Aun'El Ka'mais Varot wrote:I
With my poor rolls I was getting on average 20-25 wounds from one shooting phase against toughness 4.
Atzilla wrote:26 should be the average, you are indeed rolling poorly
Still, that's 8 dead marines, from your 350p 5-Crisis Team. Which is dead next turn.
Just for comparision.
For 350p I'll take 40 Gun Drones, which put out 160 Shots, killing 12 marines and live to tell the Story (and can be much improved with DC, ML, Fireblade etc)
The Point is if I take Crisis (and that seems to be a big IF this Edition), then they have to contribute something which the rest of my list can't. Range (M-Pod) and Anti Armor (Fusion Blaster) come to mind.
Atzilla wrote:Honestly, if your enemy can't kill 5 Crisis in 8" of his army, you don't need to worry about list building at all
Atzilla wrote:They get rapid fired from the whole other army.
Survivors will be charged.
If the enemy has a dedicated melee unit (TWC, Wraiths) they will laugh off the remaining flamers.
If not, they will try charges from 9".
Sure adding drones is helpful, because drones are good, as I said.
Removing Flamer Crisis and adding more drones would be even more helpful
I am not totally sold on the Coldstar yet. Sure, he is 200% better now, but that could mean he is still mediocre.
Heldericht wrote:Flamers are amazing on Crisis suits. Partially because it takes too many markerlights to make them shoot decently. Flamers don't care about BS and are amazing are overwatch. A perfect mix for putting suits dangers close. They can form a great line of defense behind drones as a screen for commanders with more long range firepower.
If you have multiple coldstars, you can essentially redeploy your whole army turn 1 next to the enemy with Coldstars advancing and joining up the rest of the deepstriking units (this will leave some kroot to hold the backfield objectives).
Now if the enemy charges they hit the drones which fly away and next turn you get flamered and wiped out while commanders take out the heavier threats.
Brutal combo and flamer suits are critical to its success. Without them you will die miserably to hordes. Fire warriors are not the answer.
relasine wrote:I really like the idea of the Flamer suits on paper, but I think that people might be selling Burst Cannon Suits short. They can Manta Strike from farther away, preferably on a flank, don't rely on a Homing Beacon for a deployment turn attack, and don't perform much worse than a Flamer strike (save on Overwatch) against MEQs.
For Flamers (assuming eight flamers and a Drone Controller), 8d6 auto-hitting attacks at S4 works out to be about four dead Space Marines:
8x6 (Flamer maximum potential hits)/2 (implied average of Flamer hits)/2 (wounding on 4+)/3 (save on 3+) = 4 dead
For Burst Cannons (again, assuming eight Burst Cannons and a Drone Controller), without markerlights isn't much worse at 3.5 dead:
8x4 (volume of Burst Cannon attacks)/2 (hitting on 4+)*2/3 (wounding on 3+)/3 (save on 3+) = 3.5 dead
With one Markerlight hit (not an unfair assumption if you have any kind of investment in them), this goes up to 4.14 dead:
8x4 (volume of Burst Cannon attacks)/2 (hitting on 4+) + 2.6666 (hits on reroll 1)*2/3 (wounding on 3+)/3 (save on 3+) = 4.14 dead
Obviously flamers will perform better on Overwatch, but the likelyhood and volume of charge attacks you're likely to eat when deploying Burst Suits at maximum standoff range and at a flank goes down.
What is important to recognize is that Flamers really come into their own is against T3 models where Burst Cannons don't see any type of performance improvement because of the new Wounding rules, and Flamers cause wounds 1/6 more of the time.
The strength of these types of Burst Suit Team tactics obviously becomes decidedly weak against a refused flank, however, but this assumes that the enemy out-shoots you.
Just some food for thought. If my math is flawed, please feel free to point it out.
Panzer wrote:Another advantage is that Flamer completely ignore any to-hit modifier while it could happen very quickly for Burst Cannons to only hit on 5+.
relasine wrote:Panzer wrote:Another advantage is that Flamer completely ignore any to-hit modifier while it could happen very quickly for Burst Cannons to only hit on 5+.
Yeah, the more I discuss Burst Cannons over Flamers, the more I find I'm talking myself out of them. I just don't know how effective Flamers will be since delivery is an issue.
gmaleron wrote:Seems like if you want to run Burst Cannons you would be better off running them on Stealth Suits with an ATS for good measure since they can take one. It seems like Plasma is the way to go for Crisis Suits but I am curious, are Missile Pods worth a look or are they just to expensive now to even bother?
The Shrike wrote:I've found plasma to be really underwhelming, and I think Vespid usurped their role for much, much cheaper. Vespid sacrifice 1 strength and 1 rend, as well as the obvious resilience, but they are as effective at 18" as Plasma Crisis are at 12" and are faster. Did I mention they're much cheaper? Burst Cannons to me have the same problem as they always have; our basic troops have the same profile, so why do I need it from an elites choice?
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