Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

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SniperTau
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Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#1 » Nov 11 2017 08:18

So, Por'faan. As an attempt to get some deep thought going around the orbital, I would like to do a series of questions and topics related to the Tau Empire, and anything within it. I've decided I'm going to put out a question or topic once a week, and us scholars and loremasters can have a good natter over them. Anyone is welcome to join in!
So..... onto the question.

I was wondering what all your takes are on what happens to humans absorbed into the empire? What happens to their culture as they mingle with tau society? What roles would they have in relation to the five Castes? There are essentially no references in any GW/BL book or codex I have read that addresses this. So, thoughts?

Tau'va,

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El ZorDacK
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#2 » Nov 11 2017 09:02

They get a dental plan!...Jokes aside, even then they are 2nd. class citizen, don't think they mix with the rest. maybe they are given their own colonies, and life quality sure rises. What about 2nd and 3rd. generation Gue'Vesa? maybe they get a better status, but look at the Kroots,they stay the same after all this time.

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Crom
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#3 » Nov 12 2017 12:24

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I swear there used to be rules floating around from GW about including Gue'vesa in your army.

I always thought the humans that did join the empire from conquered Imperial worlds would be confined to their planet of origin, unless they had some particular skill or ability that was of use for... Well, the greater good!

I like to think of converted PDF and imperial guard regiments helping police and protect worlds alongside the fire caste. Maybe over time the most trusted humans travel to other worlds with colonisation fleets alongside water caste to help talk down and convert others.

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Kakapo42
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#4 » Nov 12 2017 03:36

The traditional answer, from classic background lore, is that like other auxiliary species Gue'vessa are effectively considered their own caste and, like other auxiliary species, are largely left to their own devices. The Tau tend to prefer hands-off management of the auxiliaries and give the various aliens and subjects within their empire a very large degree of autonomy - as long as they pay their taxes, fight for the empire if called up and don't go around stirring up trouble, it's pretty much all good.

It is known that humans in the Tau Empire do retain a lot of their Imperial roots - Gue'vessa architecture and technology for example often incorporates Imperial designs, for example, and they are allowed to continue practice of the Imperial Creed. The key difference would likely be a greater level of what we would consider liberalisation within Gue'vessa society, with increased access to technology (and likely education) and improved living conditions producing more social equality and free time for Gue'vessa citizens. At the same time, Gue'vessa would naturally practice a much more moderate form of the Imperial Creed, likely with the stance towards alien lifeforms heavily altered or omitted altogether, and more emphasis on compassion and respect for fellow humans rather than 'Cleanse Purge Kill'.

In turn, Imperial authorities (who are entirely aware that Gue'vessa populations exist within the Tau Empire) and especially the Ecclesiarchy would be likely to turn the above picture on its head and paint Gue'vessa society as a festering pit of sin, and dperavity, where wicked cruel-hearted humans preach blasphemous and heretical mockeries of the true Word of The Emperor while indulging in all manner of unspeakable debauchery with no heed to the damage it causes their immortal souls, and a place which any and all faithful servants of the God-Emperor should shun and avoid at all cost. Don't listen to those illegal transmissions that come from the Galactic East, for they are a deception crafted by the Wolf to lure away the Emperor's flock. After all, is not the Xenos the avatar of all lies?

In other words, essentially how most extreme religious puritan societies depict neighbouring or well-known societies that practice a more liberal lifestyle. Examples can be found throughout history.

From what I gather newer background material tends to go for a much more explicit and grimdark view of Gue'vessa life, but brings with it many of the issues that plague more recent Tau background.
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Panzer
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#5 » Nov 12 2017 03:44

Well since the T'au usually let the joined races stay the way they are but also know that one needs to have a close eye on humans or some of them will stab your back one day I'd say they'll get some Water Caste supervisors that also teach them about the Greater Good and what it means to be part of the T'au Empire now, some Earth Caste engineers that add some QoL upgrades (that's the main reason to join the T'au Empire after all) and some Fire Caste veterans to have an eye on their military training without interfering too much (a big strength of the T'au Empire is that the races complement eachother and not forcing others to fight like the T'au) but with sharing his knowledge but also to check if there are any signs of rebelion in the military ranks and to judge whether they're fit to fight alongside a T'au Cadre.
Apart from that the majority of the humans that join the T'au Empire are probably left alone and get treated like you would treat any other foreign allied country.

