A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1500

A review of past Cadre formations from tau'cyr before.
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Carrelio
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Posts: 330

A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1500

Post#1 » Feb 07 2013 11:12

Hello ATT!

I wasn’t really sure about what format I should design this post in; you see, a recent project of mine has been to put together a list for all the most common point values. 2000 points went well enough, and if anything 1850 is even beardier... but as I start dropping down lower, I start running into issue with knowing what to drop (I just like all the options so much!). With my eventual end goal as no less than 8 lists I felt a separate thread for each might be a little wasteful. On the other hand, in this format, I worry that past the first list, people may start to get lost, or lose focus. So please! Stick with me! There are going to be a lot of lists here, but I need your help to make them the best they can be!

Before I begin posting lists I would like to make a handful of general points of my army building clear.

First and foremost, I play a mobile mechanized army. I play in a number of different areas with differing metas of competitive play and differing amounts of terrain and I feel gunlines rely far too heavily on praying you kill enough enemy models before they reach your front lines to ever be effective. Further, quite frankly the idea of never really moving your pieces and just rolling lots of dice is boring to me. I would much rather (and do) trade a large chunk of my direct fire power to make sure my force survives to squeak out a win through tactical flexibility. Thus I will be very hesitant to include fire warriors without a transport, or an aegis defense line.

Second, I do not use Forge World models. Despite GW accepting them as game legal, there are still players who won’t play against them because they are not officially in the Tau codex. I never want to build a list that relies on something that I don’t have guaranteed access to, and I have never actually purchased any FW models either and don’t really plan on doing so.

Third, you will quickly notice I do not use markerlights. Without FW tetras, I don’t have a way of including them with any reliable mobility and at a reasonable cost. I support my multitracker suits with target arrays instead, and use twinlinking where I can. This will often account for why my hqs and elites are arranged the way they are.

Fourth, I have a lot of models at my disposal. I am not afraid to scrap an entire list and replace it with whatever the need requires. Don’t hold back on any changes. I have the required pieces to do so.

Fifth, this one may sound a little weird, but people are constantly telling me my fire warrior squads are designed wrong. They might be... but to date no one who has tried to tell me this has understood why I design them the way I do. So before you go telling me my fire warrior squads are built wrong, read this and come up with an argument as to why another format would be better. My fire warrior squads are composed of X number of fire warriors, a shas’ui with black sun filter and drone controller and a single gun drone. Given that fire warriors are now playing a way more active role in their battlefield survival, I think the leadership boost is worth the 10 points. Being able to shoot without penalty in turns 1 or 5-7 in case of night fight for 3 points is also really sweet since fire warriors are one of the few units in the game who can take full advantage of shooting in these turns thanks to their 30” weapons (also screw you night fighting necrons)! The drone is there because an initiative test to flee from a lost combat is done on the unit’s highest initiative; with a drone along for the ride, my fire warriors might actually live long enough to get another turn of shooting in rather than just getting overrun when they lose combat.

Finally, I really appreciate criticism, but I will often argue for the choice I have made. This can often come off as defensive or arrogant, but it is not my intent; I just want to make sure the choice is the right one and prevent myself from jumping straight into a change without a properly supported argument. Please do not take this as a sign that I am not taking your advice to heart and thinking about it; I get the most out of confrontational discussions because they give me a chance to really put my ideas to a proper test.

Now that that is out of the way, let us begin!

2000 Points

This is the list that started it all; the whole experiment to make a list for every occasion! It’s the second largest list size I intent to make and the most common of the GW closest to my university. I knew what I wanted, and I went and made it! It’s a heavily mechanized throw back to 5th edition. Skimmers and battlesuits. Constantly on the move; trading direct firepower for long term survivability and mobility. It has really served me well in my recent games, only failing when I personally slip up, and I am pretty happy with it, but if anyone sees anything that would benefit me, feel free to share.

HQ: Helios Pattern Shas’el – 130 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWBSF
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones
2 Helios Pattern Bodyguards – 164 points
Suit 1:
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT
Suit 2:
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT

HQ: Aurora Pattern Shas’el – 133 points
- Plasma rifle
- CIB
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWBSF
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones
2 Helios Pattern Bodyguards – 164 points
Suit 1:
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT
Suit 2:
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT

Elites: 3 Deathrain Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuits – 166 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- TL missile pods
- Target array
- HWTL
- HWBSF
Suit 2:
- TL missile pods
- Target array
Suit 3:
- TL missile pods
- Flamer

Troops: 10 Fire Warriors – 123 points
- 10 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 10 Fire Warriors – 123 points
- 10 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 10 Fire Warriors – 123 points
- 10 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod


Heavy Support: 3 Broadside Battlesuits – 278 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- Target Array
- HWDC
- 2 shield drones
- HWBSF
- HWTL
Suit 2:
- Target array
Suit 3:
- Target lock

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Total: 1999 Points

Comments: As you can see, it follows my mobility mantra pretty well. I hope everything is pretty self explanatory, but a brief summary of the tactics employed by this army are as follows. All objectives are to be placed out in the open. The broadsides, forming the only immobile portion of this list will be deployed in heavy cover away from the ‘swing’ direction of the main force and away from objectives, they will focus primarily on heavy vehicles, then lighter vehicles, then heavy infantry in order of target priority. The devilfish will always move flat out, and will attempt to find an opening in which to advance and space out, supported by the hammerheads (priority light infantry, with a secondary focus on tanks). Fire warriors will only deploy when the situation is deemed advantageous to do so. Deathrains will jump along in the wake of the vehicles taking out enemy transports and monsterous creatures. HQ teams will deepstrike in to pick off isolated elite units such as terminators or devastators in a precision strike.


1850 Point Tau List

A very common tournament size in my area, the 1850 list is built on the same template as the 2000 point list; using a heavy reliance on mobility and survivability to net its victories. My tactic for writing the list was a little bit like editing a paper that is over the maximum word count. I had something that I liked, and I cut it down until it was only the best of everything. In my opinion it’s the best list I have ever written. Of the games I have used it in the only losses rest firmly upon my shoulders due to tactical slip ups.

HQ: Helios Pattern Shas’el – 127 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

HQ: Aurora Pattern Shas’el – 130 points
- Plasma rifle
- CIB
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

Elites: 3 Deathrain Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuits – 166 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- TL missile pods
- Target array
- HWTL
- HWBSF
Suit 2:
- TL missile pods
- Target array
Suit 3:
- TL missile pods
- Flamer

Elites: Monat Helios Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuit – 77 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- Team leader
- HWMT

Elites: Monat Helios Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuit – 77 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- Team leader
- HWMT

Troops: 11 Fire Warriors – 133 points
- 11 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 11 Fire Warriors – 133 points
- 11 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 11 Fire Warriors – 133 points
- 11 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Heavy Support: 3 Broadside Battlesuits – 278 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- Target Array
- HWDC
- 2 shield drones
- HWBSF
- HWTL
Suit 2:
- Target array
Suit 3:
- Target lock

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Total: 1849 points

Comments: The tactics are the same as the 2000 point list, and indeed, it’s the same list plus or minus a couple models... but honestly it’s just that much nastier and takes full advantage of the 6th edition character rules. The shas’el now get a 2+ look out sir roll, and their ‘bodyguard’ (the shas’ui team leaders) who are less points get a 4+ look out sir and precision shot!

1750 Point Tau List

This is the design that I've worked out so far for the 1750 point list thanks to your continued help here at ATT! Thanks everyone!

HQ: Helios Pattern Shas’el – 127 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

HQ: Aurora Pattern Shas’el – 130 points
- Plasma rifle
- CIB
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

Elites: 3 Deathrain Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuits – 166 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- TL missile pods
- Target array
- HWTL
- HWBSF
Suit 2:
- TL missile pods
- Target array
Suit 3:
- TL missile pods
- Flamer

Elites: Monat Helios Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuit – 77 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- Team leader
- HWMT

Elites: Monat Helios Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuit – 77 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- Team leader
- HWMT

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Heavy Support: 3 Broadside Battlesuits – 278 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- Target Array
- HWDC
- 2 shield drones
- HWBSF
- HWTL
Suit 2:
- Target array
Suit 3:
- Target lock

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Total: 1750 points

On to 1500!
Last edited by Carrelio on Feb 08 2013 04:07, edited 5 times in total.

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Das'Kyman
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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#2 » Feb 07 2013 12:06

one question. I'm a little confused by your Broadside support systems.
So you have a team leader with target array and HW target lock, an 'ui with target array, and an 'ui with target lock? was this intentional to save some points and maintain ability to split fire 3 ways? (it's understandable, since you can just fire the non-target array at a less important target, it just struck me as odd at first)

STS17
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Posts: 717

Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#3 » Feb 07 2013 01:03

Da Skyman wrote:one question. I'm a little confused by your Broadside support systems.
So you have a team leader with target array and HW target lock, an 'ui with target array, and an 'ui with target lock? was this intentional to save some points and maintain ability to split fire 3 ways? (it's understandable, since you can just fire the non-target array at a less important target, it just struck me as odd at first)


I've found it to be one of the better configurations for a broadside team (truth be told I pretty much consider it the only configuration for Broadsides). In fact, I almost never leave home without a team in that exact configuration. The unit offers an extreme level of tactical flexibility and allows your broadsides to respond to nearly any battlefield situation in an adequate fashion with minimal downside. You can focus your firepower on must-answer or hard to kill threats if needed or spread all of your shots out to minimize potential overkill.

Sometimes you need to kill that one land raider or storm raven or monstrous creature, and you can do that. Other times you're facing down a number of transports with homogeneous units inside and it's less important which specific ones dies as long as you demech some of them to slow down the advance. Such a Broadside unit can handle both situations quite well.

If you have not tried fielding such a unit I would highly recommend it.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none.

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Carrelio
Shas
Posts: 330

Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#4 » Feb 07 2013 02:58

Its primary reasoning is actually a throw back to 5th edition wounds allocation, where different wargear consituted a mixed unit and thus more control over the spread of wounds. However, it's current purpose is to allow for a 3 way split of fire between my broadsides while still having the majority at BS4.

Edit:

For the 1750 point list I could take the 1850 list and just drop the fire warriors down a peg. Remove 3 Fire warriors from each squad (for teams of 9) and lost the black sun filters on them. This would bring me to 1750 on the nose. It reduces the list's fire power marginally in weight of fire, and also marginally reduces the survivability of my scoring choice. On the other hand it leaves my real 1850 point list almost fully intact and still hitting with nearly the same strength as the 1850 list.

Thoughts on this?

im2randomghgh
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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#5 » Feb 07 2013 06:54

A few places I can see some trimming occurring here would be gun drones on FW (they still only have a 33% chance of escaping from the large majority of units in 40k, and won't be that helpful if there are only two or so left anyways, rallying on snake eyes), getting rid of a broadside (especially in 1750, you just don't need quite so many, so a unit of two with teamleader, 2 TA, 1 HWBSF, 1 HWDC and 2 shield drones should be less than 200pts, plus this is 6ed! Heavy vehicle are becoming scarcer). Additionally, you will probably have at least on firewarrior squad holding a home objective in most games, right? Could you shave one fish?

And it would only shave a few points, but you could remove the fusion blasters on your suits and replace them with burst cannons, put those two suits in a unit and attach them to the shas'el, as they would compliment each other quite well. A few more incidental points, if your firewarriors are mounted, they likely don't need blacksun filters (which are already very situational for a gun that can't pierce power armour, which is usually their main target) since they'll (probably) be either mounted or in reserve turn 1, and even if NF comes in later, they'll probably be a bit closer than they would be in a static tau list anyways.

One more possibility would be to take a third helios, put them all in the same unit, and then drop a hammerhead. It would net you 8 points to play around with, remove 2 kill points from your list and round out the helios unit.

Finally, you could drop the Aurora'el, as two commanders is kind of unnecessary, and also he doesn't really 'fit' anywhere (certainly not with the 2 helios suit; melta guns and S3 dakka weapons don't mix)

Of none of those appeal to you, then you're obviously stuck on this particular list, and it is time to rebuild from the ground up.
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Carrelio
Shas
Posts: 330

Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#6 » Feb 07 2013 07:50

I think you may actually be doing the calculation wrong on rolling the initiative check to flee from combat, since chance of success is related to two independent dice rolls, the first (yours) being greater than the second (your opponents). Maybe I'm just over complicating the matters... but I think this means that the way to solve this would be more like this: If I roll a 1 my opponent can roll 1-6 and I will lose, if I roll a 2 my opponent can roll a 2-6 and I will lose, if I roll a 3... and so on. Then we add up the total opportunities that I will win and compare them to all possible outcomes... and we find that with the gun drone we are getting away 42% of the time against an I4 enemy (marines) while with just fire warriors we only have a 17% chance of success. These are pretty rough equations I'm writing up, but the point is that there is a significant improvement in unit survival and it only costs 1 pulse rifle shot per unit. That's a 25% increase in unit survivability.
Now understandably that doesn't seem like much of a big deal when you realize it's only saving a couple of fire warriors who will still probably run off the board anyways, but it means that those bodies are still doing something, rather than being wiped out. If they rally, great! If they don't they will still get a turn or two of snapshots, which is a turn or two more snap shots than they would have if they were just straight up dead.

I think I may still drop some fire warriors from the squad, though. It will shift the unit focus from a slightly more offensive one to a slightly more defensive one... which is fine since my fire warriors have only ever once performed a game changing turn of shooting and that was against a rather poorly constructed nids list. If I drop them down to a squad of 9 (including the drone), they'll still have all the same defensive abilities with just a little less fire power. With less fire power, I probably won't need to use a BSF either, which as you say is situational. So I can drop those from each squad too and bring my total to 1750.

I'm also very leery about dropping the devilfish. I place objectives in the least convenient places possible and don't take them until the very end of the game. They will be out in the open and directly in multiple firing lanes. This makes it very hard for enemies to hold those objectives successfully, but means that with a devilfish providing its own 2+ cover save and often totally blocking line of sight to the fire warriors, I have no problems at all. There is also the chance that I will have to abandon my deployment zone all together. Take away the devilfish in this strategy, and all you've got left are fire warriors standing out in the open.

The battlesuits are organized so that each Shas'El gets his 'bodygaurd' in the form of a helios. Under almost every circumstance I will run them in teams of two, a Shas'el and a Shas'ui together. This also means that every multitracker suit in my list has a target array to bring their BS up to 4. Adding any further elite helios either means I need to move them back into the HQ section to unlock 'Vre status for them, or I lose that BS4 on a suit. I am very hesitant to do so without the addition of markerlights, which I don't intend to add. This also means that so long as I want 4-6 suits on the field with anti-TEQ capabilities, I need the two Shas'El.

The helios over the bladestorm was something I put a lot of thought into. In the end it comes down to a combination of factors. First, I've got access to enough S5 AP5 firepower from other parts of my list that I don't feel battlesuits need it. Second, the helios teams are designed for the purpose of taking out elite MEQ and TEQ units. Small units... high armour saves... and often paired with FNP. Burst cannons begin to suffer as the toughness increases, as the armour values increase, as the FNP starts sucking up the spill over, or some dreadful combination of the 3 (nurgle terminators/plague marines are a good example) the fusion blaster just doesn't care.

As for the Aurora personally, I don't know why everyone keeps saying he doesn't synthesize properly, since nothing could be further from the truth. When I ask myself whatr is a helios's primary role the answer is obvious. To kill TEQ and elite MEQ using the AP 1-2 weaponry. The CIB share that role perfectly. Sure it's got 5 shots, and sure it's only strength 3... but it's still cutting through armour like butter on a 6 (which given that you're rolling 5 dice usually means you'll be seeing a 6 roughly each turn). I admit, the aurora changes the role of the unit a little, making it less of an opportunity hunter against vehicles, but it would be a lie to say it is not pulling every bit as much of its weight against infantry as the helios.

Taking all this into consideration... how’s this?

1750 Point Tau List


HQ: Helios Pattern Shas’el – 127 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

HQ: Aurora Pattern Shas’el – 130 points
- Plasma rifle
- CIB
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

Elites: 3 Deathrain Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuits – 166 points
- 3 TL missile pods
- 2 Target arrays
- Flamer
- Team leader
- HWBSF
- HWTL

Elites: Monat Helios Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuit – 77 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- Team leader
- HWMT

Elites: Monat Helios Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuit – 77 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- Team leader
- HWMT

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Heavy Support: 3 Broadside Battlesuits – 278 points
- 2 Target arrays
- Target lock
- Team leader
- HWBSF
- HWTL
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Total: 1750 points

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Mon'von
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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#7 » Feb 07 2013 09:06

Would you not consider a stealth team in place of a fire warrior unit? It would give you added tank killyness with a fusion blaster, a markerlight or two, an infiltrating unit and they are still very mobile.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd" Fate remains inexorable

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Carrelio
Shas
Posts: 330

Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#8 » Feb 07 2013 09:10

The issue with the stealth suits is that they don't score. I wouldn't feel comfortable playing a list larger than 1250 points without 3 troop choices, especially now that so much of the game is won and lost by the capture of objectives.

Caldias
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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#9 » Feb 07 2013 11:14

I usually run an Aurora Shas'o, and give him a HW TL and put him in there with a Burning Eye unit and deep strike. I've found him invaluable against TEQ.

I would also suggest getting a Stealth Team, but I have a soft spot for them. The many ways you can deploy them is the main reason, either as a buffer/scout force, deep striking distraction force, and an outflanking ambush squad. You can almost guarantee them cover, too, which goes a long way to making them survivable.

I'd say maybe drop a devilfish and spend the points on another Fire Warrior squad for more pulse rifle goodness. Fire Warriors inside transports aren't killing much. Also, dropping the Shas'uis in your Fire Warrior squads would allow you to take two more Fire Warriors for the points, which with what im2randomghgh said being the reason, not much of a chance to pin and the range is short. It's even harder to pin without marker lights.

Marker lights would be nice, too, though it's a huge investment unless you have tetras. For the BS buff AND the deep strike rerolls.

Your list looks solid, these are just suggestions.

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Carrelio
Shas
Posts: 330

Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#10 » Feb 07 2013 11:58

Thanks for the input guys!

In the 2250 list I'm almost definitely bringing a unit of stealth suit (or maybe another unit of deathrains... or maybe a 30 man ork allies blob with Big Mek...okay... so it's a little up in the air... but probably either stealths or deathrains... maybe... I suppose that's why I have this thread!).

As I mentioned before I'm very leery about dropping the devilfish, since while fire warriors in a fish are not very shooty... fire warriors outside (meaning without a devilfish at all... since using a devilfish as a LOS blocking wall keeps fire warriors just as safe inside and outside of it) a devilfish are not very alive. The shas'ui may be worth 2 fire warriors, the fire warriors are spending more time out of the fish than they used to, meaning that they are more susceptible to take damage and need to test their leadership. At LD 7, you will have a 42% chance of running. At LD 8 you only have a 22% chance of failing that same test. That's a big enough difference that I'm willing to reduce my unit's ranged firepower by a little bit (8%-17% depending on unit size). The drone is kind of the same deal, though you can see the argument for that in my above post. I guess old habits die hard since my fire warriors are still primarily objective taking meat bags who I try to keep as defensive as I can.

Pinning is something that is great when it happens, but you never expect it to. So no need to increase its likelihood with markerlights, its not even a factor in the list design. Markerlights would be nice to reduce cover and boost BS... but are not necessary in my opinion.

Perhaps it might help my cause better if I explained my gaming mantra a bit more. It's something I'm constantly trying to tell people, but rarely convey properly. Dice are unreliable. A mechanized list focuses on taking the luck out of the game and replaces it with something purely dependent on the player, the movement. The list lives and dies in the movement phase and in theory could win a game without ever once rolling a dice (it would be ridiculous to choose to do so in a competitive game, but I have practiced this idea against friends before in order to understand the full scope and ability of my army). Then there is the opportunity cost. With each unit I pay for, I am not just paying for its direct abilities, but its abilities to provide opportunities throughout the game, thus a unit that is alive for the whole game is worth more to me than a unit that does more damage but will die faster (some would argue my helios are a glaringly hypocritical unit given this mantra... but there is no reason a helios has to die to be effective, and thus the point is moot). And thus, we get lists like the above.

I'm still not sure if I'm entirely happy with the 1750 list or not... but I think I will move on to the next list in my project anyways. 1500 points. More on this later.

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shasocastris
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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#11 » Feb 08 2013 12:05

Why do the fire warriors have blacksun filters? Do you face a lot of armies where the cover save is needed vs the AP of pulse weapons?

Also, why is there a gun drone in each squad? Not really criticism, just curious.

As a fan of 3-man broadside teams, I like what you've done. My configurations tend to be simpler in 6th ed, as I've always preferred to KNOW I'm going to blow one thing to kingdome come vs possible cripple many things, but I can see the logic in having the option to split fire. Especially for the small points cost. I may have to adopt it. Hmm...

To the Aurora naysayers, it IS worth it. The aurora was shown some time ago to be the optimal MEQ, TEQ hunting machine, not just for killing power, but for the 'I operate at 18" and can stay away from combat' part. That said, Do you find you have enough plasma in the army list? In 6th ed, I traditionally ran two helios-esque units at full strength, so six suits. Are four suits enough?

Also, have you tried any of these lists with pathfinders (dropping a FW team maybe)? I feel that you will, with this list, run up against cover being your bane. I've had moments where I've had three penetrating hits against a land raider and smoke launchers got rid of all three. Then I started using pathfinders/tetras. Broadsides became MUCH better.

Also, I hate to be a stickler about this, but could you format the army list as in the army list guide? I'm having trouble following precisely what the wargear is for each model.

Cheers!

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Carrelio
Shas
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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#12 » Feb 08 2013 01:25

What army I am facing is really quite variable. I travel around quite a bit, so my local meta actually extends to three very diverse gaming groups. The BSF are probably not 100%, since marines are still a big part of what I play against, but I’d say about half of my games are played against low armour armies including Ork, Nid, and IG hordes, as well as MSU Dark Eldar (I can and will shoot their vehicles down with pulse rifles on turn 1! Though this is dependent on some other factors as well).

I somewhat explained the gun drone thing throughout the thread so far, but let me try and put it all together into one paragraph. Taking a gun drone instead of a fire warrior reduces the unit’s firing strength by 1 S5 AP5 shot per turn. If the unit gets caught up in combat and loses (read: always loses), the unit with a gun drone has a 42% chance of getting away while the unit of just fire warriors only has a 17% chance (using MEQ statistics and some very rough math). The unit might rally, but even if it doesn’t it will still get a turn or two of snapfire shooting unlike the unit that didn’t get away and just straight up died. In my eyes, a chance of something happening versus no chance of it happening for no real cost (decrease in firepower is negligible to the overall play style of the list) is an easy choice; always pick the option with the most opportunities for the least cost.

My logic behind the broadsides is that I have the flexibility to choose. If something really needs to come down (like a landraider full of assault terminators), it’s coming down. On the other hand, if there are a handful of things that I would like to take out but are of an overall lower threat level (a trio of dreadnoughts comes to mind) I can split the fire 3 ways and increase my chance of wrecking more than one a turn. Or any combination in between (take down a monolith with two of them and take potshots at a flyer with the third?). It doesn’t cost me anything (the cost of the HWTL and the regular TL are the same as having just bought that last suit a target array), the decrease in accuracy is negligible, and it gives me more flexibility, which is always something I want (space wolf devastators are the envy of all the marines because they can do this... I want to be the envy of all space marines!).

Four anti-MEQ/TEQ suits at 1850 points is not as hard hitting as the 6 at 2000 points, but it’s enough from what I have seen of it so far. What it usually means is that I am looking at a 2 turn offensive to cripple a target rather than a single run and gun incident. However, a big part to remember is that I don’t need to flat out destroy a unit to cripple its fighting capacity. A unit of 5 marines (the preferred target of my unit) will face the decision of losing over half its models, or going to ground in which case that unit is effectively stopped in its tracks, and neutered in its offensive abilities until the next turn where they will have to make the same choice again.

I used to run pathfinders in every list; back in 5th edition where they were even worse no less! I tried and I tried to get these over glorified fire warriors to work for me, but in the end I found them overwhelmingly disappointing. Now, perhaps it was because I was running a list designed to synthesize with markerlight support (read: elite multitracker suits)... so when they inevitably died in turn 2, my whole army caved in around the... or maybe it was because they had to choose between the options of be effective at your purpose and die because you are literally a sitting duck, or move like everything else, and be a complete waste of points... Whatever the case they just were not doing it for me. The costs outweighed the benefits, and I moved on. I have heard very good things about tetras since then... but I as I mentioned above, I’m not keen on FW stuff.

I’ll work on changing my lists over tomorrow. It’s getting very late here.

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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#13 » Feb 08 2013 03:57

Having just come away from a tourniment playing a 1000 pts Tau list (with 1000 pts IG allies) I can see what you are getting at.

Blacksun filters are the best points I would ever spend in 6th but I would not use them on the FW as mine usually stay in the Devilfish until needed.

In defense of the flying frisbee of doom - never underestimate their effectiveness. I have had games where deep striking suits achieve nothing but the attached drone kills the target (usually due to dodgy dice rolling) and the higher toughness and initiative allows them to at least have a go at protecting weaker FW in combat.

I had, in one game, 6 FW firing rapid pulse at a warp spiders partial unit for 2 turns and not getting a wound. I got fed up and charged the devilfishes detached drones at them and killed two and caused the remaining one to run.

Also if a drone squadron deepstrikes it can cause confusion in the enemies deployment zone and don't forget that carbines cause pinning....

On the hammerhead - I was going with an Ion head/BC combo for the marine cracking and light armour with 2 XV88 singles for the heavier stuff. The XV88s took out 2 flyers with railgun sniping - the looks on the opponents faces was great to see :)

I may have digressed a little here ;)

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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1750

Post#14 » Feb 08 2013 08:44

Carrelio wrote:I somewhat explained the gun drone thing throughout the thread so far, but let me try and put it all together into one paragraph. Taking a gun drone instead of a fire warrior reduces the unit’s firing strength by 1 S5 AP5 shot per turn. If the unit gets caught up in combat and loses (read: always loses), the unit with a gun drone has a 42% chance of getting away while the unit of just fire warriors only has a 17% chance (using MEQ statistics and some very rough math). The unit might rally, but even if it doesn’t it will still get a turn or two of snapfire shooting unlike the unit that didn’t get away and just straight up died. In my eyes, a chance of something happening versus no chance of it happening for no real cost (decrease in firepower is negligible to the overall play style of the list) is an easy choice; always pick the option with the most opportunities for the least cost.

***maniacal laughter***
You sir, are a genius. For those still confused (and perhaps it was only me), Carrelio is taking advantage of a sentence on page 26 under Sweeping Advances:
When a Sweeping Advance is performed... In a unit of mixed Initiative characteristics, use the highest...[emphasis added]

Thus, in close combat, Fire Warriors can run away on the gun drone's initiative, which equals that of a space marine. I'm using this first chance I get.

Also, I understand your aversion to using FW models, but I think it would be a good experience to find someone who wouldn't mind you testing out Tetras (and let you proxy piranhas as tetras). It does make for a somewhat different playstyle, but it makes every single unit you have terribly scary.

As for the unit configuration, my personal favorite is:

Fast Attack - Tetra Team: 115 pts
1x Tetra; Targeting Array; Target Lock
1x Tetra; Targeting Array

Remember that since markerlights don't grant cover saves, you don't need a BSF on tetras.

As for everything else, I'm in general agreement. And I'm glad that you are able to deal with high armor with your suit configurations.

Cheers!

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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1500

Post#15 » Feb 08 2013 11:48

Alright, thanks for the replies so far everyone.

I have seen what the tetras can do, and it is impressive, but I just don't think it's something I'm going to have for myself.

Should I perhaps make an article on the drone thing? It's pretty common that people don't understand what is happening there, and I think it's a really obvious choice if you are already taking the shas'ui for LD8.

I am now continuing on to the 1500 point range. If you still have comments on one of the above lists, please specify which list you are commenting on (unless its a general point)

The 1500 point list is another tricky transition. 250 point decrease from the 1750 is a lot when you are already so happy with the list.

3 it is my opinion that troops in 3 transports is still necessary at these point levels., and I can't safely reduce their numbers any further while still expecting them to hold objectives.

I could reduce the heavy support a bit, dropping a hammerhead... and then I could either drop a broadside or a lose the Aurora'El and combine the 3 helios back into a single HQ option, with 40 points leftover to put back in to fire warriors.

Thoughts?

Some thoughts have been on my mind about the 2000 point list and the 1850 point list, based on the changes I made in the 1750 point list. Specifically, as the biggest change involved fire warriors, the thoughts revolve around the fire warriors. In the 2000 point list, by dropping the BSFs off the Shas’el, and reducing the fire warrior teams to 8 and a drone, I could fit in another Deathrain team leader... making 2 teams of 2 deathrains each with the ability split their fire (I could shoot at 4 vehicles a turn). The downsides are that the fire warriors have less total bodies on the field, meaning they are less offensive against hordes and can be wiped out completely more easily. The upsides are more flexible anti-tank and flyer coverage. Thoughts on this idea? It can also apply to the 1850 list.

Alternatively if I just drop the BSFs from where they are not entirely needed in the 2000 and 1850 list... I could free up 10-15 points that could go towards maybe buying my warlord FNP?
Last edited by Carrelio on Feb 08 2013 05:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1500

Post#16 » Feb 08 2013 04:41

Okay! On the 1500 point front I’ve got a couple lists, that I’d like your opinions on.

Option 1: Here, I dropped a hammerhead, and a broadside, which lowers my overall anti-tank and anti-horde abilities, but leaves my anti-MEQ/TEQ intact from the previous bracket.

HQ: Helios Pattern Shas’el – 127 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

HQ: Aurora Pattern Shas’el – 130 points
- Plasma rifle
- CIB
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones

Elites: 3 Deathrain Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuits – 161 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- TL missile pods
- Target array
- HWBSF
Suit 2:
- TL missile pods
- Target array
Suit 3:
- TL missile pods
- Flamer

Elites: Monat Helios Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuit – 77 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- Team leader
- HWMT

Elites: Monat Helios Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuit – 77 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- Team leader
- HWMT

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 8 Fire Warriors – 100 points
- 8 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Heavy Support: 2 Broadside Battlesuits – 203 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- Target Array
- HWDC
- 2 shield drones
- HWBSF
- HWTL
Suit 2:
- Target array

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Total: 1500 points


OR...


Option 2: Here I dropped a broadside and the second Shas’el, lumping the elite helios suits back into the HQ slot. Using the points leftover I was then able to bulk out the fire warrior squads a little more to make up for a little bit of the anti-horde abilities lost when I dropped the hammerhead.

HQ: Helios Pattern Shas’el – 127 points
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT
- HWDC
- 2 Shield drones
2 Helios Pattern Bodyguards – 164 points
Suit 1:
- Plasma rifle
- Fusion blaster
- Target array
- HWMT

Elites: 3 Deathrain Pattern XV8 Crisis Battlesuits – 166 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- TL missile pods
- Target array
- HWTL
- HWBSF
Suit 2:
- TL missile pods
- Target array
Suit 3:
- TL missile pods
- Flamer

Troops: 9 Fire Warriors – 113 points
- 9 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
-BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 9 Fire Warriors – 113 points
- 9 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
-BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Troops: 9 Fire Warriors – 113 points
- 9 pulse rifles
- Shas’ui
-BSF
- DC
- 1 Gun drones
Devilfish – 85 points
- Disruption pod

Heavy Support: 3 Broadside Battlesuits – 278 points
Suit 1:
- Team leader
- Target Array
- HWDC
- 2 shield drones
- HWBSF
- HWTL
Suit 2:
- Target array
Suit 3:
- Target lock

Heavy Support: Hammerhead – 170 points
- Railgun
- Burst cannons
- Disruption pod
- Multitracker
- Black sun filter

Total: 1499 points


Any comments much appreciated as always!

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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1500

Post#17 » Feb 08 2013 06:18

I think I prefer the first list: hammerheads are simply not a tank that needs to be doubled up on (doesn't hurt, but isn't necessary either). I can think of an alternative list, if you are not above using stealth suits. If you took the first list, and dropped the one of your commanders, as well as your helios suits, you would have ~284 points, which could buy you 6 stealthsuits, with targeting arrays [I don't usually use them on stealth suits, but you seem to feel the need for bs4 ;)] and two fusion blasters, for 40 points cheaper, as a "bodyguard" for your commander, giving him 2+ cover, maintaining the same number of fusion blasters at the same BS, and having plenty of shots to overwhelm 3+ armour. Plus, burst cannons are better against marines with 3+ armour than fusion blaster are against marines with 4+ cover. You can spend the rest of your points beefing up firewarrior squads, putting drones in the stealth squad, or wherever your heart desires, I suppose.
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Re: A List for Every Occasion - Current project: 1500

Post#18 » Feb 08 2013 07:25

It's not a compulsive need for BS4, it's just that if it doesn't have enough shots for weight of fire effectiveness (like the fire warriors do), then it just isn't going to be dealing enough damage for my tastes.

In general I find the stealth suits with fusion blasters to complicate the unit rather badly. They work at a different optimal range, against a different optimal target, and require support to function at a reasonable efficiency. If I went stealth suits I think I might go for all burst cannons supported by gun drones. However, I don't think this would be a wise idea. The burst cannon is better in some cases, but the fusion blaster has a wider window of opportunity. Specifically in a lot of cases, marines are going to ground to get their cover saves against a fusion blaster, where they wouldn't be against a burst cannon. As I noted above, I don't actually have to eliminate my targets, I just have to make sure they are paralyzed, and by forcing them to go to ground or die, I give them a catch 22 that I will always benefit from.

I do like stealths though. I think they are very cool and a very distinctly Tau type of warfare. I have an entirely stealthed army including shadowsun, 3 squads of stealth suits, and fire warriors in disruption pod devilfish.

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