8th edition crisis suits

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Aun'El Ka'mais Varot
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#55 » Jun 11 2017 08:41

I understand that flamers have the downside of the range factor. This means that you need to position the unit close to the assaulting units. Not a very Tau like thing to do right? I know. But ignoring the rolls to hit increases our chance of winning significantly! Flamers are expensive but I think they are amazing for the Tau because we have a way to deploy so many of them in one very mobile and sturdy unit.

But hear me out. First, you don't need to Manta Strike. You can start with the suits on the board. Deploy them forward with a Coldstar or multiple coldstars. Invoke Mont'ka with a Coldstar move, advance and you should be able to get into range of something you can unleash hell on. After you do that the opponent is either going to waste their entire psychic and shooting phase trying to get rid of those two units and they might ignore your Coldstars which are causing almost as much damage. It also shows your opponent that this unit is going to be a nightmare to assault. 15d6 auto hits when you assault a unit is not fun to deal with and will really make your opponent thing twice about assaulting at all.

Do some test rolls. I think you'll find 15d6 auto hits does a ton of damage. With my poor rolls I was getting on average 20-25 wounds from one shooting phase against toughness 4. Clearly you wouldn't be using the flamers on Vehicles unless you had to. There are other units better suited for that.

User avatar
Atzilla
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#56 » Jun 11 2017 09:03

Aun'El Ka'mais Varot wrote:I

With my poor rolls I was getting on average 20-25 wounds from one shooting phase against toughness 4.


26 should be the average, you are indeed rolling poorly :D

Still, that's 8 dead marines, from your 350p 5-Crisis Team. Which is dead next turn.

Just for comparision.
For 350p I'll take 40 Gun Drones, which put out 160 Shots, killing 12 marines and live to tell the Story (and can be much improved with DC, ML, Fireblade etc)


The Point is if I take Crisis (and that seems to be a big IF this Edition), then they have to contribute something which the rest of my list can't. Range (M-Pod) and Anti Armor (Fusion Blaster) come to mind.

Aun'El Ka'mais Varot
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#57 » Jun 11 2017 09:31

Atzilla wrote:26 should be the average, you are indeed rolling poorly :D

Still, that's 8 dead marines, from your 350p 5-Crisis Team. Which is dead next turn.

Just for comparision.
For 350p I'll take 40 Gun Drones, which put out 160 Shots, killing 12 marines and live to tell the Story (and can be much improved with DC, ML, Fireblade etc)


The Point is if I take Crisis (and that seems to be a big IF this Edition), then they have to contribute something which the rest of my list can't. Range (M-Pod) and Anti Armor (Fusion Blaster) come to mind.


I hear ya. But I don't honestly thing that the crisis suits would be dead next turn. When building a list around a unit like the one I proposed you would need most of your army to be aggressively pushing into the enemy.

I'll have to think more about this. Looking into a Vanguard Detachment right now. I had not thought about using tactical drone units. I could easily throw in two max size shield drones to screen the suits. Hmmm...

User avatar
Atzilla
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#58 » Jun 11 2017 10:04

Honestly, if your enemy can't kill 5 Crisis in 8" of his army, you don't need to worry about list building at all

Aun'El Ka'mais Varot
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#59 » Jun 11 2017 10:12

Atzilla wrote:Honestly, if your enemy can't kill 5 Crisis in 8" of his army, you don't need to worry about list building at all



You really think so? I mean.. the crisis suits are not exactly easy to kill they are T5 with a 3+ save and can have drones that absorb the big hits as well as prevent charges, though in this instance you would actually want the tri-flamer suit to be charged as you get the 15d6 additional hits before combat begins.

People are going crazy about how tough Coldstars are and they have the exact same profile as normal crisis suits. Add in an additional tactical drone squad to follow the these crisis suits around in and you can suddenly turn that 15 wound crisis suit unit into a 37 wound unit (15(suits) + 10(drones for the suits unit) + 12 (tactical drones unit)) of which most of it has either a 3+ or 4++ and don't forget that the enemy needs to wound on T5 before the drones take the hit unless I am wrong on the wound allocation of Savior Protocols.

