Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Discuss Tau background and even your own Cadre fiction here.
User avatar
SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 172

Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#1 » Jul 21 2017 04:31

So, just wondering about something, can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera, or is it tau only?
it is something, with me using gue'vesa in the Siege of Mortus story, that I really need to know.
Can any of you loremasters help me out?
:D
Tau'va

Sniper

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3542

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#2 » Jul 21 2017 04:36

Well I'm sure they could simulate something like that among themselves but joining such a bond with T'au Firewarrior? Nop, not gonna happen.
That doesn't mean though that they can't be very close and trusted comrades.

User avatar
SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 172

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#3 » Jul 21 2017 04:48

Ok. I thought that was the case.

Thanks.

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 385

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#4 » Jul 21 2017 08:16

The bond is mainly a symbolic thing, if I understand it correctly, it creates (or confirms) an idea in their minds that they trust each other so much they'll allow each other to severely cut each other, a situation where one wrong cut could kill with ease. So it isn't some magic(warp) ritual, it's simply a persuasion tool.

And as with other good persuasion tools (ie. commercials), you might know how it works, you might know other will try to manipulate you, you might not like it and try to resist to it's influence, but it will still work to some degree.

As such tool, I'm fairly confident it would work for a group of humans, given proper framing, some military drilling isn't that far from it and you can probably find some native tribe (today, not in 40k) that performs similar rituals as rite of passage.

Now back to the question. Most likely the tau doing such ritual would simply exclude any humans from it, even if they had humans fighting along with them. But if a mixed tau-human group performed ritual would be successful or not, would depend on the mindsets and innate reactions of both humans and tau to each other. Not to add that anatomy of both species is very different, I imagine knowing each others anatomy would be required to do such ritual safely, and such knowledge wouldn't help on the "every1 is the same" front.

With how much I know about these things, I don't think such ritual could be even remotely effective, though ofc it could be in certain rare situations, it just isn't somethign you could do on regular basis and expect good results from it.

User avatar
Val'Sitsor
Shas'Saal
Posts: 142

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#5 » Jul 21 2017 10:33

In Broken Sword, written by Guy Haley the water caste diplomat advice to main character (who is gue'vesa and leader of bodyguard team) to undertake ta'lissera or close analog from his culture with his squad. And "ta'lissera" (in the form of hadshake) between him and main character is crucial moment of the story.

So it not nessesary need to be the same ritual, it is meaning behind that matters. And it is possible to achieve this bond between tau and human
Last edited by Val'Sitsor on Jul 21 2017 01:36, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TauMan
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 588
Contact:

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#6 » Jul 21 2017 01:13

Gragagrogog wrote:The bond is mainly a symbolic thing, if I understand it correctly, it creates (or confirms) an idea in their minds that they trust each other so much they'll allow each other to severely cut each other, a situation where one wrong cut could kill with ease. So it isn't some magic(warp) ritual, it's simply a persuasion tool.


My Word is my Bond
The whole of the WH40K universe is bound up in the quasi-medieval chivalric milieu. From the "knights in space" of the Adetpus Astartes, to the "Nuns with guns" of the Adepta Soroitas. Each Space Marine chapters having their own livery colours, battle standards, and honours. The Black Templars are of course named for the Order of the Knights Templar, a medieval order of fighting monastics. And oath taking is very much part of the "knighthood trope" that you see it when an adept becomes a full fledged Space Marine.

Ta'lissera is then another kind of oath taking; which binds of one individual to another and to the group, by swearing an oath of allegiance. So we're back to "My word is my bond".

Though the earth and fire caste ritual of ta'lissera has more of a Mongolian/Tartar tribal ritual feel to it. Though my idea is that the Tau bond together easier than humans, and therefore the ritual is more of a recognition of what is already there. There is more to this idea, but you read it here in this discussion thread, Children of the Tau’va.

Val'Sitsor wrote:In Broken Sword, written by Guy Haley the water caste diplomat advice to main character (who is gue'vesa and leader of bodyguard team) to undertake ta'lissera or close analog from his culture with his squad. And "ta'lissera" (in the forn of hadshake) between him and main character is crucial moment of the story.