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Shas'O Ora
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#6 » Nov 12 2017 07:04

"Space Marine Battles: Damocles" would be a book worth to read. Gives quite good insight in Tau society.
One of the four shortstories is only dealing with a Gue´vesa La'rua and Nagi.

In the book Gue'vesa are used as guards for a Water Caste Diplomat who is visiting imperial worlds. After the teamleader made a good job there, he was chosen to lead the first human pure fighting cadre.
Especially the conversations between the Gue'vesa and the diplomat he is guarding are showing that integration in the Tau Empire needs time. Tau expect humans to be fully integrated after the third generation.

There is even a former Inquisitor from the Damocless Crusade who serves the Tau for over 200 years and now is commander.

Before having conquered the whole planet Tau already built reception centres for future members of the Greater Good. After reception, people are transported to other planets to be re-educated.
Later Humans can choose to get operated their vocal chord to be able of better speaking Tau language.
It is also said that there is some kind of welfare and support for mothers and kids.

For the rest I am with Panzer, thinking that the former imperial worlds stay human worlds with some Tau administration and that the re-educated Gue'vesa will mainly work on this planets as garrison, in administration or whatever other job. Just like they lived before only with the improvements in quality of live and efficient Tau technology grants.

Having less Tau on a conquered planet and having Gue'vesa doing the job saves resources and it helps to let the humans think that they are free from repression and self-reliant.

Hope some of this is useful. :)

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K'Pokk
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#7 » Nov 12 2017 10:19

Just started reading the Damocles novel, and a few chapters in. It's a good read and I prefer it to all the space-marine centred stories. There is another novel called Tau Empire I've read which is all short stories and really fleshed out for me Tau thinking and some of the characters.

I have some non-GW miniatures sitting on my painting table right now (Pig Iron mimiatures) which I intend to theme as Gue'vesa. A couple of vehicles and about 30 infantry.

Someone mentioned Kroot. I've been taking them as an example of how auxiliary races are treated in the Tau Empire. Basically they fight as they've always have done with a scant addition of Tau tech.

The group I play with are open to non-official rules and ideas so I'm thinking along the lines of the infantry being armed with lasguns but wearing Tau armour 4+, or being armed with pulse carbines but only wearing 5+ imperial flak armour. Nothing too radical but just a dash of flavour.

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Beerson
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#8 » Nov 12 2017 10:32

The kroot shouldn't be taken as example of how tau empire treats their auxiliaries, as they concern themselves mercenaries serving in T'au army, and have their own unique culture, you could say extremely spartan one, that shy from technology or any luxuries and quality of life improvements, only researching and using the bare minimum

unfortunatelly we don't have better example (best being the Gue'vesa themselves) of how T'au treat the auxiliaries, as the only ones we got solid info about are kroot and vespid, both living in very different way then humans or T'au where the QoL can't really be increased much

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K'Pokk
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#9 » Nov 12 2017 10:43

Thing is, from a tabletop gaming point of view, if you just say Gue'vesa are imperial guard fighting for the Tau then no point converting or doing anything to Guard models/tanks. Or if you say they adopt all and every piece of Tau technology then you just have Tau rules but using Guard models.

Maybe this is why GW have never really expanded on the Gue'vesa idea since it first appeared in 5th Ed(?).

I'm painting some up because it's fluffy rather than competitive. Possibly you can just do what feels right. After all there are a lot of planets/cultures out there and the Tau might treat each human planet differently.

Maybe not all human worlds be imperial but might have already split away from Imperial control centuries ago and been forgotten, going their own way culturally and technologically.

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n1md4
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#10 » Nov 14 2017 12:23

Gue'vesa: Composite Word; Meaning; "Lowest Helper" or "Human Helpers" – It refers to any human indoctrinated into Tau society or was born as a generations under Tau control.


Would any Gue ever be considered for promotion? They're considered the lowest / human but would devoted submission to the Greater Good be honoured and praised.