User avatar
Atzilla
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#60 » Jun 11 2017 10:20

They get rapid fired from the whole other army.
Survivors will be charged.
If the enemy has a dedicated melee unit (TWC, Wraiths) they will laugh off the remaining flamers.
If not, they will try charges from 9".

Sure adding drones is helpful, because drones are good, as I said.
Removing Flamer Crisis and adding more drones would be even more helpful ;)

I am not totally sold on the Coldstar yet. Sure, he is 200% better now, but that could mean he is still mediocre.

Aun'El Ka'mais Varot
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#61 » Jun 11 2017 10:39

Atzilla wrote:They get rapid fired from the whole other army.
Survivors will be charged.
If the enemy has a dedicated melee unit (TWC, Wraiths) they will laugh off the remaining flamers.
If not, they will try charges from 9".

Sure adding drones is helpful, because drones are good, as I said.
Removing Flamer Crisis and adding more drones would be even more helpful ;)

I am not totally sold on the Coldstar yet. Sure, he is 200% better now, but that could mean he is still mediocre.


Here is the problem I think. I don't plan on letting my enemy be outside of 8" charge. They will either have to back up and rapid fire or assault into 15d6 flamer hits.

This is a more aggressive Tau play-style. Not the sit back and shoot, but rush forward and shoot approach. Hell our suits are actually decent in melee as well. Sure they hit on 5+ but they hit with Str5 at 2 attacks each. Also after moving in and flaming them you might actually want to charge the charred remains of something or another near-by unit so your are not rapid fired down. Don't forget on your turn you can just disengage and flame on. Also, the opponent can disengage on their turn which means you are not in melee for their turn but you did charge them and closed the distance even more most likely preventing the 8.01"+ charges.

I understand fully what a rapid firing line can do if it focuses down onto one target. The point of every list should be to have multiple targets that they need to kill though.

I updated the list I was working on. Here is a link to it so you can kind of see what I am thinking...
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=25664&p=324101#p324101

Supershrew
Shas'Saal
Posts: 37

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#62 » Jun 11 2017 11:40

I think crisis suits are best reserved for taking out high value targets and being a threat to the backfield and flanks . I would agree that we have more then enough anti hordes stuff in the rest of the army and that flamer based crisis are a waste . I see me taking a fire base, composed of a stormsurge, firewarriors and gun drones for horde armies and to take out troops , with crisis teams , ghostkeels and fusion commanders targeting high wound stuff . The advantage with fusion and missile crisis is that you will only need to drop within 18 inches of a target to be effective and coupled with the 8inch move then can jump back next turn if too close to a charging unit

User avatar
Heldericht
Shas'Saal
Posts: 75

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#63 » Jun 11 2017 09:45

Flamers are amazing on Crisis suits. Partially because it takes too many markerlights to make them shoot decently. Flamers don't care about BS and are amazing are overwatch. A perfect mix for putting suits dangers close. They can form a great line of defense behind drones as a screen for commanders with more long range firepower.

If you have multiple coldstars, you can essentially redeploy your whole army turn 1 next to the enemy with Coldstars advancing and joining up the rest of the deepstriking units (this will leave some kroot to hold the backfield objectives).

Now if the enemy charges they hit the drones which fly away and next turn you get flamered and wiped out while commanders take out the heavier threats.

Brutal combo and flamer suits are critical to its success. Without them you will die miserably to hordes. Fire warriors are not the answer.

Aun'El Ka'mais Varot
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#64 » Jun 12 2017 12:10

Heldericht wrote:Flamers are amazing on Crisis suits. Partially because it takes too many markerlights to make them shoot decently. Flamers don't care about BS and are amazing are overwatch. A perfect mix for putting suits dangers close. They can form a great line of defense behind drones as a screen for commanders with more long range firepower.

If you have multiple coldstars, you can essentially redeploy your whole army turn 1 next to the enemy with Coldstars advancing and joining up the rest of the deepstriking units (this will leave some kroot to hold the backfield objectives).

Now if the enemy charges they hit the drones which fly away and next turn you get flamered and wiped out while commanders take out the heavier threats.

