[Kiten’s Cadre] Fire Record - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Battles and discussion of tactics from the earliest days of our Academy.
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[Kiten’s Cadre] Fire Record - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#1 » Sep 10 2010 12:44

75T2: Operation Pliers Battle 2 – VS Imperial Guard


The fourth battle fought by this list is finally its first against a different army (which also happens to be my favorite army to face). Here’s a quick rundown of the list:

Commander Shadowsun

XV8 Crisis Mesme Team: 2 Fireknife
XV8 Crisis Mesme Team: 2 Fireknife
XV8 Crisis Mesme Team: 1 Deathrain, 1 Shas’Vre with AFP

Fire Warrior Team: 9 Fire Warriors
Fire Warrior Team: 6 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines on a Dumbfish with Sensor Spines
Kroot Carnivores Kindred: 10 Kroot and 5 Kroot Hounds
Kroot Carnivores Kindred: 10 Kroot and 5 Kroot Hounds

Pathfinder Team: 6 Pathfinders on a Warfish

Sky Ray Defence Gunship, Warray with Blacksun Filter
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit: 2 ASS suits, one team leader with Bonding Knife and 2 Shield Drones
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit: 2 ASS suits, one team leader with Bonding Knife and 2 Shield Drones


As you may have noticed, I decided to equip the mounted Fire Warrior Team with Pulse Carbines, as I really wanted to test out this team configuration in a larger point range game after the last 3-Way battle I fought in.

Opposing Army


Company Command Squad with Astropath on Chimera Armoured Transport

Infantry Platoon 1:
Platoon Command Squad with Vox Caster, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Infantry Squad with Vox Caster, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Infantry Squad with Sergeant with Melta Bombs
Heavy Weapons Squad with 2 Autocannons and 1 Lascannon
Infantry Platoon 2: same as Infantry Platoon 1
Demolitions Veteran Squad with Shotguns and 2 Meltaguns
Demolitions Veteran Squad with Shotguns and 2 Meltaguns

Vendetta Gunship with 1 Twin-Linked Lascannon and 2 Hellfury Missiles
Vendetta Gunship with 1 Twin-Linked Lascannon and 2 Hellfury Missiles

Leman Russ Squadron composed of 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks
Ordnance Battery composed of 2 Griffons and 1 Medusa


Field

Image

The very first thing I noticed was that much like the precedent battle, this map had something obscuring a table quarter. This was bad news: even though there was a gap from which I could fire at the units hiding on the other side of the hill, if deployment was to be Spearhead I would’ve been in deep trouble. To make things worse, said gap was small and the opponent could easily hide in the cover of the large forest nearby, not to mention the possibilities offered by the Imperial Guard of sealing the passage completely with the aid of Leman Russes and, worst still, the inherent ability of their artillery batteries to fire without line of sight. Fortunately this particular list wasn’t the artillery heaviest around.
The rest of the table had another large forest and an enormous precipice right next to the pesky hill, some more trees on the middle-left, and another hill near the long upper table edge.
All in all, as dire as it was looking, and despite how similar it was to the last map I fought on, this game was looking like it could’ve become something really interesting to play. It all rested in the hands of a couple of cuboids, really.

Mission

Capture and Control with Dawn of War deployment, and the Tau going second.
Now this was interesting. I expected the enemy to place some units in a mid-forward position in order to both get closer to my objective and let me have as little cover available as possible, but depending on what they did I could have ended up actually fielding something- mostly because he could not fire anything in the first turn, thanks to the Night Fight rules.
But it wasn’t the deployment phase that actually interested me- it was where he would place his objective.

Deployment

He decided to place his objective inside the forest in the south/east corner, almost on the left side of the area terrain (I marked it with a skull).
This meant several things: firstly, I had the chance of conducting an advance from the right passage, were he not to close the gap with some heavy armor, and supporting it with outflanking Kroot Kindreds that could help clearing the forest even before the main forces arrived were they to pop out early. To do this I had to force the enemy forces to advance on a completely different front, in order to thin the amount of forces I had to cut off; which also leads to the second main point of the tactical situation, which was the hill on my table side: these high grounds would’ve been key in fending off enemy assaults, and could eventually give some covering fire on the attack force if the opponent opted to ambush it with his Vendettas in any way.
Enjoying the sound of this plan, I placed my objective –literally- in the north/west corner of the map, which meant no cover for whoever wanted to control it, forced the opponent to commit his forces on a difficult march in a large no-man’s land and gave my Kindreds a back-up plan were they not meant to come out on the right side.
The actual deployment saw a couple of 20-man Guardsmen Blobs entering the field, one hiding behind the central hill and the other close to the mid-left forest, though not as close as possible. The two Vendettas are declared in reserve with a Veteran Filling each, and coming from the flank.
I didn’t deploy anything, as I didn’t want to give him any hint of where I would pop up with both my attack force and big guns. I also reserved the static Fire Warrior Team, sent both Kroot Kindreds in outflank, and finally had my Deathrains come in Deepstrike- the reasoning behind it being that their weaponry could have helped more by dislodging (and hopefully pinning) Guardsmen in cover, or by taking a shot at the rear armor of a Leman Russ.

