The Tau Sorcerer

Discuss Tau background and even your own Cadre fiction here.
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Panzer
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#19 » Aug 07 2017 04:08

GW wouldn't even have to go that much into the details. Hell Necrons have reality warping technology. Try to explain THAT! ;)

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TauMan
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#20 » Aug 07 2017 08:01

Wow, there is so much to unpack here!

First:
The Tau have been using auxiliary psykers for a long time.
  • Unknown alien race of psykers from Kill Team by Gav Thorpe. A small green bipedal race with big eyes (frog-like?)
  • Nicassar - Space Polar Bears or Space Cephalopod, take your pick
  • Nagi - Small worm like creatures who are powerful psykers.

Conclusion: No reason we should at least have some kind of "defensive" pyskers in our armies.


All this talk about sorcery, science versus magic, would the Tau do it or not, kind of misses the point.
Games Workshop already gave us a huge loop hole!

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How did all of you forget the Space Wolves' Rune Priests? They-don't-use-the-warp! All their power comes from the elements: fire, water, earth, air, lightening, wind, etc. Here's a loop hole so big you could slip in the aircraft carrier U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt in through it sideways.

So, if the Tau were to have some ability with the elements, they might have Shamans:

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Alright, so maybe just the Farsight Enclaves would have Shamans, they being more into that "tribal" stuff and all.

But, power derived from the energy that surrounds everyone and everything sounds like Chi or Ki or Prana. And someone devoted to "being one with the Tau'va and the universe" just might be have some mystical powers? An Ethereal maybe?

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The following quotes are from On Mount Kan'ji by me (shameless plug here :roll: ) My interpretation is that Master Puretide wasn't teaching military strategy, but instead was teaching the Tau'va. A true mountain hermit with connection to all of creation. NOTE: Both Eoral/Kiv'rai'ka are in fact Shas'O'Kais.
"This is the answer to your query as to why I am so fit at my age. This is outcome of following the Tau'va. When one walks in the path of the Tau'va, then he or she is in harmony with all creation. And it is then that the ni – the life energy flows through you and sustains you.” - Acaya Qan'tel, Master Puretide from On Mount Kan'ji

“The Ol'cea'sin (Eldar) and the Gue'la (Humans) think that all power comes from the Vash'aun'an – The Warp. Why this is so I do not know, but both seem to have forgotten about very dimension we live in. Both have forgotten about the abundant presence of life-energy that is everywhere about us. Everything of this reality and of this world, when it is revealed to us, shines forth with the power of life..." - Acaya Qan'tel, Master Puretide from On Mount Kan'ji

Qan'tel still radiated light as he lifted Eoroal up, but no matter how brilliant the light was, it did not hurt Eoroal's eyes. Rather the brilliance radiance seemed to sooth and invigorate him. When Qan'tel touched his arm Eoroal noticed that he too began to glow from within. Amazed Eoroal looked at the light now radiating from his hands and then noticed that his clothes were glowing as well.

“Reach down and pick up a rock El'Kiv'rai'ka,” said his teacher. And Eoroal then bent down and picked up the nearest rock, and to his complete astonishment, it too began to glow with a white light from within.
From On Mount Kan'ji


Oh, and to thought that a human-tau genetic mix to produce a Tau psyker, well in Seeds of Life series Prophet224's story A Shadow Over the Good, tackles that question. A good read all around.

TauMan
"Riding his spirit horse - his drum, the Shaman reached the other world, to reach the warrior's lost soul."

Mongolian Shaman Ceremony
Viro’los gu brath!
N.Y.A.B.X.T.T.

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Calmsword
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#21 » Aug 08 2017 12:41

So, is it POSSIBLE that a Tau could use warp powers?


I mean... Ultimately it's whatever you want, but... at least looking through the lens of the better fluff; no. And I don't consider the garbage that is Farsight's books to be anything near canonical since it can't even reference its own books correctly... but all anger aside.

Warp spells lead component is belief. Belief and intent have a true esoteric enabling to the power of the warp. Don't just look at the power provided by Chaos devotees but the Sisters of Battle or Imperial Saints.

You can't just pick up a book of spells and 'poof' you cast smite, what is more likely to happen is that the things inside the book will take over the casual reader and drive them insane.

For the Tau to even begin understanding the esoteric powers of the Warp they would have to fundamentally give up on the things they believe in; ie: the Greater Good. Since it is an indoctrinated belief system, there could be Tau that grow up without this; but then there is the biological aspect and that is simply: The Tau don't have much of a warp impression which means the entities that are necessary to form relationships with largely can't even see a Tau...

But that's why the Tau were created; to stand apart from the other species and factions of 40k and with so many people calling for more grim darkness; the Tau have kind of become a lame duck when it comes to their fluff and the explanations behind why they are the way they are...

The first type, the most common, is psyker powers. This is when an individual has a powerful connection to the warp and can directly channel warp energy using their mind (intentionally or not). Because tau have weak coonection to the warp (weak souls) the likelyhood of a tau ever having any amount of psyker potential is extremely remote. By some sources the tau brain also produces a chemical which actively deadens warp potential, so even if a tau was born with ANY psyker potential, their brain would completely negate it. This makes a tau psyker all but impossible.


I think it's important to also note that the species influenced by the Old Ones were modified to have psykers to specifically fight in the War in Heaven; that's why psykers exist as much as nulls exist by tampering by the Necrontyre/Necrons. Those species that were not modified by either side are incredibly unique in their evolution. The Tau could have developed 'anti' warp chemicals due to T'au's isolation during the Age of Apostasy's Warp storms.

The second type is warp sorcery. It is a bit more rare but very distinct from psyker powers. It involves casting warp spells much like you imagine a wizard from dungeons and dragons (waving your hands, saying magic words and then lightning!). Critically it can be used by anyone reguardless of warp potential. It only takes the knowledge of how to preform the spells and rituals in order to use them. Often this knowledge is taught by a demon in exchange for the soul of the student (which is why chaos sorcerors are common, and unlikely for a tau as their souls are so weak). However some tomes of magic do exsist which have all the information nessisary to cast spells.


Here's where I think you're deviating from fluff; Sorcery requires the ability to negotiate with warp entities; to do that you still need a relationship with the Warp which almost all sentient life does because (and this is 40k) thoughts are your brain influencing and being influenced by the warp (like dreams).

If a tau got a hold of one of these spell books and had the desire to learn its meaning, it is entirely possible they could use it. Since the powers don't emanate from the user but rather warp energy that has bleed into the universe itself ANY creature could do this, the tau are in no way excluded.


Again, you'd need to have the ability to properly communicate with the denizens of the warp; Tau can't.

Alternately a demon could be on a serious diet and make a deal with a tau to teach them sorcery for their ultra low calorie soul :biggrin:.


I mean.. sure, but that's not really how Daemons have shown to act. Remember that they are in 'hell'; they don't want to exist in the warp and when they come out all they want to do is figure out how to stay; that takes souls.
~Good Hunting

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Panzer
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#22 » Aug 08 2017 01:19

Seriously? You claim the Space Wolve Rune Priests as loophole? It's just what they believe they do because they need an explanation that's not related to psykers due them not liking psykers. They are still psykers though. :D

Also what Calmsword says. It's pretty much the same thing I said but maybe put in better words (especially the first half of his post).

Pottsey
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#23 » Aug 08 2017 03:57

Shas'O Bentu'nan wrote:So, is it POSSIBLE that a Tau could use warp powers?

I would argue, yes, it is. :eek:

Let me explain...

There are, broadly speeking, two forms of warp powers. For this exercise its important to understand the differences and how each relates to the tau.

Just last night I was reading one of the books and there is a Tau Sorcerer. The Water Caste Tau Por Malcaor also known as The Water Spider is a Tau who can use warp powers.

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Panzer
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#24 » Aug 08 2017 03:59

Pottsey wrote:
Shas'O Bentu'nan wrote:So, is it POSSIBLE that a Tau could use warp powers?

I would argue, yes, it is. :eek:

Let me explain...

There are, broadly speeking, two forms of warp powers. For this exercise its important to understand the differences and how each relates to the tau.

Just last night I was reading one of the books and there is a Tau Sorcerer. The Water Caste Tau Por Malcaor also known as The Water Spider is a Tau who can use warp powers.

That's quite a claim. What book did you read?

Pottsey
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#25 » Aug 08 2017 04:22

Panzer wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
Shas'O Bentu'nan wrote:So, is it POSSIBLE that a Tau could use warp powers?

I would argue, yes, it is. :eek:

Let me explain...

There are, broadly speeking, two forms of warp powers. For this exercise its important to understand the differences and how each relates to the tau.

Just last night I was reading one of the books and there is a Tau Sorcerer. The Water Caste Tau Por Malcaor also known as The Water Spider is a Tau who can use warp powers.

That's quite a claim. What book did you read?

The new one Farsight Crisis of Faith. http://www.blacklibrary.com/prod-home/n ... faith.html which I am only half way though. Farsight seems pretty resistance to the warp only getting a mild migraine, the book seems to follow the old Firewarrior game where most Tau have resistance but a few rare ones are a tiny bit more open.

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Panzer
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#26 » Aug 08 2017 04:29

Oh right that one...well I haven't heard anything good about it so far so I'd take anything from it with a grain of salt.

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khayman
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#27 » Aug 08 2017 04:46

Panzer wrote:Oh right that one...well I haven't heard anything good about it so far so I'd take anything from it with a grain of salt.


A book being good or bad has absolutely nothing to do with it being taken with a grain of salt. If a Tau psyker's there, whether one likes the book or not is completely irrelevant.

And it really does seem we have a Tau psyker. Water caste, too.

Pottsey
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#28 » Aug 08 2017 04:48

Panzer wrote:Oh right that one...well I haven't heard anything good about it so far so I'd take anything from it with a grain of salt.

I am enjoying it so far but it’s a mixed bag. Some chapters are very Tau like but there have been more than a few moments where I thought WTF. The Tau Sorcerer bit I am sort of ok with due to how it was done but there are other parts of the book that just seem very wrong.

EDIT: I can post how it came about but it’s a spoiler and wasn’t sure if that’s ok here.

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Panzer
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#29 » Aug 08 2017 04:52

khayman wrote:
Panzer wrote:Oh right that one...well I haven't heard anything good about it so far so I'd take anything from it with a grain of salt.


A book being good or bad has absolutely nothing to do with it being taken with a grain of salt. If a Tau psyker's there, whether one likes the book or not is completely irrelevant.

And it really does seem we have a Tau psyker. Water caste, too.

I disagree. If it's the only case where something like that got mentioned in the whole history of T'au and if it doesn't get mentioned afterwards again it's nothing more than an author being derpy. And it's Kelly we are talking about. He has proven more than once that he doesn't care much about the actual T'au lore.

Pottsey
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#30 » Aug 08 2017 05:09

Panzer wrote:
khayman wrote:
Panzer wrote:Oh right that one...well I haven't heard anything good about it so far so I'd take anything from it with a grain of salt.


A book being good or bad has absolutely nothing to do with it being taken with a grain of salt. If a Tau psyker's there, whether one likes the book or not is completely irrelevant.

And it really does seem we have a Tau psyker. Water caste, too.

I disagree. If it's the only case where something like that got mentioned in the whole history of T'au and if it doesn't get mentioned afterwards again it's nothing more than an author being derpy. And it's Kelly we are talking about. He has proven more than once that he doesn't care much about the actual T'au lore.

It’s not the first time. Kais had clear signs of being impacted by the Forces of Chaos. If I recall correctly even though he won out a chaos demon was mentally speaking/influencing him. In multiple story’s Farsight has experienced the same thing but always resisted with headaches as a side effect. To me it’s not too farfetched that water spider with a weaker mind could be influenced by chaos after direct warp exposure. As long as it stays a rare event then for me its ok that out of all the Tau some rare ones are different.
Last edited by Pottsey on Aug 08 2017 05:16, edited 1 time in total.

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khayman
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#31 » Aug 08 2017 05:15

Panzer wrote:
khayman wrote:
Panzer wrote:Oh right that one...well I haven't heard anything good about it so far so I'd take anything from it with a grain of salt.


A book being good or bad has absolutely nothing to do with it being taken with a grain of salt. If a Tau psyker's there, whether one likes the book or not is completely irrelevant.

And it really does seem we have a Tau psyker. Water caste, too.

I disagree. If it's the only case where something like that got mentioned in the whole history of T'au and if it doesn't get mentioned afterwards again it's nothing more than an author being derpy. And it's Kelly we are talking about. He has proven more than once that he doesn't care much about the actual T'au lore.


Well, you're obviously absolutely entitled to form your own foundation of knowledge about an issue. But that's private, to you, and only you, and does not transfer to any conversation with others on this topic. So, whether you consider an author to be derpy or not is, again, irrelevant when we're discussing established lore. If it's published by GW and has not been explicitly retconned, it's canon. Derpy or not.

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Panzer
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#32 » Aug 08 2017 05:28

khayman wrote:
Panzer wrote:
khayman wrote:
A book being good or bad has absolutely nothing to do with it being taken with a grain of salt. If a Tau psyker's there, whether one likes the book or not is completely irrelevant.

And it really does seem we have a Tau psyker. Water caste, too.

I disagree. If it's the only case where something like that got mentioned in the whole history of T'au and if it doesn't get mentioned afterwards again it's nothing more than an author being derpy. And it's Kelly we are talking about. He has proven more than once that he doesn't care much about the actual T'au lore.


Well, you're obviously absolutely entitled to form your own foundation of knowledge about an issue. But that's private, to you, and only you, and does not transfer to any conversation with others on this topic. So, whether you consider an author to be derpy or not is, again, irrelevant when we're discussing established lore. If it's published by GW and has not been explicitly retconned, it's canon. Derpy or not.

Uhm you didn't really get my point, but it's okay. This is not the right place to continue this kind of discussion.

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:
khayman wrote:
A book being good or bad has absolutely nothing to do with it being taken with a grain of salt. If a Tau psyker's there, whether one likes the book or not is completely irrelevant.

And it really does seem we have a Tau psyker. Water caste, too.

I disagree. If it's the only case where something like that got mentioned in the whole history of T'au and if it doesn't get mentioned afterwards again it's nothing more than an author being derpy. And it's Kelly we are talking about. He has proven more than once that he doesn't care much about the actual T'au lore.

It’s not the first time. Kais had clear signs of being impacted by the Forces of Chaos. If I recall correctly even though he won out a chaos demon was mentally speaking/influencing him. In multiple story’s Farsight has experienced the same thing but always resisted with headaches as a side effect. To me it’s not too farfetched that water spider with a weaker mind could be influenced by chaos after direct warp exposure. As long as it stays a rare event then for me its ok that out of all the Tau some rare ones are different.

That's something completely different though? Being influenced by Chaos is not definitely not the same as being a psyker.

Pottsey
Shas
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#33 » Aug 08 2017 06:04

Panzer wrote:
khayman wrote:
Panzer wrote:I disagree. If it's the only case where something like that got mentioned in the whole history of T'au and if it doesn't get mentioned afterwards again it's nothing more than an author being derpy. And it's Kelly we are talking about. He has proven more than once that he doesn't care much about the actual T'au lore.


Well, you're obviously absolutely entitled to form your own foundation of knowledge about an issue. But that's private, to you, and only you, and does not transfer to any conversation with others on this topic. So, whether you consider an author to be derpy or not is, again, irrelevant when we're discussing established lore. If it's published by GW and has not been explicitly retconned, it's canon. Derpy or not.

Uhm you didn't really get my point, but it's okay. This is not the right place to continue this kind of discussion.

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:I disagree. If it's the only case where something like that got mentioned in the whole history of T'au and if it doesn't get mentioned afterwards again it's nothing more than an author being derpy. And it's Kelly we are talking about. He has proven more than once that he doesn't care much about the actual T'au lore.

It’s not the first time. Kais had clear signs of being impacted by the Forces of Chaos. If I recall correctly even though he won out a chaos demon was mentally speaking/influencing him. In multiple story’s Farsight has experienced the same thing but always resisted with headaches as a side effect. To me it’s not too farfetched that water spider with a weaker mind could be influenced by chaos after direct warp exposure. As long as it stays a rare event then for me its ok that out of all the Tau some rare ones are different.

That's something completely different though? Being influenced by Chaos is not definitely not the same as being a psyker.

The way I see it is there are two types of Psykers natural ones and the one related to demonic possession/chaos. Demons speaking/influencing in the mind is the first stage of demonic possession which grants psyker powers. Farsight fully resisted (*), Kais struggle but just managed to resist at the last moment and Water Spider failed and over time manifested psyker powers due to demon possession.

* Did Faresight fully resist he did gain the ability to steal the soul/life essence of anything he kills and transfer that energy to himself extending his life. But its not clear if that’s some sort of super advanced tech from the Dawn Bade or psi powers related to looking into the warp.

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ArttesThePerishable
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#34 » Aug 09 2017 07:01

I can see it now:

A Tau Anthropologist specializing in the study of humans and their cults or even specializing in Space Wolves. Discovers a tome containing rituals and spells. "Golly Gee, what an insightful piece of religious text! I must study it to better understand their culture!"

Some years pass and he is presenting at a conference of fellow Earth/Water caste anthropologists:

"You see this particular culture of barbaric humans believe that you can shoot lighting out of your fingers if you do the following ritual." *Performs ritual in demonstration and accidentally blasts a colleague.* He is apprehended by authorities and detained until further notice. But as he sits in his holding cell, he hears whispers in his head: "You must continue your work. You cannot let them hinder science. You know what to do..."

------

Alright so I had that go the rogue Tau sorcerer direction, but I could totally see a Tau sorcerer happening on an academic level, and just never making it to the battlefield because it wouldn't be seen as a weapon, so much as a mystery of science.
Blood for the Blood God? No! Fire for my FireBlade!

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#35 » Aug 09 2017 07:05

Except that this example would only work if that particular T'au already had psychic abilities to begin with. ^^
Last edited by Panzer on Aug 09 2017 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Shas'O Bentu'nan
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Re: The Tau Sorcerer

Post#36 » Aug 09 2017 08:56

So some critical details from reading tons of 40k wikis.

Sorcery/magic does not nessisary derive from the chaos gods. It exsisted before them, it is part of the warp. Kinda like how enslavers are from the warp but not part of chaos. Often the knowledge of spells is unknown to mortals, but known to demonkind (particularly tzeench). So thats why mortals can make deals with demons for magical power, to learn what already exsists. As such some chaos sorcerors are not psykers.

Magic is also what the rune priests and other elementalists use. It is a form of warp sorcery that has been discovered and passed on by the rune priests. Remember that the warp predates the gods of chaos. Not all the warp IS chaos. Powers baised on ancient elemental truths still exsist and can be used by anyone who has the knowledge and patience to do so.

What about faith? So... faith is complicated and unclear in 40k... and really does not apply to the tau at all so it is kinda irrelevant to the possibility of a tau sorceror. But apparently the kind of powers the sisters of battle use is not psyker powers nor sorcery. It may be that there is enough belief in the universe (which is reflected in the warp) in the emperor of mankind that can change reality... or it could be the big E is the chaos god of order and faith powers are expreasions of Emps power... or any other theories... critically it is not related to sorcery in as much as it is a requirement to use it.

But yes, the idea a lone tau archelologist may find a rune priests tome or collection of tomes, study it, learn it, and then use it seems plausible. It is likely s/he may mess up a jesture and instead of shooting lightning mearly frys him/herself with it.
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