Here's another thing - that I'm sure's been discussed - being human they'd certainly be susceptible to the corruption of Chaos. It would make sense then to keep them away, but is this something the T'au are aware of?
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Beerson
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#11 » Nov 14 2017 01:18

n1md4 wrote:Would any Gue ever be considered for promotion? They're considered the lowest / human but would devoted submission to the Greater Good be honoured and praised.

humans have same chance to get promoted as T'au, it only depends on how good they are in their job and how much they contribute to the greater good
n1md4 wrote:Here's another thing - that I'm sure's been discussed - being human they'd certainly be susceptible to the corruption of Chaos. It would make sense then to keep them away, but is this something the T'au are aware of?

there isn't really much about that in the lore afaik except that T'au will not accept human psykers, but etherals have psyker advisors so I would say they know about dangers of warp in some way

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Panzer
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#12 » Nov 14 2017 02:28

T'au are aware of humans being prone to rebel and do know about chaos in one way or another. That's why they don't trust Gue'vesa all that quickly and would constantly keep an eye on them to intervene if needed.
And if not for Chaos, they do know about Genestealer Cults which is basically the same situation for T'au. ;)

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Beerson
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#13 » Nov 14 2017 02:57

Panzer wrote:And if not for Chaos, they do know about Genestealer Cults which is basically the same situation for T'au. ;)

is there any lore around genestealer cults and T'au? I wasn't aware of that and if so, would love to read it

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Panzer
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#14 » Nov 14 2017 03:15

Beerson wrote:
Panzer wrote:And if not for Chaos, they do know about Genestealer Cults which is basically the same situation for T'au. ;)

is there any lore around genestealer cults and T'au? I wasn't aware of that and if so, would love to read it

Only little. They caught one Genestealer to experiment on him but eventually they didn't hear anything from that colony anymore or something along those lines.
And iirc they used Genestealer to lure Tyranids to a planet after figuring out that the Tyranids are never far away when a Genestealer Cult appears.

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Val'Sitsor
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#15 » Nov 14 2017 04:09

Beerson wrote:
Panzer wrote:And if not for Chaos, they do know about Genestealer Cults which is basically the same situation for T'au. ;)

is there any lore around genestealer cults and T'au? I wasn't aware of that and if so, would love to read it


Resent short-story "The Greater Evil" by Peter Fehervari is pretty much about it. It also has several insight on gue'vesa and their relationship with tau

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SinisterSamurai
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#16 » Nov 14 2017 04:15

Crom wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I swear there used to be rules floating around from GW about including Gue'vesa in your army.

Imperial Armour 3 introduced three human units for use in 40k: Mining Work Gangs, Gue'vesa Auxiliary, and a Governor. The governor was little more than a statline, intended to be a mobile objective for one scenario, and the Gue'vesa and Work Gang were also technically only allowed to be used in Taros Scenarios. Because of that, and the fact that the Auxiliary suffered massive penalties to fighting imperial armies, they weren't widely used in open play.
IA3 also included rules for Gue'vesa auxiliary forces to be used in 40k Epic.

Only the Governor and the Auxiliary got updated in IA3.2, but they had the all same limitations as their previous iteration, and were only situationally preferable to basic fire warriors. Again, they were never technically legal outside of Taros campaign, and so the datasheet saw relatively little table time.

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nic
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Re: Weekly Discussion #1: What happens to Gue'vesa once they join the Tau?

Post#17 » Nov 14 2017 04:29

Panzer wrote:
Beerson wrote:
Panzer wrote:And if not for Chaos, they do know about Genestealer Cults which is basically the same situation for T'au. ;)

is there any lore around genestealer cults and T'au? I wasn't aware of that and if so, would love to read it

Only little. They caught one Genestealer to experiment on him but eventually they didn't hear anything from that colony anymore or something along those lines.
And iirc they used Genestealer to lure Tyranids to a planet after figuring out that the Tyranids are never far away when a Genestealer Cult appears.


There is more, recent too.

Spoiler!
The new short story The Greater Evil has both Tau Water Caste and a Gue'vesa who have been 'got at' by Genestealer infestation.

T'au are clearly vulnerable to Genestealers. Humans obviously so. Still not sure about Kroot, they only make a cameo appearance in the short story and appear to regard even dead cultists as evil meat.


So The Greater Evil has a few more snippets about the treatment of Gue'vesa in the Empire as a unit of human troops are quite prominent in it. It suggests that opinions about Gue'vesa are somewhat divided even among the Ethereal caste. I think that in turn should suggest that there is no single answer to what happens to Gue'vesa or how they are treated - the Empire is big and their reception and treatment in one instance may differ from another.

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