I luckily failed to seize the initiative though it was close with a roll of 5!, and the game started.

Imperial Guard Turn 1

He walks in his forces with very little eye to defense, which is golden for me.
Starting from the left, we have the Leman Russ Squadron, the Ordnance Battery, a Platoon Command Squad closely following the first [Green] Blob, both Heavy Weapons Squads and the Command Chimera in the center and the other Platoon Command Squad next to their [Azure] Blob. I grin, foreseeing lots of Railgun shots being dumped on the enemy artillery, and a good deal of effective fire support for the advancing armored contingent starting first turn thanks to the SMS.

Tau Turn 1

I have my Broadsides take place on the hill, the Skyray take place on the left side (right from my prospective) of the big forest with the first team of Fireknifes on its side, Shadowsun more or less on its back, and the two Devilfish next to each other, the Pathfinder’s protecting the Fire Warriors’ advancing in the trees, while the other team of Fireknifes lurks around them. I now realize the difference in model count and army volume. Holy crap I feel like a tiny ant for a second there.
The plan is to advance the two Fishes and keep the Battlesuits nearby, in order to counter the likely surprise attack from the Vendettas, and to bring overwhelming firepower on the scarcely defended enemy outpost.
In shooting the SMS operate at top-notch efficiency, the weapon systems from the Skyray and the Pathfinder's Warfish bringing down the full potential 8 Guardsmen from the Azure Blob; and just as awesomely, the Skyray’s markerlight systems succeed in finding one of the Heavy Weapons Squads (which was 35’ away! Go Blacksun Filter!), which allows one of the Broadside Teams to open up on them, bringing down only one but breaking them. A very good start.

Image

Imperial Guard Turn 2

The broken Heavy Weapons Squad doesn’t rally, and walks out of the table. To replace it, one Vendetta Gunship comes from reserves, striking from the right side of the board.
Everything but the Azure Blob and the remaining Heavy Weapons Squad advances and repositions itself in order to secure better firing lanes, and the Vendetta unloads its cargo next to the Pathfinder’s Devilfish while staring at Shadowsun.
Shooting from the left side of the board sees little effect: the Ordnance Battery can only fire with the Medusa, since it repositioned, and the lone shot scatters off from the board while trying to pieplate the Broadsides; the Leman Russes fail to wound the Fireknifes next to the Skyray thanks to their positioning which gave them cover; and the Heavy Weapons Team fails to penetrate the sturdy front armor of said vehicle. The only wound comes from the Chimera’s Multi-laser at the expenses of the XV8s who survived the Battle Cannon’s shells.
Over at the top right corner, the Veterans successfully explode the Warfish, inflicting two casualties on the Pathfinders, who pass their pinning check but run away regardless, and three on themselves. The Vendetta inflicts three wounds on Shadowsun, who loses two Shield Drones and one wound herself.

Image

Tau Turn 2

Both Kroot Kindreds decide to join the battle, one coming from the right, and the other from wherever I want. I opt to send these willing Kroots to the left side, in order to sabotage the enemy advance.
I move the Fire Warriors’ Devilfish the full 12’’ forward, not forgetting their main objective in this operation, while the [Lemon] Kroot secure the forest next to the enemy objective. Meanwhile, the XV8s and the Tau’s commander move to meet the Veterans and their transport, the Skyray backtracking just a little in order to support them. I forgot to change the movement counter of the vehicle from this point onwards, though it really doesn’t matter.
Shooting goes well. The Veterans get annihilated, though their transport only loses its Lascannon.
The Ordnance Battery gets targeted by all four Railguns and a couple of Seeker Missiles in that order, bringing an end to one of the Griffons and to the Medusa, the surviving vehicle being shaken.
The true golden cup, though, goes to the [Green] Kroot: they assault the Leman Russ Squadron, shaking one twice and outright wrecking the other (thanks to an Immobilized result and to the Vehicle Squadrons rules), successfully accomplishing their suicide mission with a big bonus. My Kroot, too, ate a Leman Russ today!
Assault jumps see the Fireknife Teams advancing towards the enemy objective while keeping one of their members inside the forest, in order to gain whatever protection they can, fearing the incursion of the other Vendetta.