Brutal combo and flamer suits are critical to its success. Without them you will die miserably to hordes. Fire warriors are not the answer.


This is pretty close to the list I'm working on. Coldstars + Heatwave suits though my list is also using Sunforge suits because Fusion Blasters are incredibly op imho. Though I was spending my remaining points on drones for the suits rather than kroot for the backline. That is something to think about instead of trying to get 60 shield drones lol!

User avatar
relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 69

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#65 » Jun 12 2017 12:43

I really like the idea of the Flamer suits on paper, but I think that people might be selling Burst Cannon Suits short. They can Manta Strike from farther away, preferably on a flank, don't rely on a Homing Beacon for a deployment turn attack, and don't perform much worse than a Flamer strike (save on Overwatch) against MEQs.

For Flamers (assuming eight flamers and a Drone Controller), 8d6 auto-hitting attacks at S4 works out to be about four dead Space Marines:

8x6 (Flamer maximum potential hits)/2 (implied average of Flamer hits)/2 (wounding on 4+)/3 (save on 3+) = 4 dead

For Burst Cannons (again, assuming eight Burst Cannons and a Drone Controller), without markerlights isn't much worse at 3.5 dead:

8x4 (volume of Burst Cannon attacks)/2 (hitting on 4+)*2/3 (wounding on 3+)/3 (save on 3+) = 3.5 dead

With one Markerlight hit (not an unfair assumption if you have any kind of investment in them), this goes up to 4.14 dead:

8x4 (volume of Burst Cannon attacks)/2 (hitting on 4+) + 2.6666 (hits on reroll 1)*2/3 (wounding on 3+)/3 (save on 3+) = 4.14 dead

Obviously flamers will perform better on Overwatch, but the likelyhood and volume of charge attacks you're likely to eat when deploying Burst Suits at maximum standoff range and at a flank goes down.

What is important to recognize is that Flamers really come into their own is against T3 models where Burst Cannons don't see any type of performance improvement because of the new Wounding rules, and Flamers cause wounds 1/6 more of the time.

The strength of these types of Burst Suit Team tactics obviously becomes decidedly weak against a refused flank, however, but this assumes that the enemy out-shoots you.

Just some food for thought. If my math is flawed, please feel free to point it out.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2909

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#66 » Jun 12 2017 01:13

relasine wrote:I really like the idea of the Flamer suits on paper, but I think that people might be selling Burst Cannon Suits short. They can Manta Strike from farther away, preferably on a flank, don't rely on a Homing Beacon for a deployment turn attack, and don't perform much worse than a Flamer strike (save on Overwatch) against MEQs.

For Flamers (assuming eight flamers and a Drone Controller), 8d6 auto-hitting attacks at S4 works out to be about four dead Space Marines:

8x6 (Flamer maximum potential hits)/2 (implied average of Flamer hits)/2 (wounding on 4+)/3 (save on 3+) = 4 dead

For Burst Cannons (again, assuming eight Burst Cannons and a Drone Controller), without markerlights isn't much worse at 3.5 dead:

8x4 (volume of Burst Cannon attacks)/2 (hitting on 4+)*2/3 (wounding on 3+)/3 (save on 3+) = 3.5 dead

With one Markerlight hit (not an unfair assumption if you have any kind of investment in them), this goes up to 4.14 dead:

8x4 (volume of Burst Cannon attacks)/2 (hitting on 4+) + 2.6666 (hits on reroll 1)*2/3 (wounding on 3+)/3 (save on 3+) = 4.14 dead

Obviously flamers will perform better on Overwatch, but the likelyhood and volume of charge attacks you're likely to eat when deploying Burst Suits at maximum standoff range and at a flank goes down.

What is important to recognize is that Flamers really come into their own is against T3 models where Burst Cannons don't see any type of performance improvement because of the new Wounding rules, and Flamers cause wounds 1/6 more of the time.

The strength of these types of Burst Suit Team tactics obviously becomes decidedly weak against a refused flank, however, but this assumes that the enemy out-shoots you.

Just some food for thought. If my math is flawed, please feel free to point it out.

