Tournament Cut Short

Battles and discussion of tactics from the earliest days of our Academy.
User avatar
Sa'cea Mont'yr
Shas'El
Shas'El
Posts: 1302
Contact:

Tournament Cut Short

Post#1 » Apr 26 2011 01:38

Well, I had the chance to go to a tournament pretty much at the last minute this past Sunday, and while I did pretty well, there were a couple of hiccups. The biggest, unfortunately, was that my kid was having a bad time with two molars trying to come in, and we had to leave before I was able to play the third game. I wasn't in the running for first place or anything, so other than being frustrated that the kids molars picking the day of the tournament to try and break through, I wasn't feeling bad about leaving to get her home. Following is my list and some highlights from the two games I was able to play, and a few pics.

The tournament format basically took the deployment and victory conditions from the fifth edition book and did a mix n' match with them. All victory conditions were in effect, while alternating between them for a primary, secondary, and tertiary goal. At the end of each game, you determine which goals you accomplished; if one person accomplished the primary, they won. If that was a tie, you compared secondary objectives and if that was a tie, you went to tertiary. If all of those were tied, we used the Victory Points chart from fourth edition.

My list:

Shas'el
-[Plasma, Missile, Shield, HW: Multi, Stims]

Shas'el
-[Plasma, Missile, Shield, HW: Multi, HW: BSF]

XV8 Team
-[TL: Plasma, Shield]
-[TL: Plasma, Shield]
-[TL: Missile, Shield]

XV8 Team
-[TL: Plasma, Shield]
-[TL: Plasma, Shield]
-[TL: Missile, Shield]

XV8 Team
-[TL: Plasma, Shield]
-[TL: Missle, Shield]
-[TL: Missile, Shield]

Fire Warrior Team
-[6 FW w/ PR]
-[1 DF w/ D-pod, SMS, Multi, TA]

Fire Warrior Team
-[6 FW w/ PR]
-[1 DF w/ D-pod, SMS, Multi, TA]

Kroot Kindred
-[10 Kroot]

Piranha Squadron
-[1 Piranha w/ Fusion, TA]

Piranha Squadron
-[1 Piranha w/ Fusion, TA]

XV88 Team
-[1 Shas'ui w/ TL, ASS, HW: DC + 2 SD, HW: BSF, BK]

XV88 Team
-[1 Shas'ui w/ TL, ASS, HW: DC + 2 SD, HW: BSF, BK]

Hammerhead
-[Rail, SMS, D-pod, Multi, Tgt Lock]

Game 1:
-So, I met a guy I've never seen before, but he has a beautifully painted army. I was unable to grab a clear picture of his army before it got put away for his next game, but it was really, really well done. His list was what he called "Descent of Angels," ie, everything used the DoA list. Here's what I remember. He gave me a copy, but I can't seem to find it:

Dante
-[Dante's Wargear]

Astorath the Grim
-[Astorath's Wargear]

Sanguinary Guard Squad
-[1 Guard w/ Banner, Angelus Boltgun]
-[4 Guard w/ Glaive Encarmine, Angelus Boltgun]

Sanguinary Guard Squad
-[5 Guard w/ Glaive Encarmine, Angelus Boltgun]

Sanguinary Guard Squad
-[5 Guard w/ Glaive Encarmine, Angelus Boltgun]

Death Company*
-[2 DC w/ Thunder Hammers, Jump Packs]
-[6 DC w/ Power Weapons, Bolt Pistols, Jump Packs]

Death Company Dread
-[Blood Talons, Melta, Heavy Flamer]
-[Drop Pod w/ Storm Bolter]

Death Company Dread
-[Blood Talons, Melta, Heavy Flamer]
-[Drop Pod w/ Storm Bolter]

Death Company Dread
-[Blood Talons, Melta, Heavy Flamer]
-[Drop Pod w/ Storm Bolter]