So it not necessary need to be the same ritual, it is meaning behind that matters. And it is possible to achieve this bond between tau and human


Well you're correct about the meaning behind the ritual that maters. Ta'lissera, however is a powerful ritual, and carries a deep cultural significance for both the earth and fire castes. Sounds like Guy Haley didn't really understand the significance of ta'lissera, never mind that ta'lissera isn't something the water caste does. It's more than just a "promise" done by a handshake. (Water and Air castes most probably have their own rituals that would be the equivalent to ta'lissera.)

On Topic:
This is my take on it the idea of humans and ta'lissera. Humans in the Tau Empire are allowed to have their own religion, either worshiping the Cult of the Emperor or not; and have their own political and social organizations. All of which is still under the Greater Good, so it makes sense that they might allow human soldiers and workers to adopt av version of the ta'lissera ritual.

And there might be cases of a mixed unit of fire warrriors and gue'vesa would be joined in together in ta'lissera; but...it would depend on the fire caste of that particular sept. I could see some Septs not allowing it, while other only in special cases; while others would allow it without reservation.

TauMan
Viro’los gu brath!
N.Y.A.B.X.T.T.

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 385

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#7 » Jul 21 2017 01:35

Aye, I totally forgot the social aspect of it outside of combat. I kept thinking of it as something that would make them less likely to flee, but it also has other significance in society... So take what I wrote from that perspective...

User avatar
Val'Sitsor
Shas'Saal
Posts: 142

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#8 » Jul 21 2017 01:53

Isn't ta'lissera common to all tau, no matter the caste? Earth and fire castes were presented in codex as an example and I see nothing that prevents air caste crew or flight unit to undertake the same ritual. And there is several examples that water caste also use ta'lissera ritual in literature (from the sources with variable creditability, but still).
And Guy Haley did nothing wrong. Do you actually read the Broken Sword? This particular "just a handshake" between main character and water caste ambassador WAS equally significant to the ta'lissera in given circumstances. Ta'lissera is a Tau'Va in miniature, the Greater Good for group, where whole is much greater and important than individual and this bonds are related not only to brother-in-arms relationship of the Fire Caste. This concept is crucial to Tau as a culture, as civilization. And in Broken Sword this was depicted just right with relationship between those two. Taking into accaunt that as a result of this "just a handshake" one of them give up his life to the Greater Good and another "give up his life to the Greater Good" I think it was significant enough.

User avatar
TauMan
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 588
Contact:

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#9 » Jul 21 2017 03:16

Val'Sitsor wrote:Isn't ta'lissera common to all tau, no matter the caste?


The ritual of ta'lissera is a tradition of the fire and earth castes. In the first ever Tau codex, Codex: Tau is a short story of the ta'lissera ritual. And shorter version of the same story appeared in the second codex, Tau Empire. And I swear A.T.T. use to have the complete short story in the Water Caste/Library/Card Catalog section. But maybe it had to be removed for violation of Games Workshop's IP? (Old Timer's help me out here!) If you can get your hands on a Codex:Tau and you can read the complete story.

Ta'lissera is defined as meaning both "communion" and "marriage".

The Oath of the Ta'lissera Ceremony
"By the power of my blood and the blood of my fellow fire warriors. I pledge that we shall forever be bond as brothers. My life is your life, your life is my life. What we do now we do together. I have no place but inside the band and all that I do from this moment is in its name."

The sept symbol is carved into the chest of each the firewarrior in the ceremony with the bonding knife, and then they all drink a bowl of hot ky'husa.

As Guy Haley, no I haven't read his story yet; but it just doesn't sound right. Maybe I'm a little gun shy, after Crisis of Faith by Phill Kelly.

TauMan
Last edited by TauMan on Jul 21 2017 08:41, edited 1 time in total.
Viro’los gu brath!
N.Y.A.B.X.T.T.

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 385

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#10 » Jul 21 2017 03:38

TauMan wrote:Ta'lissera is defined as meaning both "communion" and "marriage".


Just to note, there probably wouldn't be a clear equivalent of human marriage for tau, since there is much lower parental investment in offsprings... Also, as they are pictured, Tau aren't sexually dimorphic(to a point where you wouldn't know the difference in physical performance or in looks, without looking at heads or their reproductive organs(there may ofc be other subtle differences like shape/size of certain bones, but I don't think any resource goes into that detail)). Not sure about their state of monogamy, I would guess that would differ from caste to caste and more diversely in individuals, also septs might have different traditions, but I wouldn't bet on one sept being much different than another in this, unless different septs also differ a lot on r/K scale.

User avatar
SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 172

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#11 » Jul 21 2017 03:45

Cool. So depending on sept in the tau empire, they could perform ta'lissera with fire caste.
What about the enclaves?

User avatar
TauMan
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 588
Contact:

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#12 » Jul 21 2017 08:22

Fire and Ice by Peter Fehervari, 2016, 2017 ebook Black Library
‘Farsight,’ he murmured, testing the name as Lieutenant Omazet might have done. ‘What’s in a name, xenos?’
‘To a tau, everything,’ the alien replied. ‘Bloodline and sept, caste and rank and conquest.' [pg 65]


Shasdowsun: The Last of Kiru's Line by Braden Campbell, 2013 by Black Library,
"Personal addendum: If I am eventually rescued from this place, you should be made aware that I am considering following my father’s example and taking the Taal Saal’Y." [pg 38]

"She had spent nearly twenty years, a full half of her life, at war. One day, her memorial would grace the Walk of Honour outside the Mont’yr Battle Dome, and future generations would speak her name with reverent whispers. But the awe would come from the children of strangers, for Kiru’s line would be at an end. She couldn’t let that happen. She had a familial duty. But what then of her career, of the Empire that depended on her so? What of her duty to it?" [pg. 51]


The entire subplot of Fire Warrior by Simon Spurrier is Kais trying to live up to the expectations of his late father Shas'O'Shi'ur.


When fire warriors join in ta'lissera and become brothers and sisters, then they would make them a...family right? In the story of the ta'lissera from the first codex, the fire warrior refers to "my ta'lissera" as if he were talking about "my family".

I really think that with 6th edition Games Workshop was trying to turn the Tau into a creepy version of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. With the five Tau castes being the equivalent of the Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta and Epsilon castes. However, Spurrier, Campbell and Fehervari had another idea; and I think I'll go with them.

TauMan

Edit to add reference to "my ta'lissera"
Viro’los gu brath!
N.Y.A.B.X.T.T.

User avatar
Val'Sitsor
Shas'Saal
Posts: 142

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#13 » Jul 22 2017 02:34

The 6th edition codex directly says that ta'lissera is closest equivalent to the term family (and there is nothing that indicate that only Fire and Earth Caste can have "family" bonds). I still fail to see where you find problem and what exactly you want to proof with these quotes. GW indeed add dystopian notes to our lore, but definitely not here. Even Enemy Of The Empire in Enclave supplement empathized significance of ta'lissera as true and sincere bonds.

"family is a foreign concept for tau” doesn’t mean that tau are soulless and without affection and relations to one another except the common believe in the Greater Good, it means that they are not “humans, but blue one” (We often appeal to this problem on ATT, do we?). They perceive bonds between individuals differently, not with blood relation in their foundation, but with true sense of understanding one another, true communality.

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 385

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#14 » Jul 22 2017 02:41

Val'Sitsor wrote: I still fail to see where you find problem and what exactly you want to proof with these quotes.


Wut? It's just a friendly conversation about the topic, nothing more. I don't perceive even the slightest animosity here...

User avatar
Val'Sitsor
Shas'Saal
Posts: 142

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#15 » Jul 22 2017 02:59

Gragagrogog wrote:
Val'Sitsor wrote: I still fail to see where you find problem and what exactly you want to proof with these quotes.


Wut? It's just a friendly conversation about the topic, nothing more. I don't perceive even the slightest animosity here...


Sorry, I didn't mean it as offence too. English isn't my native language and it is likely that I was unable to express myself clearly, or misunderstood something. I just don't understand why Tauman thinks that ta'lissera is depicted wrong in new sources of lore and how this related to " turn the Tau into a creepy version of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World". When the single change in ta’lissera was removal of "Fire and Earth Caste only" part, which to my mind has perfect sense.
And despite the fact that I read all the stories he quoted, and with exception of Campbell deeply respect this authors, I still don't understand what exactly he want to say with this quotes, so I asked for clarifications, that was all.