Another advantage is that Flamer completely ignore any to-hit modifier while it could happen very quickly for Burst Cannons to only hit on 5+.

User avatar
relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 69

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#67 » Jun 12 2017 01:48

Panzer wrote:Another advantage is that Flamer completely ignore any to-hit modifier while it could happen very quickly for Burst Cannons to only hit on 5+.

Yeah, the more I discuss Burst Cannons over Flamers, the more I find I'm talking myself out of them. I just don't know how effective Flamers will be since delivery is an issue.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2909

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#68 » Jun 12 2017 02:10

relasine wrote:
Panzer wrote:Another advantage is that Flamer completely ignore any to-hit modifier while it could happen very quickly for Burst Cannons to only hit on 5+.

Yeah, the more I discuss Burst Cannons over Flamers, the more I find I'm talking myself out of them. I just don't know how effective Flamers will be since delivery is an issue.

I definitely plan to use them in combination with a Homing Beacon. After that with their 8" <Fly> move and the option to advance since Flamer are Assault weapons it shouldn't be a real problem to deliver them.

User avatar
gmaleron
Shas
Posts: 213

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#69 » Jun 12 2017 05:13

Seems like if you want to run Burst Cannons you would be better off running them on Stealth Suits with an ATS for good measure since they can take one. It seems like Plasma is the way to go for Crisis Suits but I am curious, are Missile Pods worth a look or are they just to expensive now to even bother?

User avatar
Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 955

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#70 » Jun 12 2017 05:32

gmaleron wrote:Seems like if you want to run Burst Cannons you would be better off running them on Stealth Suits with an ATS for good measure since they can take one. It seems like Plasma is the way to go for Crisis Suits but I am curious, are Missile Pods worth a look or are they just to expensive now to even bother?


On the contrary. 2 or 3 folks have been doing some mathammering around and they've discovered that plasmas aren't that good in Crisis, cost-effective speaking. CIBs and MPs are the real winners

User avatar
The Shrike
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 75

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#71 » Jun 12 2017 05:37

After some playtesting, I think fusion is best on Commanders, and Flamers or Missile Pods on Crisis; obviously radically different roles depending on which you choose.

The former requires a Stealth team with Homing Beacon for delivery, the latter requires substantial marker support to optimize. My plan is one team of three Crisis with 9x Missiles, and another with 9x Flamers. The ATS on the Missiles is tempting, but I have a feeling the bonus to rend is lost entirely in the surrender of more shots.

As for the others, I've found plasma to be really underwhelming, and I think Vespid usurped their role for much, much cheaper. Vespid sacrifice 1 strength and 1 rend, as well as the obvious resilience, but they are as effective at 18" as Plasma Crisis are at 12" and are faster. Did I mention they're much cheaper? Burst Cannons to me have the same problem as they always have; our basic troops have the same profile, so why do I need it from an elites choice?

Just my .02

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1297

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#72 » Jun 12 2017 07:48

The Shrike wrote:I've found plasma to be really underwhelming, and I think Vespid usurped their role for much, much cheaper. Vespid sacrifice 1 strength and 1 rend, as well as the obvious resilience, but they are as effective at 18" as Plasma Crisis are at 12" and are faster. Did I mention they're much cheaper? Burst Cannons to me have the same problem as they always have; our basic troops have the same profile, so why do I need it from an elites choice?


This is probably true, but it's something I don't want to believe. The noble Plasma Rifle has long been the weapon of choice for XV8s, and to see it replaced by Vespid (a trash unit in every other edition) just feels wrong! You're right, though, that Vespid pack some serious firepower in a cheap package.

I feel like the Fusion Blaster and Cyclic Ion Blaster will be the weapons of choice in 8th Edition. Cyclic Ion Blasters outperform Plasma Rifles at 12"+ range, but Plasma Rifles take the cake at 12" or less. Cyclic Ion Blasters seem like they could deal some serious damage to vehicles and Terminators though, with that D3 damage on the overcharge profile.

For the time being, I'm considering 4xFB Commanders and 2xPR1xCIB Crisis Suits. Not decided yet though. What loadouts will you be running?

Return to “Tau Tactics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest