Building to Face Nids

A review of past Cadre formations from tau'cyr before.
Herin
Shas
Posts: 9

Building to Face Nids

Post#1 » Mar 05 2013 09:11

A friend and I are planning a 1500 point match-up
I know he is planning to play Tyranids, and will run at least
2 Tyrants, 3 biovores, 3 hiveguards, 1 tervigon, 20 Termagants , 20 gargoyles, 2 zoanthropes, and 20 hormagants
I've thought about it and here's the list I came up with

Shas'o - PR, MP, Flamer, HW MT, HW BSF, SI
3 Fireknife Crisis Suits
2 Teams of 3 Stealth Suits
9 Firewarriors, Pulse Rifles with devilfish
2 teams of 9 firewarriors with Pulse Rifle and photon Grenades
2 squads of 10 kroot
6 pathfinders with transport
2 teams of Sniper drones squads
Railhead with burstcannons, disruption pod and multitracker

any suggestions?

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yazchar
Vespid
Posts: 99

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#2 » Mar 06 2013 12:30

I have a decent amount of experience playing Tyranids as it's my wife's army. Even if the lists are not always super optimized. I don't know what models you have access to and I know that's always an issue but these would be my suggestions.

What to drop:

On the HQ-
make him an El, not an O (you could take a TA instead if you wanted the 5 BS).
drop the SI
I could go either way on the flamer, in an ideal game I'd want to not really be in flamer range, though again, that is ideal and not always the case.

On the Fire Warriors
drop the photon grenades- you're losing assaults one way or another so you mind as well get it over with in one round so you can shoot at whatever wiped them out before they can assault again. These will only really help against the termagants anyway.

The SDT
I like SDTs, but against this list they might not be super useful, or at least not worth the 160 points.

Other changes/swaps and what to add

3 XV8 "Fireknifes"
I would disband this unit and run two of them with the Shas'El as bodyguards, and take TAs on them to up their BS. With a lot of the points you are saving, I'd take two shield drones.

Stealth Team
I would join these two together, take a team leader and two gun drones. To save points I might take the unit down to 5, as detailed below I think more missile pods might be useful, although this is a great anti infantry unit. Joining them together lets them be able to make better use of markerlights. ASAP, markerlight those hormagants and shoot them with these guys.

Pathfinders
I would add two more to make the squad 8 in size and I might even give the team leader some drones so that your first couple of wounds are (hopefully) not taking away markerlights.

If you have the points (and models)...

I have not gone through and calculated points, but in general this is what I would suggest, four things you could use. In this order...

1.) More missile pods If you can fit a unit of two or (better) three XV8 "deathrains" in, do it. Give them some shield drones and have them shot missiles at things from the back all game long. I find that the missile pod is one of the best weapons we have against Tyranids. It really threatens all of their elites (except Zoanthropes) with armor 4, and the biovore. My wife takes biovores and they suck. They are practically designed to destroy Tau/Eldar. For me, they are my first priority. If she hides them out of line of sight, I deep strike the missile pod team, if not I markerlight them and shoot all of the missile pods I have at them until they are gone, don't let them last more than two turns or you'll be out of scoring units...especially with 3 of them, yikes. Missile pods are the best weapon to use against them. Once they biovores are gone the long range of the pods allows you to be able to shoot them at any monstrous creature on the board for the most part and the high strength means they are more likely to wound, even if they don't penetrate armor. With the the HQ squad and 3 Deathrains you could hope maybe by turn 2 (more likely turn 3) to be putting 12 missiles into a single monstrous creature a turn that are all either BS4 or BS3 twinlinked. The drones on these two units will help you have the 3 suits in each squad by turn 3, hopefully.

2.) Another Railhead- Again, AP 4, large blast plus burst cannon. I would really be doing what I can to have each Railhead take out a little hoard unit a turn, they should be able to manage it. While they are removing units of termies, your missile pods/plasma is shooting at the Tervigon.

3.) BSFs on all XV8s and hammerheads.

4.) Last, I would try to get the FW leadership up to 8 with a Shas'ui. And a BSF might not be a bad idea either. And if possible, I'd try to get one more squad of 9 fire warriors.

Last thing...

The biggest thing I can tell you is to get rid of those biovores ASAP. They can be counted on to remove a unit of kroot or FW a turn, so they need to go. Next I'd prioritize the hormagants and then the gargoyles. I don't see hormagants too much but against Tau I can imagine they will be devastating. If you can get rid of those three units, you can really outrange and out maneuver him (assuming the Tyrants are not flying). Try to stay out of range of his Hiveguard or have your stealth team deal with them, or a unit of outflanking Kroot. Keep your XV8s away from the Hivegaurd.

This is all my humble opinion of course. Good luck!

gamma016
Shas
Posts: 78

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#3 » Mar 06 2013 05:01

I have yet to play tyranids with tau yet, but I have played them many times with imperial guard. I usually play a list similar to the list you will be playing, except with a couple more monstrous creatures. So this is my main advice.

#1 Find out if he normally uses a flyrant. This is crucial as it changes what you need to focus on completely. If he does not then you will most likely be playing against tyrants with 2+ saves.

#2 High Strength and low ap is key against MC's. The more guns you can take that will ID his multi wound models such as zoanthropes and biovores the better. I might suggest taking one squad of XV8's with plasma and fusion blaster. This will give you three shots that will ID zoanthropes and biovores, and six shots that will pierce armour. I feel this is the better option then deathrains just because of ap. Ultimately it is up to you, deathrains are more likely to survive, however they are less likely to kill off MC's.

#3 Stealth suits are not worth taking against this list in my opinion. They will get eaten alive by the hive guard. If you would still like to take them I have to agree with yazchar, put all six into one squad and take some gun drones with them. Or if you don't want to take fusion blasters on your XV8's you can put two on stealth suits and give them target locks.

#4 I would possibly think about switching you flamer to an airbursting fragment projector. This will help you take out more of those little mobs of gaunts with out waiting for them to be right in your face.

#5 A second railhead would defiantly be a good idea. Pie plates for the little guys and APing and possibly IDing the big guys.

#6 Filling out your fire warrior and pathfinder squads would help out a lot. You want as many guns shooting as possible before they get to you.

#7 What is your plan with the kroot? If you don't have a real plan for them I'd think about using their points somewhere else.

#8 I like the idea of using sniper drones against tyranids. The high strength and low ap is perfect for dissing out unsaved wounds to MC's plus the extra marker lights are always nice.

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Ell'ran
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1117

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#4 » Mar 07 2013 02:12

gamma016 wrote:#8 I like the idea of using sniper drones against tyranids. The high strength and low ap is perfect for dissing out unsaved wounds to MC's plus the extra marker lights are always nice.


Additionally, you can try to pin any units that are out of synapse. Surprisingly effective against swarms because of their low Ld.

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nor'od-alex
Shas
Posts: 131

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#5 » Mar 07 2013 03:20

plus, the fluff would say drones are an especially efficient way of killing 'nids.
sum commenta, ergo sum idotica.

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yazchar
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Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#6 » Mar 07 2013 01:07

My issue with Sniper Drone Teams against Tyranids is that I don't think they'll last more than two rounds, he'll probably be able to assault them on round 3, though they will hold up great against his shooting. In addition to this, they aren't very mobile which means you might be hard pressed to get shoots into his hive guard and biovores if they are behind something that blocks LOS. Add on top of this the 160 points they cost and I don't think they are worth it for nids, though against something slower that wants to have a shoot out with you like Necrons or Ultramarines/Imperial Fists, they perform great!

For a little bit of math hammer fun, remember, you'll get 3 hits between the two units of SDTs a turn (say on his Tervigon). You'll wound on a 4+ which means you'll do 1.5 wounds a turn assuming he has no cover save, which is not hard for monstrous creatures to get in 6th. 3 Deathrains will get four or five hits a turn and wound on 3+ of which 2 to 3 will wound so you're likely to do 1 wound a turn and cover won't matter. Honestly neither are that great but from my experience against tyranids things with more mobility last longer because you'll want to stay away from things, so I think over the course of the game those Deathrains are going to last longer, they can operate at 36 inches like the SDT but they can also move away. The SDT has that great cover save but sadly it will have to stay still to shoot effectively and if he knows what he's doing he'll come right at it. I know Ell'ran didn't tell you to count on pinning he just said you could try, but really, I wouldn't factor that in at all.

What gamma016 said about things like the plasma and fusion blaster being the best against MCs is right I think. For me though I would not want to be within 12 inches of a hive tyrant with my suits unless I knew I could finish him off, so like if he was down to 3 wounds or so I might risk it.

You should try both out if you can get multiple games in and see what works better for you. I also think terrain would be a big factor. With less terrain the SDT might do pretty good as there would be nowhere to hide from it (since it can't really move around to get better shots) and not as many cover saves against it.

-------

On a different note, something I noticed about your opponent's list is that he is sort of lacking in synapse, not in terms of numbers but in terms of battlefield roles for each synapse unit. What I mean by that is this. Usually when I play tyranids there are 3 sections of the army...

1.) The wave that starts as close to your deployment zone as possible and comes straight at you for two turns until it starts to hit you (this includes most hoard critters, walking tyrants, carnifexs, etc)
2.) The wave that comes up under your feet on a 2+ on turn 2 (gargoyles, raveners, trygons) and/or hits you because it infiltrated (genestealers)
3.) The group that hangs back and shoots (hiveguard, biovores).

Each section needs synapse, and in his list he really only has synapse for the first section but he has forces from all three sections. Now, he could have his tervigon hang back near the biovores and hive guard which is what he'll probably do (i'd think), and that's good news for you because then that thing won't be in your face and the termies it makes will have further to go to get to you, though you can probably kiss any objectives in his deployment zone goodbye! If he deep strikes the gargoyles on turn 2 I don't see them having much synapse support so some FW shooting could easily drive them away (if it doesn't kill them all, those things die so easily), so I'm guessing he'll use them with the hormagants as a wall with the rest of the advancing wave which means I don't think you'll have to worry about that no.2 wave I mentioned above.

That's just speculation of how I think he'd play it out based on what he has. Like I said I play Tyranids often but I've never seen a list lacking in things like shooty warriors (to hang back and provide synapse) and Trygon Primes (to give synapse to deep strikers) so I'm sort of curious how this list will play out with his synapse creatures. Be sure to let us know!

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Ell'ran
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1117

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#7 » Mar 07 2013 03:51

nor'od-alex wrote:plus, the fluff would say drones are an especially efficient way of killing 'nids.


yazchar wrote:In addition to this, they aren't very mobile which means you might be hard pressed to get shoots into his hive guard and biovores if they are behind something that blocks LOS.


I've used an Ion Cannon to decent effect against nids in the past.

Herin
Shas
Posts: 9

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#8 » Mar 07 2013 03:54

wow thanks for all the responses they've really given me something to think about.

after a bit of recon his twin tyrants are going to both have 2 twin-linked brainleech worms (that's 12 str 6 shots per model, reroll to hit)
one is going to be flying the other is going to have 2+ armor and tyrant guards.
the biovores are probably going to be out of synapse the entire game, since they still shoot if they fail Leadership and if they miss they leave sporemines on the field.
his hiveguard are probably going to be behind any cover he can find, because they ignore line of sight,cover, stealth and shrouded.plus they have str 8 weapons. even then they're still tough 6 with 4+ armor.
his tervigon is a going to have biomancy , adrenal sacks, and poison glands so the gant spawns will be even more dangerous.
his zoanthropes are going to be extra annoying str5ap3 blast is nasty and 3+ invul save

I'm most worried about his monstrous creatures, most of which are toughness 6 with 3+ armor and have 4-6 wounds apiece .

what am I doing with the kroot? anything I can, I'm still a new player and my army hasn't been flushed out yet. I have only 30 firewarriors and I'm going to be fielding most of them. It would probably be a good idea to drop the grenades and get those combats out of the way faster.

I like the idea of the airburst, I had chosen the flamer because I had the points and could afford nothing else. I figured the D3 hits on a charge could be worth it.

D-Rains are nice but ineffective against 3+ armor and the volume of shots are low I can use markerlights to increase BS but not number of shots, If those MC get within range I need them to die ASAP.

as far as the stealth suits go I was planning to deep strike them to take out the hiveguards or biovores. Keeping them as separate units would allow me to go after different targets.

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Meyen
Shas'Saal
Posts: 52

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#9 » Mar 11 2013 07:41

yazchar wrote:The SDT
I like SDTs, but against this list they might not be super useful, or at least not worth the 160 points.


Isn't it still 80 pts? The 80 points covers up to 3 teams.

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Lynu'Re Tash
Shas
Posts: 54

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#10 » Mar 11 2013 08:51

SDTs are 80 points a unit, but you can have up to 3 in the FOC slot. A full 3 unit group would be 240 pts.
55 seems like a rather random number, why not 50 or 75?

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Chris in the socal
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 271

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#11 » Mar 11 2013 12:53

My goal whenever I play nids is to have as many S5AP5 shots as possible. I also recommend getting rid of your SDT for more Railhead or IonHeads. Pros of rail heads are the versitility of the gun to pieplate or solid shot. But ioncannons can shreed through the big nids with the increased shots. Also spend the points on the fragmentation projector.

One thing I love is the stealth team, but then I build a team I bring 2 drones a suit. Reason pinning when playing bids if you can pin it will. Slow them down.

As for flammers I'm in a love hate. This means you have to close enough for them to assault you,and even if you hit and run they my still be able to charge you.

Just my opinion but I have had great success against Nids.
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Meyen
Shas'Saal
Posts: 52

Re: Building to Face Nids

Post#12 » Mar 11 2013 05:42

Lynu'Re Tash wrote:SDTs are 80 points a unit, but you can have up to 3 in the FOC slot. A full 3 unit group would be 240 pts.


Ah the confusion was on my part. Thanks for the clarity and sorry for the small distraction.

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