Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Vio'ra Mal'caor
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Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#1 » May 16 2017 04:59

I was rereading the Tau codex, and I saw that burst cannons would be a great choice for a Crisis. However, when I looked online to get more info, I noticed many people were slamming burst cannons, saying they were terrible. I asked myself this: Why would people say that??? Back in 5th edition, everyone in my local gaming community said that Burst cannons were the bees knees. However, now they seem to have been passed up in favour of Flamers and Cyclic Ion Cannons. Why??? (replies are needed),
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Kakapo42
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#2 » May 16 2017 05:27

Well, there is a new edition coming up, so who knows what that will do to them.

However, for the current edition, the big problem with burst cannons is they don't really bring that much to the table that other units can't. Finding S5 AP5 shots is something that the Tau have never struggled with - Firewarriors and Stealth teams can both bring them in abundance (as can Pathfinders, but they're usually better used for their markerlights), and any vehicle in the Tau arsenal can crank out at least a few S5 shots from its secondary weapons.

Low AP shots capable of defeating 3+ and 2+ saves, however, are very rare, as are template weapons (unless you want to risk overcharging), and Crisis teams are one of the few platforms these are available on. Thus, it makes sense to use Crisis Teams for these kind of support weapons (and missile pods for long-range fire support), while leaving horde-busting S5 firepower to other units.

That isn't to say burst cannons don't have a place on crisis suits, they can be useful in certain situations or if you're building an army with no infantry in it, but if you start using more non-battlesuit units then they start to become redundant quickly.
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Bloodknife92
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#3 » May 16 2017 06:10

With how shooting is changing in the new edition, it kinda looks like volume of shots will take precedence over strength of shots, given that most weapons will still only be rolling 3s to wound. The only appealing difference would be the AP values, but I, personally, would simply want a bucket of S5 AP0 dice for tactical marines and the like.
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TauMan
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#4 » May 16 2017 08:37

I agree with Bloodknife93 that 8th edition maybe the see the rebirth of the burst cannon. Especially now that twin linked means double the shots.

Of course back in the days of 4th and 5th editions, a burst cannon and flamer combo on a crisis suit team would vaporize IG, Orks and Nids. And my stealth suits destroyed more Chimeras and Leman Russ tanks from behind with burst cannons.

Take a wait and see approach, as June 2017 seems to be month for release of 8th edition.

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Panzer
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#5 » May 16 2017 10:58

Basically what Kakapo said about the current edition and what Bloodknife said about 8th edition.
I can see a Crisis Suit with lots of Gun Drones and a possible Drone Controller be a good choice in 8th but we'll have to wait until we know specific rules.

Also as addition: S5 AP5 does nothing S7 AP4 wouldn't do better currently and we have both plenty so there's no reason not to take the S7 AP4 weapons instead.

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Vio'ra Mal'caor
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#6 » May 16 2017 11:17

OK. I never really understood what the Strength and Armour Piercing values did. Back in 5th, my table group just decided that we'd play and just roll for hit and wound. I have no idea what happens with strenght and AP. The rulebook isn't actually that helpful...
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Kakapo42
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#7 » May 16 2017 11:23

Vio'ra Mal'caor wrote:OK. I never really understood what the Strength and Armour Piercing values did. Back in 5th, my table group just decided that we'd play and just roll for hit and wound. I have no idea what happens with strenght and AP. The rulebook isn't actually that helpful...


Under the old 3rd edition paradigm (which was used until 7th edition) any weapon with an AP value lower than the target's armour save would ignore said armour save. So if an Imperial Guardsman in 5+ flack armour was shot at with an AP5 burst cannon, it would not get an armour save and any successful to-wound roll would kill it.

Under 8th edition AP modifies an armour save by the value indicated, so a weapon with an AP of -1 would make any armour save against it 1 worse than what it normally would be (so a 5+ armour save would become 6+).
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Panzer
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#8 » May 17 2017 02:14

Kakapo42 wrote:
Vio'ra Mal'caor wrote:OK. I never really understood what the Strength and Armour Piercing values did. Back in 5th, my table group just decided that we'd play and just roll for hit and wound. I have no idea what happens with strenght and AP. The rulebook isn't actually that helpful...


Under the old 3rd edition paradigm (which was used until 7th edition) any weapon with an AP value lower than the target's armour save would ignore said armour save. So if an Imperial Guardsman in 5+ flack armour was shot at with an AP5 burst cannon, it would not get an armour save and any successful to-wound roll would kill it.

Under 8th edition AP modifies an armour save by the value indicated, so a weapon with an AP of -1 would make any armour save against it 1 worse than what it normally would be (so a 5+ armour save would become 6+).

* AP value same or lower than the targets armor save.. ;)

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deathboon
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#9 » May 28 2017 10:23

Some new information about Assault weapons makes me very hopeful about suit mounted burst cannons. According to recent leaked shooting rules, assault weapons can now move, advance, and shoot. I have a feeling that double burst + flamer suits are going to be amazing. Just a silly amount of firepower.

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Panzer
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#10 » May 28 2017 11:28

Not if the profile is still similar to Pusle Rifles in 8th.

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deathboon
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#11 » May 28 2017 12:36

Panzer wrote:Not if the profile is still similar to Pulse Rifles in 8th.


They're are some of us that do not use pulse rifles. Myself for example. I own one squad of fire warriors and they're a breacher team. The rest of my models are either battle suits or drones. This is because I hate static gunlines and prefer dynamic tactics available to highly mobile battle suits.

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Panzer
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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#12 » May 28 2017 12:51

It was just one example. We have plenty of S5 AP5 all over our Codex and Burst Cannons are the weakest choice (together with unbuffed Gun Drones I guess).

Just because you decide for yourself that you don't want to use a specific unit doesn't mean it's not there. Strike Teams also don't have to be static. That too is up to you.

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Re: Are Burst cannons useful anymore???

Post#13 » May 28 2017 05:31

The only thing that makes Strike Teams static is the Fireblade's ability or a DS8.
Rapid Fire and 30" should motivate to move a few inches to gain the second shot. With Ethereal even 3. And as a Hunter Cadre even shoot after running.

Firewarriors are not less mobile as other infantry.

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