User avatar
TauMan
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 588
Contact:

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#16 » Jul 22 2017 06:57

Val'Sitsor wrote: Gragagrogog wrote:

Val'Sitsor wrote:
I still fail to see where you find problem and what exactly you want to proof with these quotes.


Wut? It's just a friendly conversation about the topic, nothing more. I don't perceive even the slightest animosity here...


Sorry, I didn't mean it as offence too. English isn't my native language and it is likely that I was unable to express myself clearly, or misunderstood something. I just don't understand why Tauman thinks that ta'lissera is depicted wrong in new sources of lore and how this related to " turn the Tau into a creepy version of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World". When the single change in ta’lissera was removal of "Fire and Earth Caste only" part, which to my mind has perfect sense.


Whoa there fellas!
Gragagrogog I didn't take offense at Val'Sitsor's comments, but takes for coming to my defense. It's okay guys if wedon't agree on topic. Having said that Val'Sitsor you missed my point.

1. The new Tau lore ignores ta'lissera, because (IMHO) GW wants to make the Tau bad guys in WH40k.
2. Therefore we get Brave New World no-family-Tau.
3. Quotes are to show how family is a concept well established within Tau lore


NOTE: We officially left the planetary orbit of this topic - i.e. we're way off topic. Therefore sometime today I'll start a "What is ta'lissera?" topic.

Back on Topic
To Sniper Tau's question about the Enclaves allowing humans to do ta'lissera? Yes, and unlike the Tau Empire, I think the Enclaves would have ta'lisseras of mixed Tau, human, (other?).

TauMan
Viro’los gu brath!
N.Y.A.B.X.T.T.

User avatar
Val'Sitsor
Shas'Saal
Posts: 142

Re: Can Gue'vesa take part in Ta'lissera?

Post#17 » Jul 22 2017 08:28

TauMan wrote:
Whoa there fellas!
Gragagrogog I didn't take offense at Val'Sitsor's comments, but takes for coming to my defense. It's okay guys if wedon't agree on topic. Having said that Val'Sitsor you missed my point.

1. The new Tau lore ignores ta'lissera, because (IMHO) GW wants to make the Tau bad guys in WH40k.
2. Therefore we get Brave New World no-family-Tau.
3. Quotes are to show how family is a concept well established within Tau lore


NOTE: We officially left the planetary orbit of this topic - i.e. we're way off topic. Therefore sometime today I'll start a "What is ta'lissera?" topic.



I would be glad to discuss this matter on appropriate topic. This aspect of tau culture is interesting and important indeed. I probably should just wait for right topic to appear, but I still don’t get how our new lore ignore ta’lissera. Yesterday I specifically read through 4th, 6th and 7th edition of our codex (all that I have in my disposal) and ta’lissera presents in all of them and it’s description didn’t change at all. On the contrary, 6ed codex refers to the ta’lissera at least thrice, slightly expand the topic with little details like “bondmates can call each other by individual names” and so on. The 7th edition barely mention it, but it is another case, because this edition was stripped off ANY lore and was like “There are tau. They have five castes and battlesuits… but who cares?! LOOK AT THIS STORMSURGE, YOU SHOULD BUY TWO OF THEM!!”.
Even Phill Kelly, infamous Enemy Of The Empire constantly brings up ta’lissera and significance of this ritual in his writings. To my tastes, he even makes it look too close to humans and we have this silly “Shadowsun and Farsight love story” because of it. And Broken Sword and Fire and Ice all were published after 6th edition. And line in the codex about family as an alien concept doesn’t mean it like “tau have no bonds between each other” it says “they have ta’lissera instead” literary in the next sentence.
In the case of Kais – he met his father ONES in his whole life. No way it was normal “family relationship” like humans have. Yes, he have deep relation to his father but it was anomaly that almost costs him his mind and soul. And real “father figure” for him in this story was Shas’El’Lusha after all.
The point always was “tau see things differently” not “tau are communal insects” (while imperials sometime perceive tau that way)… but it looks like I went a little overboard here, so let’s continue this discussion in appropriate topic. While I agree that GW makes tau more dystopian in every iteration I steel feel that Brave New World analogy isn’t quite right, so let’s elaborate this a little farther.

Return to “Library”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests