8th edition crisis suits

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Shadeseraph
Shas
Posts: 64

8th edition crisis suits

Post#1 » Jun 01 2017 11:56

I've been thinking a bit about these little dudes. They have always been rather good partners in crime, usually offering some of the best specialized firepower. When I got the list of points, I got a bit bummed, as most of you I guess, because they had increased in price by a large margin.

However, as I was making a list, I noticed that I was kind of missing on that same specialized firepower - so I got to think on the different options I had. And I finally figured something: the new special deployment mode is nuts. Real nuts.

Let's take a small, 3 bodies crisis team. Plas/plas for simplicity, at 64 pts the body. You could even push to plas/plas/plas if you care more about firepower than durability, at 75 each.
That's 12 shots at short range, 18 with triple plasma. And, due to the new rules, we are assured to be able to deploy within short range of whatever we want dead.

But that's not all. Besides raising the cost of the unit, we also got two advantages: first - our suits now are T5 and 3W. This means that they are actually surprisingly competent on Close combat. Sure, they hit in close combat on 5s. Most MEQS hit them back on 3+, but we wound them on 3+ and they wound us on 5+. And, most important, drones can protect our crisis from damage in close combat as well - hidden powerfist you say?. Morale affects us much less than them due to low body count - and, again, drones.

And in our next turn we can just disengage and shoot them again. And engage a different unit because why not. Heck, now we attack first if we are the ones doing the charging. Crisis can even charge supersonic fliers if they want.

So - basically we got ourselves a highly improved version of the forgeworld suits. A unit that can actually engage and slow down the enemy, fall back and shoot, or tie the enemy heavy support.

BillyBones
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 97

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#2 » Jun 01 2017 12:06

Now I wonder if the ATS works in cc.

Shadeseraph
Shas
Posts: 64

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#3 » Jun 01 2017 12:12

It... it really looks like it does. It increases the AP value of all your weapons by one, it doesn't discriminate. Models without close combat weapons in their profile all use the generic Close Combat Weapon - which is also a weapon.

Oh. Oh.

I'm really thinking that the idea of a Farsight enclaves list with a good degree of focus on close combat is not exactly a bad idea.

Barteh
Shas
Posts: 4

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#4 » Jun 01 2017 12:29

I think the STR 6 on Plasma is really going to do them in. Cyclic ion blaster is more expensive, has slightly less range, but always puts out 3 shots per at str 7 (vital for vehicles) or even 8. 2 CIB + Advanced targeting suits look pretty scary.

Shadeseraph
Shas
Posts: 64

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#5 » Jun 01 2017 12:38

What about double flamer + ATS?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2926

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#6 » Jun 01 2017 01:07

Shadeseraph wrote:It... it really looks like it does. It increases the AP value of all your weapons by one, it doesn't discriminate. Models without close combat weapons in their profile all use the generic Close Combat Weapon - which is also a weapon.

Oh. Oh.

Lmao you are right. Too bad we still can't hit for the life of it. :P

Anyway, if you want to talk about Plasma Crisis you just have to compare them to Vespid.

A unit of 3 Crisis with tripple PR costs 225 points
They have M8 S5 T5 W3 Save 3+
6 shots at 12" S6 AP-2 each
Makes 9 wounds and 18 shots in total

For exactly 225 points we get 15 Vespid
They have M14 S3 T4 W1 Save 4+
2 shots at 24" S5 AP-2 each
Makes 15 wounds and 30 shots in total

So Vespid obviously take the cake when it's about raw damage output against a tripple Plas unit. S5 vs S6 only really makes a difference against T3, T5-6 and T10-11. So not against Marines and most Vehicles. The targets who usually have the good armor saves and which should be the target priority of a Plasma unit.
Crisis are a bit more durable, however Vespid are Infantry so they benefit from Cover pushing their save to 3+ closing the gap to Crisis in that regard. They also have the higher woundpool if we consider the whole unit.
Vespid also are way more mobile and have a higher modelcount which both make them better at grabbing objectives.
=> My money on Vespid here. More damage most of the time, not much less durable and MUCH better for objectives.

A unit with double Plasma and ATS would cost 216 points btw and would lose 6 shots, going down to 12 shots. Could be worthwhile, but I'd rather see the ATS on higher shot volume weapons like BCs or CIBs.


I started typing comparisons for the other weapons but honestly I'm rather busy today and that would be way better compare in excel. However Crisis actually don't look that bad compared to other units with S7 AP1 and units with S5 AP0 weapons. Sometimes they are more durable, sometimes they do more damage than their comparison for the same point cost.
I say Crisis are not as bad as some say they are in 8th. Sure you could replace them with Commanders, however modelcount in units is a thing in 8th to claim objectives and you won't get as many CP when you build a list spamming HQs.

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boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 1752

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#7 » Jun 01 2017 01:29

Crisis suits are a flop.
Because commanders exist, and they are more cost efficient in both shooting and tanking damage, while having special abilities and they cam take loadouts a crisis can't match.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 510

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#8 » Jun 01 2017 05:27

Barteh wrote:I think the STR 6 on Plasma is really going to do them in. Cyclic ion blaster is more expensive, has slightly less range, but always puts out 3 shots per at str 7 (vital for vehicles) or even 8. 2 CIB + Advanced targeting suits look pretty scary.

I've been consistently running 1Plas+1Ion on my Crisis suits, and its been really effective in 7th. I definitely feel like this combo, with a support system, will continue to devastate my enemies in the new edition, even after the price hike. I actually think that I may do better now that there's no templates. I think I'm happy to use the overcharge profile now that we can reroll 1s with Markerlights, possibly making it near impossible to get hot.
The days of goodly English is went

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555ea
Shas'Saal
Posts: 35

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#9 » Jun 02 2017 05:59

Guys, we have to admin that 2 full commanders cost as much as 3 full crisis suits.
4xFB+commander = 160x2 = 320. 9xFB+3crisis = 315.

GW promised that by taking out the points at the end they would be able to change them. Let's talk and reasonably understate the price. 22 points are gone, as we are T5 and W3. Commander is 76 points, so 2 crisis suits should cost the same or less, considering lower BS. The reasonable price per crisis suit is between 35 and 38 points, because you can take 3 vespids for 35 points.

Shadeseraph
Shas
Posts: 64

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#10 » Jun 02 2017 06:21

Yeah, I'm usually not a "characters" kind of guy, so I hadn't check them, but when a commander has 4 slots, BS 2+, 6 T5 wounds and character protection, as well as extra unique rules, it is really hard for me to justify crisis suits over a commander. Even worse for the coldstar, who has even more efficient weapons and enviable speed (as stated somewhere else, ATS and either stims or target lock sounds crazy fun, especially as he can go into melee and actually kill things).

I guess they still have objectives going for them, but certainly they compete with vespids on that front. Personally, I've never been a fan of the vespid model, so I guess I'll stay with crisis.

Sniperhavens
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 56

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#11 » Jun 03 2017 08:27

How do we feel about a 3 man team with just 2 Burst Cannons and ATS a piece? Seems to me that they could cause a good amount of damage as a precise deepstike unit?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2926

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#12 » Jun 03 2017 09:03

Sniperhavens wrote:How do we feel about a 3 man team with just 2 Burst Cannons and ATS a piece? Seems to me that they could cause a good amount of damage as a precise deepstike unit?

3 Burst Cannons is pretty much always better than 2+ATS.

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Atzilla
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#13 » Jun 04 2017 03:07

2BC + ATS is better vs Sv2+ and Sv3+ in cover.
Equal vs Sv3+ and Sv4+ in cover.

I don't think that's worth it because you shouldn't target these with BC anyway.

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nic
Kroot'La
Kroot'La
Posts: 755

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#14 » Jun 04 2017 03:41

Atzilla wrote:2BC + ATS is better vs Sv2+ and Sv3+ in cover.
Equal vs Sv3+ and Sv4+ in cover.

I don't think that's worth it because you shouldn't target these with BC anyway.


One of the benefits of Crisis Suits is that they can deliver Gun Drones into perfect shooting range - where they are vastly more points efficient than the suits that brought them for pure S5 shooting. A gun drone essentially does everything that a burst cannon does but for less points and without taking up any slots on the suit. Just remember to bring a drone controller.

Which makes me want to put something else on the suits themselves unless I expect to come up against pure horde armies all the time. I would much rather bring Plasma or Fusion on the crisis suits - weapons which are also deadly when delivered to just the right spot but which add something that the gun drones cannot.

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A'ran Kais
Shas'Saal
Posts: 6

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#15 » Jun 04 2017 05:19

Dear Commanders (just because it is my firs real post on ATT),

I'm reading with interest every single post on 8th edition on every forum I know.

On Crisis suits has been said a wide range of considerations, from being useless to excellent surgical unit. I think that only time and games will tell us the truth.

By the way what I really can't stop to think is their best configuration. It has been discussed that in this edition plasma should reign for their cheap cost, high AP and good range. However I'm concerned about their strength 6 and only 1 damage. On a more general point of view I can't see an absolutely better configuration like fireknife once was or more recently full pod. Every weapon has a specific role, and I'm enthusiast about that. It depends on the role you would like to give to your Crisis team.

I apologize if those are pretty boring or trivial consideration, I'm just exercise with my long forgotten English. :D :D

Getting to a better and deeper analysis (by my personal point of view) searching for a flexible unit probably I'll go full Ion. This technology is pretty sweet in my opinion if you consider a couple of things (but I'm talking without any field experiences in 8th). What 8th bring us is Toughness and Wounds for every model. That's the biggest and more relevant change in this awesome edition. This speeds up the game, and lets every weapon be able to deal damage to almost every model (even if with different outcome). This change has modified also the way we wound a model, the new table is pretty awesome because give importance to a weapon strength. Past are the days when we wounded on an average of 2+, even our most powerful weapon (railgun) will wound biggest model on 3+. Looking at datasheet from indexes there is an unwritten rule on toughness that set at 7 the average of transports and monster. 7 is the new black.

Looking at flexibility I need to find a compromise between number of hit, high strength and more damage per hit. that's the reign of Ion weapons. With 3 shots each, strength 7 and 1 damage by basic profile can deal lots of damage to infantry model, while with its overcharged profile it can be a threat even to biggest monster.

What I sacrifice is range, unfortunately 18 is a very short range in this edition. And is here that Manta strike helps to find the better spot for this unit. Being able to land on the table wherever I wish is awesome and could be the key point for their best use.

I wouldn't go full missiles because their strength 7 is not enough to wound biggest threats on the battlefield, 4+ wound roll is greatly worse than 3+ even with their high range. Even the problem regarding mortal wounds on roll of 1 is addressed by marketlights.

However there is two problem, 1) the best way to go, 3 CIB or 2 CIB and ATS, 2) Drones, while our best resource they need a drone controller, I was thinking to build an expensive unit of 4 battlesuit like this:

2 Shas'ui with 2 CIB and ATT
1 Shas'vre with 2 CIB and ATT
1 Shas'ui with drone controller 2 Flamer (for overwatch)
8 Drone

total 390 points

What do you think about it?

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Atzilla
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#16 » Jun 04 2017 06:23

I think CIB is vastly inferior to MissilePod.
With the loss of JSJ, range is going to be even more important than before.
Flamer is also a pretty mediocre choice.

That's a lot of points for a suicide squad imho.

I'll make some calculations for weapons later.
Current idea:

2x Shas'ui 2x MP ATS
1x Shas'vre 2x FB DC
6 Gun Drones

285 Points

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A'ran Kais
Shas'Saal
Posts: 6

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#17 » Jun 04 2017 06:43

Atzilla wrote:I think CIB is vastly inferior to MissilePod.
With the loss of JSJ, range is going to be even more important than before.
Flamer is also a pretty mediocre choice.

That's a lot of points for a suicide squad imho.

I'll make some calculations for weapons later.
Current idea:

2x Shas'ui 2x MP ATS
1x Shas'vre 2x FB DC
6 Gun Drones

285 Points


I think you miss the cost of Gun Drones...If I'm corrected 3 XV8 (126), 4 MP (96), 2 FB (42), 2 ATS (16), DC (5) e 6 Drones (48) is 333 point that's still high.

However I understand your point and you are right, range is an important issue. By the way (and consider that I'm talking without even a game in 8th) Manta Strike is a key feature for the resistance of Crisis suits, being able to deploy with precision is awesome and may help to bring our most valuable weapons where we need it.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 955

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#18 » Jun 04 2017 07:12

nic wrote: A gun drone essentially does everything that a burst cannon does but for less points and without taking up any slots on the suit. Just remember to bring a drone controller.


er... :P

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