Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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SniperTau
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#91 » Jun 14 2017 07:10

Just saw this whole topic. I now wish I made my commander a Coldstar. The flank tactic is a fantastic idea! I personally used jet pack moves in 7th to keep out of charge range of nids and stuff like that so this whole 'jumping to flanks and then switching' thing appeals to my inner tactician.
I have had the good luck to play a 2 on 2 game with my nids friend as a buddy and I am now a firm believer in mobility. His flyrant completed a turn 1 charge on a leman russ and killed it 2 turns later. We were playing on a 4x4 board. This thread has given me so much inspiration, and those two factors combined will have me converting a coldstar in no time.

Tau'va, comrades.

Sniper

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Iron-Fist
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#92 » Jun 28 2017 12:19

I just got back from a test game at the FLGS using a Cold Storm list.

My 1500pt list:
Supreme Command Detachment 1:
-3x Coldstar Commanders (ATS+SG)

Supreme Command Detachment 2:
-3x Coldstar Commanders (ATS+SG)

Outrider Detachment
-1x Coldstar Commander (ATS+DC)
-2x units of 4 marker drones
-1x unit of 9 gun drones

Enemy List (Dark Eldar)
His army
-Raider w/ 2x archons and some incubi
-2x venoms w/ 5x trueborn with blasters and splinter cannons
-3x venoms w/ 5x warriors with blasters
-1x ravager w/ 3x dark lances
-1x flyer w/ 2x dark lances

First game! I deployed with the drones and DC commander central and all the right of the commanders to the left. He seemed a very canny player, he did not take the bait completely and deployed spread across the field. The raider deployed right in front of the the group of commanders to the side though, and that was enough for me. He got first turn and stripped off every single drone while advancing down the field.

For the rest of the game he didnt kill a single other model.

I jumped 40' first turn, dodging his big CC unit. I jumped from cover to cover, the character rule allowing me to put the 2-3 closest chars in cover and the rest out in the open without fear. 2+ saves vs splinter cannons neutralized them nicely. Dark lances and blasters slipped through, but I used literally all of my rerolls on invulnerable saves and it paid off in a big way. I moved characters back when they got wounded, even if it was just 1-2. He conceded turn 4, and in the end I had all 9 commanders alive with more than 40 wounds spread out over them.

Highlight: He assaulted a commander with a venom (-1 to hit meant no overwatch), I heroic interventioned and 5 commanders brought it down.

The take away is that this is a viable list. The damage output did not feel overwhelming, but it was highly consistent, with the 18'' and 36'' range bands having plenty of targets. The individual toughness of the commanders combined with the character rule and their speed (allowing for amazing use of even small amounts of cover) really kept everyone on the field. Having 4 commanders with 1 wound left still doing damage was a great feeling.
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The Tau Deathstar 2015: 8-1

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Panzer
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#93 » Jun 28 2017 12:29

Since you were talking about Cover, keep in mind that the Commander is not Infantry, so he doesn't get Cover THAT easily unless you play without the advanced terrain rules.

Also I'm certainly not impressed by the DEldars damage output. It should be more than possible to nuke at least on T5 W6 2+/4++ model before you can switch it out with another Commander.

Also -1 to-hit doesn't apply to overwatch since the overwatch clearly state that modifier not apply. ;)

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#94 » Jun 28 2017 02:12

Cold Storm [list] :dead:

I like it.

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Quorgyle
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#95 » Jun 28 2017 04:29

Iron-Fist wrote:Highlight: He assaulted a commander with a venom (-1 to hit meant no overwatch), I heroic interventioned and 5 commanders brought it down.


2 things.
Overwatch always hits on 6.
How did you do heroic intervention with 4 commanders ?

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Arka0415
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#96 » Jun 28 2017 04:38

Quorgyle wrote:
Iron-Fist wrote:Highlight: He assaulted a commander with a venom (-1 to hit meant no overwatch), I heroic interventioned and 5 commanders brought it down.


2 things.
Overwatch always hits on 6.
How did you do heroic intervention with 4 commanders ?


I think this is true- overwatch rolls can't be modified right, only re-rolled?

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Quorgyle
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#97 » Jun 28 2017 04:53

"Overwatch is resolved like a normalm shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."
page 182 of the Rulebook

On the same page:

"Heroic Intervention
After the enemy has completed all of their charge moves, any of your CHARACTERS that are within 3" of an enemy unit may perform a Heroic Intervention. Any that do so can move up to 3", so long as they end the move closer to the nearest enemy model."

So I can't really picture the battlefield in my mind where you have 5 commanders right next to each other in a way they all have 3" towards the enemy unit so that they can do Heroic Intervention.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#98 » Jun 28 2017 09:29

It can be interpreted that overwatch cannot be made to be a dice roll any higher than a 6 in that it means it always hits on a 6. However, it would appear since our markerlights with 5 hits (a tall ask on overwatch) "+1 to hit" it would still allow our 5's to hit because it would be modified up. Yes, I just used the word modified and it states "irrespective of any modifiers" but again this applies to the roll when it would need a 7+ since it doesn't state overwatch cannot be modified just simply that it always hits on 6's irrespective of any modifiers. Basically it's meaning that you can never LOSE overwatch but it can be buffed IE a roll of 5 becomes a 6 and therefore hits whereas a roll of 6 against "hard to hit" units becomes a 7 and is impossible to get but because of writing of the rule it allows you to always hit on that natural roll of 6.

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Quorgyle
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#99 » Jun 28 2017 09:50

5 markerlights is a modifier. And it's always on 6. The rules clearly state that. I even pasted the rules above. A 6 is a 6 and that's it.

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Panzer
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#100 » Jun 28 2017 10:56

Just no. No modifier for overwatch. There is not a single rule that would modify the actual Overwatch rule of hitting on 6s. Any special rule always modifies the dice roll. There is no loophole. Overwatch is simply always just on 6s, unless there is a special rule that specifically says you do otherwise for Overwatch.

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Iron-Fist
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#101 » Jun 28 2017 11:32

Quorgyle wrote:"Overwatch is resolved like a normalm shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."
page 182 of the Rulebook

On the same page:

"Heroic Intervention
After the enemy has completed all of their charge moves, any of your CHARACTERS that are within 3" of an enemy unit may perform a Heroic Intervention. Any that do so can move up to 3", so long as they end the move closer to the nearest enemy model."

So I can't really picture the battlefield in my mind where you have 5 commanders right next to each other in a way they all have 3" towards the enemy unit so that they can do Heroic Intervention.


Dang so I coulda been overarching!

I had all the commanders clustered right next to eachother, moving like a unit. He charged one and the rest piled in, This also helped me keep him from nuking a single commander, because 2-3 of the commanders were exposed to different units as the closest character, I had them arranged almost like a star a lot of the time, it wasn't too hard to have a commander at the top and another at each side as the closest.
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The Tau Deathstar 2015: 8-1

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Iron-Fist
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#102 » Jun 28 2017 11:40

Panzer wrote:Since you were talking about Cover, keep in mind that the Commander is not Infantry, so he doesn't get Cover THAT easily unless you play without the advanced terrain rules.

Also I'm certainly not impressed by the DEldars damage output. It should be more than possible to nuke at least on T5 W6 2+/4++ model before you can switch it out with another Commander.

Also -1 to-hit doesn't apply to overwatch since the overwatch clearly state that modifier not apply. ;)


There were a bunch of those little pieces of ruins which obscured them nicely, having to only get 1 model into cover to get the bonus was a pretty sweet advantage I had not thought of before I started maneuvering around the field. Definitely terrain dependent though, with the LOS blocking requirement.
Augmented Puretide Council
The Tau Deathstar 2015: 8-1

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Iron-Fist
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#103 » Jul 02 2017 06:25

New FAQ. CC weapons are noe AP 0. Affected by ATS now?

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#104 » Jul 02 2017 06:36

Iron-Fist wrote:New FAQ. CC weapons are noe AP 0. Affected by ATS now?


They most certainly are.

A bit of icing on the cake for a Commander who gets caught up in melee, but unless you're looking to beat up some Heavy Weapon Squads, the Coldstar Commander shouldn't think he's even at Farsight's halfway-decent level at CQC.

That said, Coldstars are quite capable of finding, and landing just over 1" away from, exactly those backfield Heavy Weapon squads and their equivalents (i.e. what's left of Devastators after the Coldstar shoots at 'em, or a back field Broadside, etc., etc.), and the ATS only adds to their appeal for that purpose.

As always, though, the pulls of Target Locks and Shield Generators is strong, and the minor benefit when in CQC is worth enough that it remains my favorite (moreso!), but not necessarily a no-brainer decision.

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Shas'Bro
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#105 » Jul 02 2017 07:35

Unless I'm missing something...where is everyone getting that battlesuit cc attacks are ap0 and not AP (-)?

Most close combat weapons listed in the indices clearly have an AP(0) or what have you. Even chainswords and combat blades have an AP0. On the other hand, we just have a S5 attack on a crisis suit. How do we know it's not AP0 and actually AP(-)...meaning we don't get the benefit from the ATS?
*As your Rules Laywer, I advise you against that action

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boomwolf
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#106 » Jul 02 2017 07:44

Shas'Bro wrote:Unless I'm missing something...where is everyone getting that battlesuit cc attacks are ap0 and not AP (-)?

Most close combat weapons listed in the indices clearly have an AP(0) or what have you. Even chainswords and combat blades have an AP0. On the other hand, we just have a S5 attack on a crisis suit. How do we know it's not AP0 and actually AP(-)...meaning we don't get the benefit from the ATS?


New FAQs

We got an entire thread on them:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25913

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Maxwell
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#107 » Jul 02 2017 07:51

Shas'Bro wrote:Unless I'm missing something...where is everyone getting that battlesuit cc attacks are ap0 and not AP (-)?

Most close combat weapons listed in the indices clearly have an AP(0) or what have you. Even chainswords and combat blades have an AP0. On the other hand, we just have a S5 attack on a crisis suit. How do we know it's not AP0 and actually AP(-)...meaning we don't get the benefit from the ATS?


Page 183 in the core rule book. This is now changed but that's the original source.

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Shas'Bro
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Re: Rising Star: Cold Star Commander In 8th Edition

Post#108 » Jul 02 2017 08:40

I see the FAQ lists close combat weapons as changing, but where does it say that battlesuits carry a close combat weapon? I'm looking through all the battlesuit entries and I have yet to find any close combat weapon they carry that's AP0. I'm not trying to be pedantic :P but I'm trying to find anything. Under the Tau Melee weapons section in Xenos 2, there does not exist any weapon in the 5 or 6 entries called close combat weapon.

Is there something in the BRB that stipulates of models don't have an explicitly mentioned ccw that they automatically have an AP0 "close combat weapon"? If not, you guys might be creatively interpreting it incorrectly for benefit (trust me I would enjoy -1 AP attacks in cc too, but it sounds too good to be true).
*As your Rules Laywer, I advise you against that action

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