathize with his position. In my opinion, we should expect this treatment from the start and take preparations accordingly.

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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#14 » Dec 01 2016 03:46

Right now, after three responses, the only "solutions" we have to this growing issue are: keep an open mind and accept it, or cherry-pick whatever one doesn't like out of the lore. Both of these options are what many people already do, and, quite frankly, the only real options available to hobbyists who are unhappy with the lore. However, the cherry-picking option doesn't leave much room for discussion with people who either accept all the fluff or cherry-pick different parts of it.


ARC'Thunder: The purpose of this post is to start a discussion amongst a community I am a part of, have invested in, and am eager to learn more from. The point of having a community is to have discussions- I'm not pitting anyone against one another, I'm highlighting recent developments in a hobby... That in itself would be the purpose of this or any other message board community at least in part. No?

Cherry picking is a time honored tradition amongst the explosion of interest in nerd-intellectual properties by Star Wars. Anyone older than 30 is going to remember that the only outlet for wanting 'new' or 'fresh' stories in that universe was by going to the Expanding Universe (Thrawn, Black Fleet Crisis, Shadows of the Empire)- All of which cherry picked and grew up a magnificent story which, is now, gone and being cherry picked itself.

We know that that GW, BL and FW all use this site in particular for research just as Tau Online, Warseer and Dakka Dakka are used= To gauge the temperature of the community. This topic is a concern I have as a member of the hobby and community= I'm interested in seeing if other people feel the same which in turn.

I find it disheartening to think I'm just trying to bait two mindsets into some kind of open conflict and after years of talking to each other you should know I'm not doing that.

Additionally, this post is directly discussing the leaked Magnus book about to come out. As you've noted I've already voiced my concerns about the Mont'ka book.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the complaint is here. I mean we've had a status quo for many, many years, with things barely moving forward. In the past year or two we've seen GW moving the hand closer to midnight on the doomsday clock (and if the rumours are true that will continue for quite a while more). It's quite exciting that the fluff is moving forward and that things are changing. It allows for new units and new armies.


Pilky: Sorry for responding so late to this forum. The complaint isn't in keeping the status quo= it's what's happening to the fluff itself. End Times brought decisive conclusions to all the many threads of Fantasy and then, twist, blew up the planet and completely ended the Fantasy storyline... To the horror of many people in that community which in turn resulted in a new community forming with hundreds of gamers and authors rejecting AoS and remaining in a new age of the Fantasy game and storyline that ignores AoS to a successful degree.

My interest in looking at what might be happening to 40k is that we might be getting our own 'blow up' but more importantly there is a mishandling of fluff (the soul of the game many would argue) that is out of line with the established storyline and the rules it plays by. For example: The Space Wolves allowing the Fenrisians to be culled is in direct contradiction to the Space Wolves sticking up for the 'little guy'... And why? What was accomplished? The status quo was kept at the cost of one of the founding principles of that chapter.

At least the discourse in this thread is well thought out and so far remains civil.


Agreed (and I hope there is no perceived 'tone' in my post) we're all cordial here.

Val'Sitsor

With all respect to Kakapo42, I should add one thing to all the tropes he listed. To the GW credit, right now they have UnpleasableFanbase. If they do anything there would be complains.


And that's true. The fanbase is upset- and shaking something up to the extent that they seem to be doing is at least going to point them in a direction with NEW stories. I found myself hating the Beast series in the beginning but in the end actually go on board with it.

Again, since there is so much hands-shaking 'what is the point of this post'= This is the point of it. Each one of us, as educated members of the 40k community, should bring up things we're enjoy and things we don't. And it's not just railing against the perceived injustices of the people forging a new path, it's my voiced concern.

And, please remember, I'm also interested in everyone's opinion on the matter. The Tau were dealt a crippling blow to their story: A gulf of empty space is now on fire, cutting the Empire off from their Third Sphere, Farsight returning to a hivefleet and a Caste system without it's Highest Ethereal- those are big steps that fell badly on the community to a great extent (if the internet and local shops can ever be the thermometer for our hobby) yet GW clearly regarded as a hit due to an uptick in sales (bigger battlesuits).

Now it's happening to another faction and, conceivably, every faction. I want to talk about that and what that means for 40k as a whole- this is the forum to have that conversation.
~Good Hunting

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Val'Sitsor
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Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#15 » Dec 01 2016 04:43

Pilky: Sorry for responding so late to this forum. The complaint isn't in keeping the status quo= it's what's happening to the fluff itself. End Times brought decisive conclusions to all the many threads of Fantasy and then, twist, blew up the planet and completely ended the Fantasy storyline... To the horror of many people in that community which in turn resulted in a new community forming with hundreds of gamers and authors rejecting AoS and remaining in a new age of the Fantasy game and storyline that ignores AoS to a successful degree.

My interest in looking at what might be happening to 40k is that we might be getting our own 'blow up' but more importantly there is a mishandling of fluff (the soul of the game many would argue) that is out of line with the established storyline and the rules it plays by. For example: The Space Wolves allowing the Fenrisians to be culled is in direct contradiction to the Space Wolves sticking up for the 'little guy'... And why? What was accomplished? The status quo was kept at the cost of one of the founding principles of that chapter.


As a person who payed close attention to the words of most solid rumormongers and eventually ADB for last couple of years, I want to assure you, wh40k wouldn't be "blown up". As I say earlier, most likely that GW just want to establish new "freeze point" of timeline. We will suffer some "plot twists" a la Beast Series I'm afraid, but nothing like fantasy End Of Times. Everyone who prove himself reliable source last years said so. And because of this every "apocalypse cult" in the web build around misinterpretations and vague wild guesses frustrates me. As I can see, you had no intentions to build one, but I was afraid of it.

On your second point, you concern is understandable, but it will became meaningful only when we read the book itself. As I mention earlier, new GW campaigns tends to be significantly less silly than you can tell from the spoilers and internet discussions. I recommend you to wait a little. May be details bring all this in different light. As far as I know, fenris' inhabitants started to mutate rapidly after demon invasion and that thing that Magnus done with the Power Of Fenris. "No suffer mutant to live" after all. And may be, just may be, after Armageddon and all lives lost because of their foolish "nobility" wolfs finally learned their lesson? May be they are smart enough to not step on the same rake after all and this was one of the main points of the story?
This is the point of the context and the point of viewpoint. What one can see as "terrible twist of wolfs lore", another one can perceive as completely justified step. Already established discontinuity of the fluff (thing with wolfs being executioners as example ) certainly doesn't help. And there is one more things to that. Almost everything that happens in the new fluff could be substantiated and be justified with some logic. The main question is do you want to justify it or to disproof it? and "what GW do to make us want to justify it?". When our campaign books was published the answer on the second question was "almost nothing", but things slightly changed now. They even allow Fehervari to write second novel with some relations to Fire Cast and other Dark Coil stories.
So I refuse to shout "The end is near" and run in circles.
*remembering about new Farsight book by Phill Kelly*
Or may be not....
:::(

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ARC'Thunder
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 850

Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#16 » Dec 01 2016 04:46

Calmsword wrote:ARC'Thunder: The purpose of this post is to start a discussion amongst a community I am a part of, have invested in, and am eager to learn more from. The point of having a community is to have discussions- I'm not pitting anyone against one another, I'm highlighting recent developments in a hobby... That in itself would be the purpose of this or any other message board community at least in part. No?

Again, my point is that every post can only be a list of grievances or an acceptance of the lore. And neither kind of post really addresses your goal to "break the trend GW seems to be adopting: Ruining their own IP.". As a community we cannot stop GW from "ruining" their own IP. We have no direct control over what BL and GW codex authors write—even BL authors have to work within whatever nebulous parameters their editors have for the setting and its factions, and don't have unlimited power to shape the fluff at their whim.

Like you, and many other tau hobbyists, I have some many complaints about individual or overarching narrative and lore decisions made by GW, FW, and BL. However, listing them here does nothing.

This thread is unlike your 3rd Sphere Revisited thread wherein you can actually produce something that other hobbyists can benefit from: a homebrewed setting/alternate timeline of events (as a project it promotes discussion and collaboration within the community, and it has a tangible benefit for everyone). Another good example would be reviewing individual books or codices, and having a relevant discussion and critiquing there. In both of these kinds of topics, it would be easier to illustrate issues for a relevant GW/FW/BL writer to see where they've gone wrong. (Although, other than the few known BL presences we have here, I really don't think this site is actually a major resource for all tau authors—certainly, Kelly is not among them—because our community has been complaining about our "recent" lore for several years now.)

In any case, I'm willing to sit and watch this thread to see if anything of value is actually forthcoming. However I strongly recommend this discussion be restructured and rerouted to either your 3rd Sphere Revisited thread, or into reviews and discussions for a given novel or campaign book (reviews for Wrath of Magnus can start in earnest this weekend!).

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Calmsword
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1515

Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#17 » Dec 01 2016 05:20

Again, my point is that every post can only be a list of grievances or an acceptance of the lore.


That's like saying there is no point in reacting to current events... What would be the point of a message board if not to discuss... anything.

As a community we cannot stop GW from "ruining" their own IP.


As stated, Warseer, Dakka- any number of the forums that existed including GW's own Community Forum caused major changes in the way they manage their company. I feel like you think like these places don't really matter in the scheme of things: They do- I can't stress this enough.

Like you, and many other tau hobbyists, I have some many complaints about individual or overarching narrative and lore decisions made by GW, FW, and BL. However, listing them here does nothing.


Again- history backs up the opposite of that. The Tau gamer community wanted more suits, they got them. They wanted more grim darkness, they got it and when no one liked that direction; They killed Aun'va off.

Frankly, GW's history is littered with them listening to their community; We are that community. Not exclusively, obviously, but I feel like your nickel and diming yourself.

This thread is unlike your 3rd Sphere Revisited thread wherein you can actually produce something that other hobbyists can benefit from: a homebrewed setting/alternate timeline of events (as a project it promotes discussion and collaboration within the community, and it has a tangible benefit for everyone).


This post is my own attention being drawn to a growing trend in 40k fluff being drastically altered. The fact that other members are even talking about it makes this post worth having- dialogue for the sake of dialogue has an intrinsic value in any cohesive community- something most other websites don't have. I have a concern- I voice it- we talk about it. I don't want to waste anyone's time but I want to work through what I see as a 'issue' on the horizon.

Val'Sitsor:
On your second point, you concern is understandable, but it will became meaningful only when we read the book itself. As I mention earlier, new GW campaigns tends to be significantly less silly than you can tell from the spoilers and internet discussions. I recommend you to wait a little.


And maybe you're right.

The main question is do you want to justify it or to disproof it?


I think that's the crux of the dilemma. As ARC'Thunder posted, the last time they pushed the narrative forward (and nowhere) I tried posting a list of events that could line up with "logic". But it was easy because it was Tau. Now, as I watch Space Wolf players bemoan the randomness of these leaks, and you're right again these are just leaks, I think that all factions have to figure out how to adapt these new developments and maybe even cherry pick from a much wider list of events in order to continue enjoying the game.

What I don't want is to reject this game wholeheartedly like that guy that set fire to his army when Fantasy blew up.
~Good Hunting

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Bitterman
Shas
Posts: 909

Re: Fluff Problems: A growing issue

Post#18 » Dec 01 2016 05:52

Ultimately all this is a consequence of the perennial complaint that "GW don't advance the story".

40K is (or was!) a setting, not a story. Now they're advancing the story, and it's invalidating the fluff people imagined for themselves, contradicting established characters and incidents, diving down nonsensical rabbit holes to chase the narrative necessity of every incident being more dramatic than the last, and - worst of all - not doing anything meaningful anyway because you simply can't, for example, wipe out the Space Wolves; because then what would the Space Wolf players all do?

A wargames setting like 40K makes for a terrible story because, by design and by necessity, it lacks any of the structure that stories require to be meaningful. (The corollary is that the 40K setting has always been a wonderful place in which to set stories but it is not, itself, a story). Sadly modern GW does not realise this, and thus we unnecessarily find ourselves in an incoherent narrative mess. Sadly also: it's the fans' fault, with so many of them having complained about the lack of "advancement" for so long. GW are giving them what they asked for, and more people are starting to realise why it wasn't advanced before now.

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