Image

Imperial Guard Turn 3

The other Vendetta showed up, again coming in from the right.
The remaining Leman Russ attempted a Tank Shock on the Green Kroot, who end up holding, moving at maximum speed (he actually rolled a 6 on the movement’s roll), and together with the remaining Griffon popped smoke; meanwhile, the Chimera repositioned itself on the hill, and the Green Blob got ready to rapid fire to death the nearby Kroots.
Some impressing and average-ignoring rolling on both sides spells doom for the Green Kroot, who lose 6 of their numbers before breaking and running right to the Guardsmen who shot them. 51 shots causing 16 wounds, and 10 passed 4+ saves. The end result is what one would expect, but still.
On the right side, the Veterans fail to do any damage to the Devilfish, which also avoids the Chimera’s Multi-laser shots with it’s with its Disruption Pods. Two Meltagun whiffs and two 4+ cover saves passed.
Shadowsun shrugs off the handful of wounds inflicted by the Vendetta this time.
The Lemon Kroot lose only two members from the Guardsmen’ shooting and the Vendetta’s Hellfury barrage, thanks to good positioning (read: full distanced coherency), scattering (as only one missile actually hit something), and 3+ cover save (which shielded me from the Guardsmen's shooting). Should I keep underlining how lucky I got during this turn?

Image

Tau Turn 3

The last two reserves show up; the Fire Warriors attempting a suicidal Objective Grab (which, aside from being the only useful thing they could do, actually gives the opponent something else he needs to shoot at), and the Deathrains deep striking close to the Green Blob, reinforcing the blockade.
The Broadsides move a little, the Skyray goes a little forward, Shadowsun finally gets in melta range of the first Vendetta, the XV8s move again forward, and the Devilfish advances after having its drones get off the sides.
O’Shaserra scores her first vehicle kill as commander of the Pliers, while the meltagunner sees his transport immobilized and shaken, and their colleagues slaughtered. He runs away, his Democharge at the ready.
The Broadsides open up on the last pieplate-toting vehicles, successfully taking off the Battle Cannon on the ‘Russ and exploding the Griffon despite their cover. The Skyray launches another Seeker, targeting the Heavy Weapons Team, and getting the kill.
Finally, the Deathrains open up on the Green Blob, killing only two and failing the attempt of pinning them.
Assault moves see Shadowsun starting to go back in an attempt to support the Fire Warriors, and the Fireknifes continuing their advance.

Image

Imperial Guard Turn 4

The Azure Blob and their Command Squad start advancing on the forest, shooting in Rapid Fire range and getting a free order thanks to a roll of snake eyes; though their attempt is negated by the 2+ cover save the Kroot obtained by going to ground, meaning they only suffer two casualties. The drones get shot down, and the running away Veteran’s Democharge fails to do anything.
Meanwhile, the Green Blob experiences another absurd dice rolling, and inflicts one wound on the Shas’ui of the Deathrain team. 38 shots at 4+/5+ inflicting 13 wounds, and only one missed 3+ save. Do the math.

Image

Tau Turn 4

The advance continues, the Devilfish moving only 6’’ so it can start using its Burst Cannon, and the Deathrains get closer to the Green Blob while Shadowsun keeps running towards the Fire Warriors.
Combined fire from the Fireknifes, the Dumbfish, and the Skyray’s SMS reduce the Azure Blob to three members, who then get charged by the XV8s. The ensuing combat results in a boring draw with no casualties.
The Vendetta gets shaken again and then loses both its Heavy Bolters between the Shooting and the Assault phases, and the Chimera loses its Heavy Bolter as well thanks to a Railgun shot. The other Broadside Team fails to do anything to the Leman Russ, however.
The Skyray launches another Seeker Missile at the expenses of the Heavy Weapons Team.
While the injured Shas’ui cooks up a couple more Guardsmen from the Green Blob, the Shas’Vre sees his shot scatter onto the heads of the Platoon Command Squad nearby, leaving only a pinned up Sergeant behind. Just wow.

Image

Imperial Guard Turn 5

It is only after I conceded the turn that I remembered about the Deathrains’ assault move; such is the reason for them being charged while standing so close to the forest, and how the Green Blob consolidated back into it after they killed them off. Though they did so after winning with 1 wound to 0, but let’s pretend we don’t know about that.
The Fire Warriors are forced to go to ground after they lost two of their members from the remaining Autocannon’s fire thanks to the Fire on my Target! order when the Leman Russ inflicts 3 more wounds on them, failing all of the saves, but staying in place thanks to Shadowsun’s nearby presence.
The Platoon Command Squad inflicts one more casualty on the Lemon Kindred while their commanded squad gets punched in the face by the Fireknifes, and the Vendetta doesn’t get penetrated in melee. Did I just type something very bad?

Tau Turn 5

Mop-up work: the Broadsides finally explode the Chimera, and the Company Command Squad gets slaughtered by the resulting flames and from another top-notch shot from the Skyray’s SMS, though the Seeker launched at the lone Sergeant on the left whiffs.
On the right, the remaining Vendetta finally leaves this world, and the Fire Warriors get off their transport in order to score some kills today. Together with their Devilfish’ Burst Cannon they succeed in taking care of the remaining Platoon Command Squad.
The Fireknifes are free to take care of the lone Autocannon.

Image

The game would continue, but the opponent concedes. Tau victory.

Post-Game Thoughts

Well, the plan worked, and luck was most definitely on my side. I’m not sure of what would’ve happened on the right side if things didn’t go so wrong for the Guard player during turn 3, but I’m pretty sure I would’ve successfully kept my Kroot in that forest for that turn- I don’t even think I would’ve needed to face a panic test, as I would’ve simply put them to ground a turn earlier if I were to take too many casualties, and the way I positioned them really got them a lot less scared of the cover-ignoring pieplates.
Talking about luck, I’ve seen the most outrageous dice rolling of the last two months taking place during this match. It really helped the mood, and remembered me one of the reasons I love this game.
Luck or not, however, it was a little careless of the Guard player not to guard its objective.
I was also kinda perplexed at how he played his Ordnance. It’s true that his artillery wouldn’t have performed the best if hidden as its biggest gun could fire only directly, but it could’ve been easily solved by having just the Medusa on the central hill- which could’ve then shot the whole board while having the whole battery benefit of a cover save.
Lastly, I'm also seriously wondering what would've happened if he were to deploy in the upper side of the board.

Honorable Units

1. Broadsides
Ruthless bringers of destruction, they started literally blastin’ the enemy to pieces from the very first turn.
2. Skyray
Kept shooting all the time thanks to its armor and consistent cover save, giving me key fire support with its weapon system. Plus it allowed the Broadsides to shoot during the first turn, and kept giving the enemy headaches thanks to its Seeker Missiles which whiffed only once out of five.
3. Fireknifes
Gave superb covering fire to the advancing Fire Warriors, though they did have some trouble in taking off enemy aircraft. Regardless, they gave me overwhelming firepower against the little defenses their convoy met.

Bonus: Kroot
Brought chaos to the enemy lines, helped me secure an objective, and generally kept being awesome all the time. And as a bonus killed off a 150 points tank.


Discussion Topics

I’ve decided not to take anymore, actually, as it seems I’ve been scaring people off with these.
I’ll take this section’s emptiness to share with you a question I couldn’t answer at the time of play, and am yet to investigate: can troops that are out of unit coherency hold an objective? Not that it would’ve changed much during this game, really, but the doubt came to me when I said something along those lines and people asked me if I was sure.
Also, I’m glad you like these battle reports of mine Kern. Here’s one more for you!

Next up, 75T2 against Necrons.

EDIT: clarified some vague points in the battle report.
Last edited by Kiten on Sep 15 2010 11:32, edited 4 times in total.
[Kiten's Cadre] Project Log and War Council

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Peregrine
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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] War Council - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#2 » Sep 10 2010 11:14

TBH, you got kind of lucky here. A few critical mistakes your opponent made:


1) Hellfury missiles ignore cover saves. In fact, it's the whole point of taking them. Your Kroot should have died horribly, not survived with a 3+ cover save.

2) Squadroning the Medusa with the Griffons makes no sense at all. He's got a spare heavy support slot, so what exactly was he trying to accomplish here? The two guns have completely different target types, so this is really a waste of firepower. It's just insult to injury that his Griffons didn't even get to shoot, imagine the difference if he'd brought a second Medusa (or LR Demolisher) instead.

3) Only two special weapons on his veteran squads. The whole point of taking veterans is to spam BS 4 special weapons, taking them with only two makes no sense.

4) Taking off the 3x lascannons from the Vendettas is kind of questionable. I can see the value in hellfuries (though I prefer to take mine on Vultures), but you would've had a very different game with 6x TL lascannons putting instant death wounds on your Broadsides.



As for your own side, I disagree with your MVP award to the Sky Ray: your Sky Ray was utterly worthless. Everything it did could have been done by a Hammerhead, and far more effectively (why kill one heavy weapon team when you can instant-death pieplate the whole squad?).

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TheAmbit
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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] War Council - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#3 » Sep 10 2010 11:41

I think you took 4 too many shots with your Skyray's SMS on turn 1. No way you can kill 8 guardsman with a 4 shot weapon. The upgrade is an SMS 'system' and does not get to use its profile twice as you did not (and can not) take two of them. This confusion arises from the two burst cannons you can take giving you double the shots in the profile. Just because the SMS has two 'missile pods' doesn't mean it's two weapons.

O'Shavah
Shas
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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] War Council - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#4 » Sep 11 2010 06:40

I think it was the two warfish who managed the kills (but I might be wrong).

If so, I'm sorry. That's how I read it after a long day. No clarification required; I was just curious. It makes much more sense your way! - TheAmbit

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Kiten
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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] War Council - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#5 » Sep 11 2010 02:17

Peregrine wrote:TBH, you got kind of lucky here. A few critical mistakes your opponent made:


1) Hellfury missiles ignore cover saves. In fact, it's the whole point of taking them. Your Kroot should have died horribly, not survived with a 3+ cover save.

2) Squadroning the Medusa with the Griffons makes no sense at all. He's got a spare heavy support slot, so what exactly was he trying to accomplish here? The two guns have completely different target types, so this is really a waste of firepower. It's just insult to injury that his Griffons didn't even get to shoot, imagine the difference if he'd brought a second Medusa (or LR Demolisher) instead.

3) Only two special weapons on his veteran squads. The whole point of taking veterans is to spam BS 4 special weapons, taking them with only two makes no sense.

4) Taking off the 3x lascannons from the Vendettas is kind of questionable. I can see the value in hellfuries (though I prefer to take mine on Vultures), but you would've had a very different game with 6x TL lascannons putting instant death wounds on your Broadsides.



As for your own side, I disagree with your MVP award to the Sky Ray: your Sky Ray was utterly worthless. Everything it did could have been done by a Hammerhead, and far more effectively (why kill one heavy weapon team when you can instant-death pieplate the whole squad?).


Good points, Peregrine, as I'd expect you to. [I've been reading these forums for a while now, and have been enjoying your sharp and spot-on replies.]
If you don't mind, I'd like to answer back at you:

1. Actually, the only two casualties came from just that; but both shots scattered, and only one of those actually got some Kroot- wounding and killing 2. The infantry squads, on the other hand, didn't get their First rank FIRE!, Second rank FIRE! order off, and only inflicted three wounds; as I didn't think I would be troubled by those I didn't go to ground, and actually passed all three resulting 3+ cover saves.
Yeah, that episode was a collection of more lucky rolls for me and unlucky rolls for the poor guy- I probably would've needed to make it clearer in the actual battle report.

2. My thoughts exactly. I didn't get to talk to him about his list yet, as we rushed back home after the game was over (it was almost 1:00 AM at the time), and didn't get to talk to him on the following day.
What I think he intended to do by doing that was give the big gun ablative wounds- though I really wish he didn't think of it as that, as 150 points are quite a lot if seen under that sense.

3. Again, I think the same. I could only guess it was an attempt at saving some points somewhere- then again I see one Meltabomb being assigned to one Sergeant every two Infantry Squads, and start raising an eyebrow. And let's not get back to discussing the ablative wounds thing.

4. As you say, Hellfury Missiles do look like they have a value; but them being only one-shot I can't really say I'd take them over two Twin Linked Lascannons. Guard can find better pieplates elsewhere in their codex, which includes other weapons capable of ignoring cover completely.

5. I feel this point to be both truth and false.
It is true because it is undeniable how effective the Submunitions are against light to medium infantry; and how effectively they could get rid of Heavy Weapons Teams as well as Guardsmen Blobs, at that.
It is false because the Skyray, though I didn't point it out as I could have, didn't just kill those two Heavy Weapons and some Guardsmen in the beginning: it also got two penetrating hits in one turn, allowed the Broadsides to fire during the first turn (though admittedly the target wasn't one of the juicest around in this particular game, and that effect is highly situational), and killed off an average of two Guardsmen every turn by directing its SMS in order to support the units advancing on the right side.
So it is more than arguable that the Skyray's achievements could have been achieved by an Hammerhead just as well, but said vehicle costs more than this Skyray configuration when fielded with SMS and Target Lock systems (not by much, I know); and it actively stops firing its main gun after one Weapon Destroyed result, and doesn't have the chance to support the rest of the army with a couple of Markerlight systems (which is actually the main reason why I take the vehicle if and whenever I actually include it in a list, by the way).
Then again, the Skyray is not actually cheap itself for its intended role.
Could I ask you to make sure you answer to at least this point back, and to take a look at the list's topic? It is of great interest for me to hear your opinions over this choice.

Theambit wrote:I think you took 4 too many shots with your Skyray's SMS on turn 1. No way you can kill 8 guardsman with a 4 shot weapon. The upgrade is an SMS 'system' and does not get to use its profile twice as you did not (and can not) take two of them. This confusion arises from the two burst cannons you can take giving you double the shots in the profile. Just because the SMS has two 'missile pods' doesn't mean it's two weapons.

Actually, O'Shavah is right in his assumption, and I fail at typing.
I'll really need to edit that part, as it is obviously confusing, by specifying it was not only the Skyray's SMS that scored 4 kills out of 4 shots. I guess I'll take the chance to make out some more clarifications while I'm at it.
I'm sorry for the confusion, I'll try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
[Kiten's Cadre] Project Log and War Council

tehlegend
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Shas'Ui
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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] Fire Record - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#6 » Sep 12 2010 03:03

To be honest, I'm sort of an aficionado of the sky ray. Sure it doesn't have the raw destructive shot output of the broadsides, or the versatility of a rail gun toting hammerhead, but when you think about why you're getting it, neither of those roles should be coming to mind anyways. Its a durable support vehicle, and it's effectiveness remains pretty constant even if it suffers a weapon destroyed result or two. Those two markerlights with the targeting array is one of the rare ways in a tau army to get 3+ markerlights, which is a godsend. You're getting it on a vehicle, which is far more mobile and survivable than a stealth team or pathfinder squad, and you get just about all the benefits of a devilfish along with it (mobile cover, disruption pod, etc). Sure you sacrifice a railgun or 3, but even against armies that are all mechanized, I still find 4-6 rail guns sufficient with good placement and maybe fusion blaster support. that rack of seekers doesnt hurt either, they kill most threats very reliably (though i have to admit, 1's get rolled more often than they should for some reason). Its not the most powerful in terms of raw shot and power output, but honestly, its all about synergy. Railguns don't get priority over army synergy.

All in all, I think the broadsides with skyray is actually a fairly effective list, though it is running a bit slow, so you'll be suffering at the hands of blood angels and other super fast armies if you're not careful.

I think having only 1 squad of pathfinders is actually hurting you, especially since you seem to be running a devilfish in the troops slots. I noticed you like to have it rush in later in the game with fire warriors to get an objective grab, but if you run 2 minimum pathfinder squads and keep the devilfish floating near your back base, you can have 2 pathfinder squads targeting 2 enemy squads, and you're not spending that many more points. Not to mention you're not putting them all in 1 basket with the current configuration. When your fire warriors come in from reserve, they simply hop straight into the devilfish and you gun it forward as you normally would. Plus, it doesn't hurt to have a free backup marker beacon just in case.

Overall, I think you'd get far more tactical flexibility that way, which seems to fit you like a glove given what I've read in these battle reports.

Now for Shadowsun... I both love and hate her. She's a shot magnet for anyone that knows what she's capable of doing to armor, and that stealth field she has can ruin any shooting army's day, but getting her to the high priority target is a righteous pain in the ass. For the points I'm paying for her, I don't want her sitting back with the broadsides keeping everyone in check for leadership rolls, thats what Ethereals are for. Considering what she did here, I really think you'd be better off attaching an ethereal to one of your broadside squads with extra shield drones (it works REALLY well actually, 4 shield drones on a fearless broadside squad takes forever to bring down, so surrounding your ethereal with 2+ armor keeps him pretty safe), and using the extra points elsewhere...

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Kiten
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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] Fire Record - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#7 » Sep 12 2010 05:38

That's another set of really interesting replies, tehlegend. Thank you.
Let me get back at you:

tehlegend wrote:To be honest, I'm sort of an aficionado of the sky ray. [...] Its not the most powerful in terms of raw shot and power output, but honestly, its all about synergy. Railguns don't get priority over army synergy.

All in all, I think the broadsides with skyray is actually a fairly effective list, though it is running a bit slow, so you'll be suffering at the hands of blood angels and other super fast armies if you're not careful.

Nice to see another Skyray lover lurking around here in ATT- I'll tell you, most of my regular opponents are often caught snarling at my Skyrays "because they're SO annoying" :D
And the reason they find it annoying is just because of that: synergy.
About your warning, I now really want to face such an army*. I'll have to arrange it with the Marine regular, or find somebody else willing to play with the Emperor's Finest (which could prove to be pretty difficult, as all of my gaming group bar the regular outright hate the Mareensh). Hopefully it will be the game following the Necron's, though it will most likely be against Eldars.

tehlegend wrote:I think having only 1 squad of pathfinders is actually hurting you, [...]
Overall, I think you'd get far more tactical flexibility that way, which seems to fit you like a glove given what I've read in these battle reports.

Intriguing point.
Running more than one Pathfinder Team may actually suit me pretty well as a "me-list" actually; I remember doing so once, too, though I can't really recall any of the results.
This list will not change yet, though, as the whole point for putting it together and document its battles with the community was to field test it extensively in order to bring forth what's working and what is not and, subsequently, gather material for new discussion topics and/or the next list to be put under analysis.
This suggestion will most likely be one I seriously consider for both goals. Mostly for the double Pathfinder Team than for the extra Beacon, actually, but for a good reason regardless.

tehlegend wrote:Now for Shadowsun... [...] For the points I'm paying for her, I don't want her sitting back with the broadsides keeping everyone in check for leadership rolls, thats what Ethereals are for. [...] I really think you'd be better off attaching an ethereal to one of your broadside squads with extra shield drones (it works REALLY well actually, 4 shield drones on a fearless broadside squad takes forever to bring down, so surrounding your ethereal with 2+ armor keeps him pretty safe), and using the extra points elsewhere...

Mhhm. You see, buying an Ethereal is actually paying at least 100 points plus the mandatory commander's equipment, if you're going after a Shas'El. Giving the Aun a couple of Shield Drones means another 30 points, bringing the point cost really close to that of Shadowsun's.
What do you get with this deal? A suit with a better statline and a "1+ Commander" taped on it, which is actually not THAT impressive, and a fire magnet which needs to be protected at all costs, as it gives you a really big bonus while it's alive and a big malus if you were to lose it.
This doesn't really convince me, I'll tell you. Is it better than a not-so targettable unit which gives off a 'Discipline Bubble', totes a unique defensive weapon configuration, and does not risk crippling the entire army if it were to die? I'm not sure, but that's also because I don't really know Shadowsun all that well. In the 50+** games I've played so far I've never fielded her until the very last 4 1750 battles, which have been played using this particular list; and I gotta say that in all 4 of them I may have needed to take 5 or 6 leadership tests, not really letting her stand to the main reason why I bought her (helping me out with Leadership issues).
I will eventually end up playing an Ethereal regardless, though; until then, I won't really know how to get back at you on this one.

*: yes, I do like challenges.
**: that's an estimation, though it is backed up by the number of lists I have saved on my computer. And yes, that's not a lot, but hey- I've only been in the hobby for a year now, so that's to be expected. I hope you don't have any problems with that.
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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] Fire Record - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#8 » Sep 12 2010 11:06

To be honest, I hadn't even heard of Warhammer 40k until a little over 9 months ago. I didn't actually start playing until about 6-7 months ago. I'm not much better off, I just experimented and studied the abilities like hell.

Mhhm. You see, buying an Ethereal is actually paying at least 100 points plus the mandatory commander's equipment, if you're going after a Shas'El. Giving the Aun a couple of Shield Drones means another 30 points, bringing the point cost really close to that of Shadowsun's.
What do you get with this deal? A suit with a better statline and a "1+ Commander" taped on it, which is actually not THAT impressive, and a fire magnet which needs to be protected at all costs, as it gives you a really big bonus while it's alive and a big malus if you were to lose it.
This doesn't really convince me, I'll tell you. Is it better than a not-so targettable unit which gives off a 'Discipline Bubble', totes a unique defensive weapon configuration, and does not risk crippling the entire army if it were to die? I'm not sure, but that's also because I don't really know Shadowsun all that well. In the 50+** games I've played so far I've never fielded her until the very last 4 1750 battles, which have been played using this particular list; and I gotta say that in all 4 of them I may have needed to take 5 or 6 leadership tests, not really letting her stand to the main reason why I bought her (helping me out with Leadership issues).


Like I said, Its all about synergy. Yes there's the inherent risk of losing the ethereal, but when you think about how you're playing it and what its capable of, if you're in a position where the ethereal is about to die, it probably means the rest of your entire firebase has been compromised. Your broadsides shrug off all standard wounds with ease, save for power weapons. You're adding 4 extra ablative wounds to this group, that each come with a 4+ Invul save. You're making it fearless. With the ethereal in the squad, you can allocate any and all wounds away from him, and he's got multiple wounds in case somehow the opponent manages to deal more than the 7 wounds needed to get the poor guy no matter what. If all of this is getting taken down to the point that the Ethereal is in danger, then honestly, you've probably already lost the game. save for the extremely rare occasion that you find yourself threatened by vindicare assassins, you're not going to need to worry. bonding knives and the shas'el will help in keeping order if you do think the ethereal's risk is too high, as a leadership 10 will rarely fail

also, the ethereal is 50 points. the 2 shield drones added to him keeps his cost at a meager 80. a centurion (or Similarly built Shas'el) will come in at 100 points (with varying weapon configurations like the missile pod/burst cannon combo, the viable point range for this guy can go as low as 85, and your 2 strongest shots are hitting at 36"). Most suits you run here WILL have a greater range than Shadowsun, meaning they can remain an offensive threat. If you look at the previous reports written, Shadowsun has not really seen much action that an ethereal could not have handled. You play her more for the command bubble, which the ethereal already does far more effectively than her (she needs to be in a certain range, the ethereal only needs LOS). Yes she's more durable, but she's also more than triple the base cost.

Her unique weapon configuration, while its a mech players worst nightmare, is worthless if she is not within the 12" range. and it's melta doesn't fully kick in until you're 6" away. It's great on paper, but when are you honestly going to use it? That kind of threat is only really significant when you deep strike her on an opponents tank formation, where she's in danger of dying, or as an area denial weapon against deep striking dreadnoughts (she could clear both the drop pod and dreadnought in 1 turn, which I admit, is effin' fabulous). Both of these examples are highly situational, as well as the vast majority of other uses she could have. If it weren't for her drones stripping her of her independent status, she would actually be a fearsome deep strike threat, being able to come in with a squad of stealth suits, drones, and fusion mayhem. Sadly, she doesn't even have this.

Yes there are ways to really make her shine, like being part of an advancing spearhead formation, where you have an advantage in mobility and she can keep the elements under control, so running her isn't completely out of the question. She makes for a durable crisis shield, using drones and her stealth field to grant cover saves to the guys behind her if there's a lack of vehicles. People that know what she can do WILL focus fire on her making her increase the survivability of the rest of your guys (a lot of shots can be wasted simply through the stealth rule). etc. etc. etc.

Taking all of that into consideration, I don't think your current army is suited to her use. Your list isn't crisis heavy (which is actually a refreshing change from the typical pattern) so there's not much of an effective offensive element she could actually compliment with her skill set. If you're running strong static elements in your army list (and your map isn't completely choked with LOS blocking obstacles), an ethereal almost always outperforms Shadowsun.

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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] Fire Record - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#9 » Sep 12 2010 11:51

A good counterpoint coming from the other end of the spectrum. I found the following the most intriguing point of your reply:

tehlegend wrote:Yes there are ways to really make her shine, like being part of an advancing spearhead formation, where you have an advantage in mobility and she can keep the elements under control, so running her isn't completely out of the question. She makes for a durable crisis shield, using drones and her stealth field to grant cover saves to the guys behind her if there's a lack of vehicles. People that know what she can do WILL focus fire on her making her increase the survivability of the rest of your guys (a lot of shots can be wasted simply through the stealth rule). etc. etc. etc


I've always seen her as a defensive choice, her guns being a deterrent, but never imagined her being the leader of a spearhead formation.
I'll think about the possibility, as I really can't judge this approach in just a few minutes' thinking. But the first thing that comes to mind is how much of a waste it could be under the train of thought of "Shadowsun is a detterrent".
I'll be sure to let you know.

Back in topic, I still fail to see the advantages of running an Ethereal as being so much better than running O'Shaserra. I find the first to be a little more of an army shift over offense (symbolised by the weakness you gain in assuming a more offensive stance and the extra Crisis Suit), whereas the latter is more like assuming a defensive position and wait for the chance of a counterattack (symbolised by the center of gravity that is the Discipline Bubble and the commander's Fusion Blasters).
They're both arguably good choices, really. I guess I'll really have to play both choices before I get my opinion down, though.
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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] Fire Record - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#10 » Sep 12 2010 12:17

When leadership rolls are made, its not always an issue of making sure the squad lasts. Its about making sure you get the best possible result, which isn't always the same. Thankfully, most ranged attacks that cause leadership do so with no negative modifiers to leadership, so 2 chances at a leadership roll with 7 or 8, is just as likely (if not more) to pass than a single leadership 10 roll, and this is granted to all units in LOS, not just the 18" bubble. So your group is far less likely to go to ground or break and run on a freak-accident-of-a-roll. When a unit is caught in melee, most of the time, you'll want that unit to break so that you can commence firing on it in your turn, This is where the ethereal shines, because he can force a reroll for any standard leadership test regardless of its result. Commander Shadowsun ensures all units in her vicinity do not run. an Ethereal ensures they run when they need to, and they stand when they need to. He also makes the unit he joins fearless, ensuring that the unit he's with does not run no matter what.

Don't get me wrong, Shadowsun is a VERY effective deterrent, and she can completely change how deep striking armies approach you. I just never saw a situation in your bat rep that indicated you ever needed her. The situations you've had and the armies you played have never prompted a use from her that you couldn't have achieved more effectively from an ethereal. Plus you do an excellent job keeping the broadsides out of harms way, so keeping an ethereal with them shouldn't be any more difficult.

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Re: [Kiten’s Cadre] Fire Record - 75T2 vs Imperial Guard

Post#11 » Sep 12 2010 02:55

Well, these were just two of many possible battles. I will have this list face many more difficulties in the immediate future, before eventually putting it to rest in favor of a new one-which means we should eventually be able to see a game where things won't go as smoothly as the last two.
Which is all but possible, as this last one was really being held together by an ongoing luck streak at a certain point.

I will most definetely include an Ethereal in the next list to be put under the test, in order to effectively see how an army led by an Aun performs right after we've seen how one lead by O'Shovah fared on the battlefield.
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