Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
moebius
Shas
Posts: 34

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#19 » Jun 04 2013 09:20

ok, uprgading ubuntu to 13.04 (LO 4.0.2.2) now it's working properly :)

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1092

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#20 » Jun 11 2013 09:36

New version : v11 (2013-06-11)
Upgrades:
-New Sheet : Cumulative Shooting
-New Sheet : Special tables

Cumulative Shooting
Evaluate effect of 4 differents shootings together on an unit, like Crysis team with mixed weapons, Devastator units, GK Inquisitors teams...

BEWARE : Statistics are more accurate with low shot counts (due to the method of combining the shooting of the different units)
Don't expect 100 % accuracy if total shots for all units are > 20 with good base chance. Gives best results if Unit 2 and 4 have lower average than Unit 1 or 3.
I put an "Accuracy" indicator for shooting on a non-vehicle unit.
Rule of thumb is : if the "All units" curves don't falls to 0 before 20 wounds, they are underestimated.
To help accuracy, use Unit 1 and 2 to store the best units, and Unit 1' and 2' to store the lowest efficient units.
To ignore one unit, set his count to zero.

Special
Some miscellaneous tables :
- Markerlight hits (see statistics up to 10 hits, enough for 12xBS3 markerlights)
- Jokaero Upgrades chances per Jokaero count.

To Do
I continue to work on adding full functionnal templates.

Rending is suspected to be underestimated in the AP2 chance.
Since it need to mix "to wound" result with "saves" results, rework is needed on the save feature to fully implement this.

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Lyi'ot
Por'O
Por'O
Posts: 2730

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#21 » Sep 19 2013 10:09

Given the quality of this effort, and the absolute necessity of understanding numbers in this hobby, I have not only moved this thread to Tactica, I've also stickied it. Thank you for the excellent resource, Kael'yn.

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1092

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#22 » Sep 20 2013 01:19

Many thanks Lyi'ot

I too believe on math understanding, but statistics and probabilties are not everyone cup of tea. So was the purpose of my tool.

About the tool:
Many things are implemented, but the simple tool I've made at the start turns to be a little encumbered. And the spreadsheet have some limitations.
So I've started to think about a new tool, maybe self-executable and not a spreadsheet.

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De'terra
Fio'Vre
Fio'Vre
Posts: 554

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#23 » Sep 20 2013 04:42

A tool like that would earn my support.
I would even go as far to state that you would certainly receive some donations for that if released.
I know I would :)

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ARC'Thunder
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 850

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#24 » Sep 20 2013 09:34

I wholly agree with De'terra.

If it manages to keep the customization of the spreadsheet, but with even better usability I would be on that in a heartbeat. That kind of tool is far more useful than any army list program out there.

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1092

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#25 » Sep 22 2013 08:20

Thanks to all for your support !

De'terra wrote:I would even go as far to state that you would certainly receive some donations for that if released.

Not expecting that !
As I code for pleasure in my free time, not for money, receiving donations will make me a little anxious about releasing a perfect tool...



And as a treat for anyone wanting to know how the new tool may seems, this is an idea of the interface (still coding and the interface is not functionnal)
Image
(Data is painted onto the blank interface)

Planned usage:
- Select gunner/weapon and target (or creating/editing ones), with their stats (and special rules to take into account, like twin linked, poison, feel no pain, ...)
- Add them in a result set (one set for one target type basically), so multiple gunners/weapons can shoot at the same target and their result combined
- Presenting results with hit/wound/save details
- Showing stat results curves (different colors for different results sets)
- Showing stat results tables

Planned features:
- Using a text-based database for easy-correction/edition
- Save a match for further edition
- Export results as text / html / bbcode / image
- Implement some secondary tools (blast template coverage, dice rolls generator, ...)

Status:
At the moment, I am implementing the "hit+wound+save" base % to wound on toughness models (and armor-based ones)
Then, the statistic analysis will be coded.
Interface will come after.
Don't know how long it will take, because I have a new job since the 1st September that takes me a lot of free time.

Comments and ideas are welcome to help me refining graphical interface and features.

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De'terra
Fio'Vre
Fio'Vre
Posts: 554

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#26 » Sep 22 2013 08:35

I have not been this excited over a Warhammer related app since battlescribe mobile...

As for features, I do have a few ideas.

A small thing but one that would be extremely helpful is to display the results according to range.
So for example, a Crisis suits with 2 plasma rifles.
Damage at >12", <12".

Following up with this, the possibility to calculate results until target death or for X number of turns.
As with my previous example, the result for a suit with 2 plasma rifles for the 1ste turn is at >12" , the following at <12" and then overwatch results.
I have always made these calculations so that I could have an idea over a general game of what to expect.
This could be a bit tricky to implement and if your tool should be functioning as is, then there is nothing stopping me to quickly do this myself.
Just a thought.

In any case, I wish you the best of luck with this.

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Lyi'ot
Por'O
Por'O
Posts: 2730

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#27 » Sep 22 2013 08:39

That looks excellent! Like De'terra said, I wouldn't mind donating to such a project; the utility is manifest.

I've got two very small suggestions:
It would be a way to simulate markerlights. I know that it'd be easy enough to modify BS and Cover Saves, but I also think that approach creates a mental shortcut that ignores the general half-chance-ahood of a BS3 markerlight delivery system (if that makes sense).

It'd also be nice to have a way to export a solid graph of the numbers, like as a .jpg -- I know that our tacticas would be well served by some graphical numerical analysis!

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Biddo
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 99

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#28 » Sep 22 2013 08:42

Kael'yn wrote:statistics and probabilties are not everyone cup of tea. So was the purpose of my tool.

They are definitely not my cup of tea :) so i'm really looking forward to this tool. I think the interface looks good. Thank you for working on such a great tool for the community!
Want your crisis suits to have hands? try my guide

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1092

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#29 » Oct 02 2013 01:03

Some advance on UI along with the database managing (the more the database is complex, the more it takes for things to be working)
Image
At this time, I load my database and can fill them in the tool, with stats.
I have also made a basic statistic analysis tool to test the result page formatting (hope it will be in the next update for comments)

Gunner and weapons have been combined rather than assigning only one weapon per gunner. So you can set as gunner
- 12xFirewarriors, each with a pulse rifle (weapon list may show pulse rifle)
- 3xCrysis, each with 1plasma and 1twin linked missile pod (weapon list may show "plasma rifle, twin linked MP")
- 1xDevastator unit with 2 lascanons, 2 heavy bolters and 1 bolt pistol (weapon list may show :"lascanon, lascanon, heavy bolter, heavy bolter, bolt pistol")
- 1xPathfinder unit with 6xrailrifles shots and 2xpulse carbine shots (weapon list may show :"3 railrifles,pulse carbine")
Each weapon may have its own BS (example: snapshots for heavy weapons, like moving broadsides with HRR and plasma rifles)

@Lyi'ot
Adding markerlight may be tricky. But since the roster can manage combined shooting, adding a markerlight gunner then evaluate BS/cover modifier for the next gunner may be added to evaluate more finely the purpose of "shooting a markerlight then shoot" vs "keeping the markerlight for a better use because shooting is already good".
I will keep the idea on the work.

The result panel will show the details in html format, but I plan for people to see it too as pure text or BBcode text/html copy-pastable text for including in forums/web pages. Image export of graphs and maybe all the results is planned too.

@De'terra
A set will be a group of gunner-target couples with a global "Set" result and graphs (by default one set is used for each couples, but you can add more gunner-target couple in a set to combine their result in the same set)
All sets are then compared to each others...
So evaluating with range can be done by adding them in two sets rather than in one in the roster (one for a range, one for another)

In your example:
Set 1: One suit @BS3, 2xPR with 1 shot (>12ps)
Set 2: One suit @BS3, 2xPR with 2 shots (<12ps)
Set 3: One suit @BS1, 2xPR with 2 shots (overwatch)
The tool then will show the 3 sets results to compare

It may also work with a Deathrain commander in your 3xBurning Eye team:
Set 1:36-24ps ; Set 2:24-12ps ; Set 3:12-0ps ; Set4: Overwatch
Set 1: 1xShas'o @BS5, 2xMP with 2 shots
Set 2: 3x suits @BS3, each with 2xPR with 1 shot
Set 2: 1xShas'o @BS5, 2xMP with 2 shots
Set 3: 3x suits @BS3, each with 2xPR with 2 shots
Set 3: 1xShas'o @BS5, 2xMP with 2 shots
Set 4: 3x suits @BS1, each with, 2xPR with 2 shots
Set 4: 1xShas'o @BS1, 2xMP with 2 shots
The tool then will show the 4 sets results to compare

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Lyi'ot
Por'O
Por'O
Posts: 2730

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#30 » Oct 02 2013 01:05

Thank you for keeping us up-to-date, Kael'yn. I am super, super excited for this project.

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1092

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#31 » Oct 11 2013 07:06

Small update since the last

UI preview
Image

No big graphic changes here, but now 95% of roster functions are working: selecting gunner, weapons, targets, ... and adding gunner and targets to the roster.
The next big move will be the computing of shooting itself (basic first then with taking into account special rules and D6 characteristics ).
After, I will show the stats in the result panel (hidden here under the 2nd frame)
Then I will add the ability to create/edit gunner/weapons/targets and save them in the database.
And the tool will be ready for beta testing.

The 2nd frame shown at the right is a (working) generic statistic computing tool. I use it to preview the result of statistic study in a HTML style.
The diagram is auto-generated from the statistics results (can be drawn in multiple colors, line styles, with or without dots, and as curves or histogram) and added as image in the HTML page at the moment.

If people has idea about result layout, you can send me ideas/examples/drawings of the result layout you want:
-Where to put table, image
- horizontal/vertical table
- details of computing infos
- ...
all the kind of things you will prefer.

(I am confident to put many thing in the final tool, so let me know what will be useful to see in the result)

@Lyi'ot
Don't be too excited.
I have some free time at the moment, but I fear this will not last and so the pace of advance may slow in the future.
But I have good confidence in a beta release before the end of year.

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De'terra
Fio'Vre
Fio'Vre
Posts: 554

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#32 » Oct 11 2013 07:42

Woah! :biggrin:

I am going to have a field day when this comes out.
The "detailed" statistics such as graphs should not be on the main window
I would put those on a seperate window. Not everyone would be interested in that, but the functionality is awesome.

But that is my view.
Other then that, it looks really intuïtive. Nice job.
I am certainly willing to volunteer. I have access to a wide variaty of machines so that might help with any deployment issues.

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ARC'Thunder
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 850

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#33 » Oct 11 2013 09:22

Looking great so far!

Until I actually have something to test and toy with for myself, I don't think I have any grounds to suggest anything about the UI. But whenever the Beta's released I could come up with something. Or I'll just end up dealing with it without realizing it.

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1092

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#34 » Nov 16 2013 03:16

For helping people waiting for the new tool, this is the generic statistic tool I made for testing purposes
It is provided "as-is", since development on this small tool is stopped now

Download
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ocwy8okofoqwoi9/GStat.zip

Help
To Hit - To Wound/Glancing/Penetrating values:
3+ = at least 3 on a D6
50% or 0.5 or .5 = half of time
3+' = 3+ on a D6, reroll "1" results
3+* = 3+ on a D6, reroll failed results
50%* = half of time, one reroll (in fact, equal to 75%)
2+*5+ = reroll failed, new success on 5+ (like BS7 hit chance) (same as 2+'5+)

Save - Protect values:
- , 6+ , 5+ , 4+ , 3+ , 2+ as usual
Protect is an additionnal save like Feel No Pain

Count
Number of shots

GUI view
Image

Small infos on the incoming advanced tool:
I changed the roster to have a tree instead of a list, to see stats for each weapon, units, combined shooting on a target or a comparison between targets.

At this time the tool is working quite well, but only with premade gunners, weapons and target.
I need to implement the registering of new objects and the save/load roster ability.

So the next time, a beta version will be provided, hopefully.

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1092

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#35 » Dec 12 2013 02:38

Some fresh news:

Even if my job eats a little too much of my days, the program takes a good step ahead from the last time:
Now statistics are shown for any toughness based targets
Need some refining on the results formatting too.

Next step will get the vehicle statistics in the results
Then the ability to save roster to be reloaded and modified later
And adding custom units instead of those pre-defined

Hope to release a working beta version in January 2014

A screenshot may worth more than some words...
Note that it was not edited and can show any combined result for any of the gunner/weapons/targets in the roster

Image

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 1092

Re: Mathhammer & Stathammer tool

Post#36 » Feb 14 2014 05:38

My Fio'la have been working less these kai'rotaa so the mathhammer/stathammer tool is a little far to be fully functionnal.
But it working with enough features to become interesting to share.

NOTE:
The UI was reworked to avoid a "all in one" view.
Now adding/changing roster items is made by pop-ups.


What you can do without major problems:
- You can select toughness based targets and add gunners against them. You can add weapons to gunners too.
So you can see their statistics (each or combined) on shooting
- The database need to be edited by hand or with the table editor or a CSV text table editor (like Excel or Calc) to add permanently items. See doc_Database_Format.txt for further infos
- There are some special rules already implemented

Not fully functionnal:
- You can modify the item you added in the roster.
- Changing roster items for others (remove+add works better)
- Database editing and saving (keep a backup of the databases!)
- most special rules are not fully taken into account (like Tesla, ...) and some have not been implemented

Not working:
No saving/loading of your roster
No reordering your roster
No armor (vehicle) based stats
Selecting the features to be shown in results page

Not implemented, but planned:
Results export (BBCode, images, ...)
xDy statistics for weapon shots, strength and AP

Bonus Tools
Generic stats (previously released as stand-alone)
Template statistics (stand alone tool at this time, but maybe will be implemented in the future)
Database editor (for people having problems to edit tabulated text tables in Excel/Calc)

So, here the alpha_001 release of StatPy.
(It's a temporary name: it does statistics and written in python. If anyone has a bright idea to share...):
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ub5v7fb1f92bg02/StatPy_alpha001.zip

Comments and ideas welcome (bugs and errors happens and are worked in by myself, so don't pick me on them for alpha version)

Keep up the good work Kael'yn, however please remember that red is reserved for the use of moderators in censuring particularly outstanding (not the good kind) posts.
~Por'vre Tier.

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