Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

A review of past Tactics by commanders during the First, Second, Third & Fourth Phase Expansion.
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Jaksie Kerra
Shas
Posts: 9

Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#1 » Mar 06 2017 04:16

So, First of all I hope that this is the right place to put this. Now, on to my question. I read in a FAQ that Crisis suits are able to take two of the same weapon that are not considered twin linked. Does that also apply to Suits with three of the same weapon? As an example, could I outfit a Crisis suit with three missile pods that are not twin linked as long as I pay the 15 points per missile pod? Also, I am semi-familiar with the rules on firing one weapon per turn, so even if it were a possibility to outfit a Crisis suit with three of the same weapons, would I be able to use all of them? Thanks in advance, as I am new to Tau, and with Chaos, this particular rules question never came up.

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Kakapo42
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
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Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#2 » Mar 06 2017 04:20

Unless something has changed in the 7th edition rules, then the answer is no, you cannot fire three weapons at once on a crisis suit. Normally the limit is one weapon, but the built-in multi-trackers crisis battlesuits currently have increase this limit to two.

So while there is nothing I am aware of stopping you from putting three of the same weapon on a crisis suit, you would gain no advantage from it in a game. You can however mount a twin-linked weapon and a single version of the same weapon on a crisis suit, and fire both at once.
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Jaksie Kerra
Shas
Posts: 9

Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#3 » Mar 06 2017 04:36

That is what I figured. I have never seen a Crisis suit with three of the same weapon, and I'm probably not smart enough to find something like that out first, so I probably could have used deductive reasoning to figure that one out. Thanks, mate.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Posts: 2908

Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#4 » Mar 06 2017 04:37

Yes you could take three Missile Pods. However you would never be able to use more than two so you'd waste 15p. :D

You could take a regular Missile Pod and a Twin-Linked Missile Pod though. It uses all of your 3 slots and are effectively 3 Missile Pod bitz on your Crisis Suit as well.
It's just less efficient than just taking another Crisis Suit and giving him that Missile Pod.

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Jaksie Kerra
Shas
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Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#5 » Mar 06 2017 04:50

So I want to kill a land raider from as far away as possible without using broadsides or a devilfish. I want the mobility of the crisis suit. So, that being said, I am trying to glance a landraider to death using MP's and the PEN for that +1 Str on the tank hunter. I know there are better ways to do it, but I am hard headed and I want to do it this way. But is there anything I could add to it to do this more effectively?

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#6 » Mar 06 2017 05:46

Personally, I have a unit of 3 crisis suits that each have a twin linked missile pod and a plasma rifle. These weapons let me glance most vehicles to death and when I can't avoid closer ranges the plasma rifle has rapid fire giving me 2 twin linked missile pod shots and two plasma rifle shots. The high strength is really good against tougher infantry.
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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#7 » Mar 07 2017 02:29

Jaksie Kerra wrote:So I want to kill a land raider from as far away as possible without using broadsides or a devilfish. I want the mobility of the crisis suit. So, that being said, I am trying to glance a landraider to death using MP's and the PEN for that +1 Str on the tank hunter. I know there are better ways to do it, but I am hard headed and I want to do it this way. But is there anything I could add to it to do this more effectively?
+1 Str for Tank Hunter was a couple editions ago. Tank Hunter now gives you rerolls on armor pen. You will be unable to even glance a Landraider type armor with MPs.

Trying to kill a Landraider with devilfish (Firewarriors with EMP?) won't really work either. Troops can now only throw one grenade per phase. So you would get a single grenade in the shooting phase, and a single grenade in the assault phase. Unfortunately the Devilfish is not an assault transport, so you are unable to charge the turn you deploy your Firewarriors anyway.

Broadsides have also changed since last edition. The Heavy Railrifle is now S8 AP1 instead of S10 AP1. The broadside can glance the Landraider, but only on 6s.

As always, the best ways to deal with Landraiders is fusion suits, Hammerheads, and Stormsurges now.

Now for your original post topic. You can have three weapons if you want, but you can only ever shoot two. I have never really seen any commander bring three different kinds of weapons, or a third weapon that was "just in case". The crisis suit is customizable enough both in kit and troop size to not require this.

You could Twin Link one weapon and have a second single weapon for more accurate shots if you'd like. It is, in essence, just a 5pt upgrade if you were already taking two weapons to begin with. Idk, I've never really done that before and I don't see many people do it either. Most lists are tight on points anyway, so that extra 5pt is kind of pricey in its own way.
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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#8 » Mar 07 2017 04:10

Just did a quick spreadsheet... if you look purely on the shooting power, having a twinlinked and a single weapon is worth the extra 5 pts, unless you raise your BS to 5 or more. It really shines at snapshooting, but it's only marginaly better at normal BS3.

Balistic skill |  hits double  |  hits single+TL |   hits/crisis difference | (adjusted by pts cost)
BS1             |       0.33    |        0.47     |            +41%          |         +29%
BS2             |       0.67    |        0.89     |            +33%          |         +21%
BS3             |       1.00    |        1.25     |            +25%          |         +14%
BS4             |       1.33    |        1.56     |            +16%          |         +06%
BS5             |       1.67    |        1.81     |            +08%          |         -02%

That's ofc before you add other factors such as wounds... It's nothing game breaking, but it might be useful on deepstrinking double fusion crisis, against invisible units or some pure assault armies(are there any?) or just as listbuilding fill.

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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#9 » Mar 07 2017 07:12

Gragagrogog wrote:Just did a quick spreadsheet... if you look purely on the shooting power, having a twinlinked and a single weapon is worth the extra 5 pts, unless you raise your BS to 5 or more. It really shines at snapshooting, but it's only marginaly better at normal BS3.

Balistic skill |  hits double  |  hits single+TL |   hits/crisis difference | (adjusted by pts cost)
BS1             |       0.33    |        0.47     |            +41%          |         +29%
BS2             |       0.67    |        0.89     |            +33%          |         +21%
BS3             |       1.00    |        1.25     |            +25%          |         +14%
BS4             |       1.33    |        1.56     |            +16%          |         +06%
BS5             |       1.67    |        1.81     |            +08%          |         -02%

That's ofc before you add other factors such as wounds... It's nothing game breaking, but it might be useful on deepstrinking double fusion crisis, against invisible units or some pure assault armies(are there any?) or just as listbuilding fill.


Counterfire Defence System costs 5p and gives you Overwatch at BS2, which is what most of your snapshooting will be in normal circumstances. That would bring you up from 0.47 hits to 0.67 at the same cost. For other purposes, I'd personally spend those points on markerlights instead.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#10 » Mar 07 2017 07:25

I agree with Unicornsilovethem. The buff is only minimal (even if the percentage indicates otherwise). Do that for a 3 suit team and you'd spend 15p which would be better invested in an additional Markerlight Drone or Pathfinder usually.

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Jaksie Kerra
Shas
Posts: 9

Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#11 » Mar 07 2017 02:57

Wow, okay. There goes that. But very helpful with all of the spreadsheets and such. Guess I will either have to invest in Broadsides, a Railhead, or a Crisis suicide team. I'm facing Blood Angels that have a very cc oriented list so range is my friend here even more so than usual. I just do not see a fusion blaster team surviving killing this thing. So between Broadsides and the Railhead. I much prefer the Broadside models to that of the Railhead, but the Hammerhead seems to be the better option.

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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#12 » Mar 07 2017 03:34

Jaksie Kerra wrote:I just do not see a fusion blaster team surviving killing this thing.

Does he need to? A regular 2xfusion suit costs 52 points and a Land Raider something like 250. You could buy five suits who are essentially guaranteed to blow it up, and it will be an even trade. That's without considering the fact that his CC Terminators are now stranded on his side of the board, where they can't do anything useful.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2908

Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#13 » Mar 08 2017 02:57

Jaksie Kerra wrote:Wow, okay. There goes that. But very helpful with all of the spreadsheets and such. Guess I will either have to invest in Broadsides, a Railhead, or a Crisis suicide team. I'm facing Blood Angels that have a very cc oriented list so range is my friend here even more so than usual. I just do not see a fusion blaster team surviving killing this thing. So between Broadsides and the Railhead. I much prefer the Broadside models to that of the Railhead, but the Hammerhead seems to be the better option.

Depending on the BA list you might want to invest in intercepting units instead of long range ones though. :D

Usually BA get with Drop Pods in your face real quick (Flamer+Heavy Flamer+Combi Flamer Tacticals and 2xMelta+2xMelta Pistol Assault are pretty much a given in most BA lists that use a CAD). On top of that they now have two formations that let them assault from deep strike (Sanguinary Guard + Dante or Sanguinor or 3 Terminator units usually the melee ones with SS/TH).
Next we have the the Lost Brotherhood detachment that is basically Deathcompany only and grants a 6" move before the game begins.
There's also the Lucifer Task Force which is a Landraider and 3 Predators all with Scout and Fast.
And the Chapter Ancients formation (3-5 Furioso/Librarian/regular Dreadnought who can all either shoot twice or pile in and attack once per game).

So I argue range is something you really don't need against BA. Against pretty much every porper BA list he'll be within 24" when the game begins. More likely within 10"-15" actually. Overwatch and Interceptor is your friend against assaulty Marines, not long range. That's something you'd need against other shooty lists like Eldar and Astra Militarum. ;)


Unicornsilovethem wrote:
Jaksie Kerra wrote:I just do not see a fusion blaster team surviving killing this thing.

Does he need to? A regular 2xfusion suit costs 52 points and a Land Raider something like 250. You could buy five suits who are essentially guaranteed to blow it up, and it will be an even trade. That's without considering the fact that his CC Terminators are now stranded on his side of the board, where they can't do anything useful.

^ this.
Just play 3 units consisting of only one suit each with double Fusion Blaster. That should let you deal with anything you can't get rid of with S7 spam, makes counterfire less punishing and makes it more likely for them arrive early (3 rolls instead of 1 roll for a bigger unit). AV14 really isn't that common anymore these days so you rarely really need Fusion Blaster tbh.

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Jaksie Kerra
Shas
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Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#14 » Mar 08 2017 11:08

He doesn't use drop pods, or hold anything in reserve, or use formations. Silly, but that's how he likes to do it I guess. It isn't a super mechanized list. Just a couple of land raiders and predators. I feel like he is going to abuse the av 14 and my lack of things that can reliably kill it. I would rather them survive because I'm somewhat OCD when it comes to losing units. I know it happens, but I try to keep as few losses as possible. I guess fusion blasters would be the way to go, huh?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2908

Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#15 » Mar 08 2017 01:16

So it's the most untypical BA list one can think of...to such a degree that it's barely BA anymore....LOL! :D

I don't think you have to fear anything in that case. Drop some double FB Crisis near the Landraider and spam S7 for the Predators. Possibly with Tank Hunter from a Buff'Vre.

Don't worry about losing Crisis monats. They are suicide units and are very worth their points. Just look at the usual BA player who throw 135p units at enemy AV regularly. Sure they come in turn 1 (if you want to) and are more precise with their deep strike but they also have less Melta range. They usually die as well and are taken just for that one task. It's a proven strategy and works well.

It's not important IF you lose a unit but rather HOW you lose it. You will lose units no matter what you do. Learn to work with it and make their sacrifice worth it at least.

Yes Fusion Blaster Crisis are THE way for Tau to deal with AV14. AV13 can be dealt with mass S7 dakka however hoping for 6s has always a bitter taste. AV12 however is safe to deal with S7 dakka.

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Jaksie Kerra
Shas
Posts: 9

Re: Crisis suits with three of the same weapon

Post#16 » Mar 10 2017 11:59

Quite the insightful post, Panzer.

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