You'll notice that he doesn't have the requisite number of Death Company to allow him to take the second Death Company. I brought this up with him, and he and I went back and forth on the fact that just because Astorath removes the 0-1 on DC, it doesn't mean it removes the requirement for DC Dreads. I asked if we could take it to the Tournament Organizer, and he agreed, which gave me the impression that he was genuinely under the Impression that Astorath removes the requirement for Death Company Dreads. The TO agreed with me, and he agreed to switch the second dreadnought over to a Furioso Dread. It didn't matter all that much as we were playing objectives, and I had castled up against him. He decided to try and get rid of my meltas for some reason, going after my Piranhas with a vengeance, sacrificing both Dreadnoughts to try and kill them, of which he only killed one. To give you an idea of my castle, here's a pic:

Image

And here's the front edge after both dreads landed and shot their meltas:

Image

So, after deepstriking his two dreads right on top of me and losing both them and the pods, he gets everything in on the second turn. At the time, I was thinking I was going to be alright, as he had everything on the table and I wouldn't need to worry about leaving the castle to go hunt down some Guard. He had also deepstruck his DC within easy range of single and double-tap range of two of my plasma squads. After they landed, here's what his eight-man squad with Astorath attached looked like:

Image

I just couldn't put enough fire on them to kill the last three models. One of them killed himself jumping out of terrain, but between the other one and Astorath, they literally went through my entire army by themselves, and here's why: I couldn't fail a leadership check to save my life on his turn. I would lose by three wounds, and roll snake-eyes on his turn in hand-to-hand, then turn around and roll 8+ on my turn after losing by two wounds. One thing I found out later is that Astorath makes you re-roll successful invulnerable saves, which my opponent either forgot or wasn't telling me. I know that if I had been forced to re-roll successful saves, I would've more likely been able to fail on his turn, and been able to shoot the crap out of his remaining Death Company, and possibly save the game, or at least tie it.

Alas, this is what it looked like at the end of turn five.

Image

Game 2:

Another Blood Angels list, this time led by Mephiston. I was able to find the list the gent was able to provide me, so here it is:

Mephiston

Assault Squad
-[1 Sergeant w/ BP, CCW]
-[1 Marine w/ Melta]
-[3 Marines w/ Bolter, BP]
-[1 Razorback w/ TL: Lascannon]

Assault Squad
-[1 Sergeant w/ BP, CCW]
-[1 Marine w/ Melta]
-[3 Marines w/ Bolter, BP]
-[1 Razorback w/ TL: Lascannon]

Assault Squad
-[1 Sergeant w/ BP, CCW]
-[1 Marine w/ Melta]
-[3 Marines w/ Bolter, BP]
-[1 Razorback w/ TL: Lascannon]

Assault Squad
-[1 Sergeant w/ PW, BP]
-[1 Marine w/ Melta, BP]
-[4 Marines w/ Bolter, BP]
-[1 Razorback w/ TL: Heavy Bolter]

Terminator Assault Squad
-[1 Sergeant w/ TH, SS]
-[2 Terminators w/ TH, SS]
-[2 Terminators w/ Lightning Claws]
-[Landraider w/ Multi-melta, AC]

Sanguinary Priest Squad
-[3 Priests, attached to the 5-man Assault Squads]

I was unable to steal the initiative, which had me a bit unnerved. That was a LOT of lascannons looking my way. He pushed forward, neglecting to pop smoke because he wanted to bring down my Hammerhead and DF, leaving me easy prey for the rest of his army. It was not to be, as he failed to do a single thing to any of my vehicles or suits, and I returned his intentions with interest, popping the Land Raider and two Razorbacks while taking the turret off a third. I was feeling fantastic, giving him some bait on the right flank of a Piranha and FW team in DF to occupy himself while I tried to concentrate on the rest of his army. Sadly, it was not to be. Mephiston got into hand-to-hand, and while I had several turns to shoot him, I had a ridiculous time getting through his toughness strong enough to withstand multiple railgun rounds to the face and enough plasma to kill a terminator squad several times over. I finally killed him at the end, but again, at the expense of the entirety of my army.

Here's a pic of what he left in my deployment zone, since he didn't have to worry about my Railguns doing instant death on him.

Image

=====

Notes and Thoughts:

Blood Angels HQ choices are insane. I had no problem demolishing the rest of both armies, but once Mephiston and Astorath got into my lines, it was effectively game over. Even Sanguinary Guard aren't that much of a problem with proper fire support; I took one squad down to a single model with SMS fire over the course of a few turns.

My Kroot really under-performed, and I'm reminded yet again of why I never took them for the longest time. I'm likely going to not take them unless I'm playing Apocalypse, as even my Piranha outperformed them. Part of it, I'm sure, is due to the fact that there were no forests on either tale that I played on, but it's relatively common for there to not be enough forest for my Kroot to hide in. I'm probably going to drop the Kroot and take Sensor Spines for all my vehicles, or possibly upgrade one of the suits in each squad to a Shas'vre to take a bonding knife on the 3-Tau squads.

On a happier note, it's absolutely amazing to watch my army work like it's supposed too. The first gent I played said he was glad the primary goal was objectives as opposed to Kill Points, as he was completely lost on how he was going to break my castle, even with his super-elite list. Without the infernus pistols that his Guard could take, he was severely lacking in anti-tank, and would've had a hard time stopping any army that was vehicle heavy. Even against the second army, up until Mephiston got into my lines, I had the other guy on the ropes. I wiped his terminators without them getting into hand to hand, and his infantry were cowering behind cover the entire time until my last squad of suits were forced out of position by Mephiston.

===

Anyway, if you've gotten to this point, you get 500XP for the wall of text and a bonus 150XP if your eyes aren't bleeding. ;) That being said, thanks for reading, and I hope I provided at least a little bit of entertainment. Oh, and feel free to ask any questions or make any suggestions.
Shas'el Sa'cea Cal'Ka Mon'tyr

User avatar
RevRanDoM
Por'O
Por'O
Posts: 1576

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#2 » Apr 26 2011 03:00

Good write up but bummer about the two losses. Interesting, if not surprising, that your two games were both against BA. Were you able to get a look at the rest of the field? Were there a variety of armies at the tournament or just more BA? ;)

Aside from the end when the enemy HQ's hit your lines, I was glad to hear that your army was performing the way you liked and it sounds like it was pretty competitive, even with our codex starting to show it's age.

Good work. :)

User avatar
Sa'cea Mont'yr
Shas'El
Shas'El
Posts: 1302
Contact:

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#3 » Apr 26 2011 03:49

Well, out of approximately 12 players, there were four or five BA players, no Grey Knights, at least one IG, two Tau players, a single Tyranid player, a single Chaos player and one or two Eldar players. There were also a variety of other sundry Marines, vanilla and otherwise.

I won't say that the army was super competitive, but it felt really good to have BA players on their heels, unsure of what to do right away.
Shas'el Sa'cea Cal'Ka Mon'tyr

User avatar
Peregrine
Kor
Posts: 1378

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#4 » Apr 26 2011 03:52

Two suggestions:

1) Drop the Warfish upgrades. It's just too many points to pay for such mediocre firepower, and the latest FAQ has fixed the kill point problem by making vehicle gun drones die with the vehicle.

2) Replace the TL/shield crisis suits with the standard two-weapon or TL/TA setups. You're spending a lot of points (especially with those expensive shield generators on everything) on them, but your total firepower is pretty lacking. And since there what, one weapon in the game (IG Colossus) that ignores both cover saves and crisis suit armor saves, you can just put them in cover to get a free "shield generator" anyway.

User avatar
lostinnm
Shas
Posts: 1274
Contact:

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#5 » Apr 26 2011 04:04

Sunday I was too busy with term papers to bring my wolves out to play. Sorry to hear you ran into the worst army for tau to face, twice. If you are interested, I'll be looking for some more 40k games at AI in a couple weeks.
As for the guy with the multiple DC dreads, I believe he can take more than one, so long as he brings at least one unit of DC for each dread.

User avatar
Sa'cea Mont'yr
Shas'El
Shas'El
Posts: 1302
Contact:

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#6 » Apr 26 2011 05:28

Peregrine, the reason I take so many shield gens is because cover is generally lacking on tables in my local area, and my suits are engaged with multiple anti-tank weapons anyway. That being said, I'm willing to give the cover bit a shot and drop some shield generators in favor of some more shooty bits.

Lost, I'd be happy to go up against your wolves. I don't normally get to AI until about 5pm, just to give you a heads up.
Shas'el Sa'cea Cal'Ka Mon'tyr

User avatar
kiyet
Shas
Posts: 127

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#7 » Apr 26 2011 06:05

lostinnm wrote:As for the guy with the multiple DC dreads, I believe he can take more than one, so long as he brings at least one unit of DC for each dread.


The limitation in DC Dreads is one DC Dread for every X DC marines. The Blood Angels player did not have enough DC marines for three DC Dreads.
Astorath's ability changes the 0-1 Death Company FOC selection to 0+, but that FOC selection is for the marines first. Once he has enough DC marines to have additional DC Dreads, then each DC Dread takes up a troop slot on the FOC. Astorath doesn't say "ignore the prerequisites for purchasing DC Dreads", just that the 0-1 limitation on the Death Company Blood Angels Space Marines is changed.

That being said, good job on making the Blood Angels' players scratch their heads and panic! The low-model count Death Company lists give my Dark Eldar ulcers, but make my Tau dance happily. All the way up until one of the BA Characters get into close combat. :fear:
MonT'au?
We're not lost, we're exploring.

User avatar
Peregrine
Kor
Posts: 1378

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#8 » Apr 26 2011 09:01

Sa'cea Mont'yr wrote:Peregrine, the reason I take so many shield gens is because cover is generally lacking on tables in my local area, and my suits are engaged with multiple anti-tank weapons anyway. That being said, I'm willing to give the cover bit a shot and drop some shield generators in favor of some more shooty bits.


You shouldn't have too many problems with lack of cover, even without much terrain on the table (though really, fix this problem). With TLOS and JSJ, it's very easy to get your crisis suits behind your screening units where they can claim a cover save in addition to the protection from assaults. And since you saved the cost and hardpoints you were spending on shield generators, now you can bring more firepower and reduce the need for protection. After all, if you've already killed the threat, you don't need to worry about getting a cover save against it.


Granted, you might have some unhappy opponents whining about it when you claim a cover save for having the feet of your crisis suits "hidden" behind a couple Kroot, but those are the rules in 5th edition. If they don't like it, they can put more terrain on the table.

User avatar
Sa'cea Mont'yr
Shas'El
Shas'El
Posts: 1302
Contact:

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#9 » Apr 27 2011 01:22

Peregrine wrote:
You shouldn't have too many problems with lack of cover, even without much terrain on the table (though really, fix this problem). With TLOS and JSJ, it's very easy to get your crisis suits behind your screening units where they can claim a cover save in addition to the protection from assaults. And since you saved the cost and hardpoints you were spending on shield generators, now you can bring more firepower and reduce the need for protection. After all, if you've already killed the threat, you don't need to worry about getting a cover save against it.


Well, I suppose I could get away with spending some points on two more Piranha and another squad of Kroot for screening, or I may look into a Pathfinder squad. With my army finally starting to work like its supposed to, do you think a PF squad would be worth the points?
Shas'el Sa'cea Cal'Ka Mon'tyr

User avatar
Yami Kero
Shas
Posts: 341

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#10 » Apr 27 2011 07:26

Nice battle report Sa'cea Mont'yr. I really enjoy reading reports, especially if there are Blood Angels to be fought.

I can concur on first account with you on the BA HQ situation. When my BA buddy fields Dante I have yet to win a game, or even draw for that matter. Those guys are simply one-man wreaking crews that, if left in combat due to actually making LD throws on Tau, can clear your deployment zone in a turn or two.

I agree with Peregrine on both his points that a) you spend to many points on your crisis suit hardpoints and I agree that slimming it down would really help your army and b) with the new FAQ warfishs are a lot less appealing. But I would like to focus on your suits and what they can do.

I presume (I know that is dangerous :roll: ) you use TL weapon because of the better hit chance and the shield generators for survivability. This does mean that on a PR suit you pay 35! points on a 25% hit chance increase and a 4++ save that can be obtained from simply JSJ'ing over a Piranha, Kroot wall or piece of terrain. For a little less then 300 points worth of shield generators you can make a lot of Kroot walls or add a big squad of Piranha's.

But my primary shooting advice would be to use Pathfinders instead of TL weapons. With the mandatory D-fish you can give to the FW, you would only spend roughly a 100 more points on a, on average, +2 BS and -2 cover for any unit in your army. For instance, on turn 1 your Bsides, Deathrains and Railheads and further on your Plasma units.

This setup has multiple benefits. 1) Your suits can wield 2 weapons and a MT now because you can up the BS with the PF to hit with all weapons most of the time, 2) you give the opponent and other prime target to shoot at (when your opponent knows that a Railgun will be fired at him with BS 5 TWL and no cover you can bet he will start hitting those PFs with something) that relieves pressure on other units so there would be less need to use SGs and 3) since Markerlights hits don't generate cover saves you can place them safely in your castle and snipe away.

As for the SGs I would like to swap all of them for a few Shield Drones. If you where to remove all SGs you would gain around 300 points. If you give both HQ 2 SD and attach them to 1 of the elite squads and place them in cover you get 6 wound allocation targets and 4 allocation choices (the HQ, the Team leader, 2 fireknifes and 2 drones). As an added bonus, even should the worst case happen, Vindicators or Leman Russ' start shooting at them, if you have spread them out, the chance of them all getting hit is quite small. Even if they miss 1 model, that is 1 less save you have to roll and since 2 models are expendable anyway and you get the 4+ cover save for being behind Kroot/Piranha's or normal cover, you save half you units anyway. So, with SGs you save 50% but with SD you can save models, pile wounds on drones and save 50% of your units. Two squads of SD cost 25% of the all the SGs you field.

To sum up: remove your SGs. Spend those points on SDs, PFs and more weapons on suits (one TL PR unit only cost 2 more points to make it a Fireknife). This will give more dakka, less cover save for the opponents more prime targets for opponent and different, but IMHO better, protection.

PS: Some points are not 100% accurate but I want to err on the side of cations with GWIP and all.
PPS: 2SDs to protect 1 Bside is quite a lot when you consider that you castle. Maybe lose 1 SD on 1 squad and use the points you save on the 2 warfished to buy a 3rd Bside. Food for thought ;)

User avatar
lostinnm
Shas
Posts: 1274
Contact:

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#11 » Apr 27 2011 09:46

In agreement with most of Yami Kero's advice. Another trick for cover is to use your vehicles for cover. Crisis suits can keep up with your tanks and hide behind them after they shoot. Personally I'm not a fan of the Burning Eye config since a 'Vre Helios bodyguard is killier and just as cost effective per kill within 12". If you dropped the second Shas'El and swapped out the Shield generators for Shield Drones you could afford a BS4 Helios/Fireknife Bodyguard team.
Last edited by lostinnm on Apr 27 2011 02:00, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sa'cea Mont'yr
Shas'El
Shas'El
Posts: 1302
Contact:

Re: Tournament Cut Short

Post#12 » Apr 27 2011 10:17

Thanks for the reply, Yami Kero, very well written. Before I reply directly, I want to make sure folks understand something. Up until a week ago, I sucked at 40K. Pure and simple. 10+ Years of being able to count wins on just my hands. In my other thread, Rev posted a link to a dice article that convinced me to buy new dice because of how well it coincided with what I had experienced. You can talk averages and mathhammer all you like, but until recently, it didn't matter to me at all, because the numbers didn't work for me. I needed that survivability just to avoid getting tabled in three turns. Same goes for the amount of twin-linked weapons; just to get maybe five hits throughout the game from all my suits I needed to twin-link everything.

That being said, I also want to thank you, Peregrine and lostinnm for your suggestions. I hope to drop a few shield generators, as I am well aware of the points involved, and I'm becoming a bit more used to operating my vehicles as shields for my suits.

In regards to Pathfinders, I'm certainly interested, but I haven't taken them more than maybe 20 times in the last ten years. I'm still feeling my way into them. The one time I took them after my new dice, they performed admirably, but for this tournament, I wanted to play with what I was comfortable with. Now that I have dice that don't roll 25% ones, I feel like I can start to explore some of the more dice-dependent aspects of the Tau army.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I'm working them into my list, and it's nice to have the extra points to work with. Hopefully I'll be able to get a game in next week, and will try to post a batrep, also with pictures.

Again, if you have any questions or suggestions, keep them coming. It's nice to be active again in a community I like.
Shas'el Sa'cea Cal'Ka Mon'tyr

Return to “Archival Datacore”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest