8th edition crisis suits

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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relasine
Shas'La
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#91 » Jun 16 2017 02:51

I guess my question becomes, if you're planning on running CIB suits, whether or not you're better off just taking Commanders in their place.

I firmly believe that the strength and strongest reason for taking Crisis Teams is their ability to be accompanied by contingents of Drones, allowing you to Manta Strike with a decent little module wherever you like. Part of what makes this effective is cost. A unit of three Crisis suits with 8 Burst Cannons, a DC, and six Gun Drones is 259 points for 56 18", S5, BS4+ shots that you get to put wherever you darned well please. Upgrade those Burst Cannons to CIBs and the cost goes up 64 points, which is pushing it, maybe? I don't really know.

Thoughts?

davethepak
Shas
Posts: 18

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#92 » Jun 19 2017 01:59

knute wrote:I think the natural bearers of velocity trackers will be our larger suits (Ghostkeel [maybe], Riptide, and Stormsurge) and Stealthsuits (since it's so cheap for them; I think the ATS is just too much of an investment for them).

But I do think VTs are a lot better than they're getting credit for. It's cheap (2 points for small suits, 10 points for big suits), *really* good against some factions (T'au, Eldar, Necrons), good against most others, and situational against the rest of the factions. In fact, I think the only faction against which it would be generally useless is Orks, which are already a decent matchup for us.

I'll be trying them out soon enough and let y'all know how it goes in the BatReps section of the concourse.


Just a point here - the "cost" of the velocity tracker is not just the two points - its the opportunity cost of the slot - the weapon/upgrade slots on the units are limited - so the question is not did you take the velocity tracker - but what could not NOT take instead.

Personally, unless you are trying something very specific (wanting a drone controller to boost a specific unit of drones) to me the only upgrade which could be considered better than another weapon would be the ATS.

Obviously, your meta may be different - but this still stands; the cost of an upgrade is not just its points cost, but what you did not take in that slot.

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boomwolf
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#93 » Jun 19 2017 02:13

Well, only crisis/commander actually make that choice.

Everyone else pick a system.

And the VT is cheap enough that in a fly-heavy meta, it just clicks.
Even if said "fly" units are mere skimmers, jump pack and the likes.

davethepak
Shas
Posts: 18

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#94 » Jun 19 2017 02:20

boomwolf wrote:Well, only crisis/commander actually make that choice.

Everyone else pick a system.


I do not understand this comment.

Crisis suits can take 3 items - either weapons and/or support systems.

Can you expand on this?

Also, if your meta is 100% lists with multiple units with keyword FLY then go for it!
I am not claiming you are wrong in any way - I am stating that you can't just look at the point cost - you have to look what you gave up for that.

knute
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#95 » Jun 19 2017 02:36

My point exactly. That's why I said it seemed like the natural bearers of the VT were our larger suits because they don't lose a gun for taking it.

knute
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Posts: 136

Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#96 » Jun 19 2017 02:45

davethepak wrote:
boomwolf wrote:Well, only crisis/commander actually make that choice.

Everyone else pick a system.


I do not understand this comment.

Crisis suits can take 3 items - either weapons and/or support systems.

Can you expand on this?

Also, if your meta is 100% lists with multiple units with keyword FLY then go for it!
I am not claiming you are wrong in any way - I am stating that you can't just look at the point cost - you have to look what you gave up for that.


Crisis suits have to lose a gun if you take a VT, but the large suits have dedicated hard points for extra wargear that doesn't make them lose a gun.

davethepak
Shas
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#97 » Jun 19 2017 02:51

knute wrote:
davethepak wrote:
boomwolf wrote:Well, only crisis/commander actually make that choice.

Everyone else pick a system.


I do not understand this comment.

Crisis suits can take 3 items - either weapons and/or support systems.

Can you expand on this?

Also, if your meta is 100% lists with multiple units with keyword FLY then go for it!
I am not claiming you are wrong in any way - I am stating that you can't just look at the point cost - you have to look what you gave up for that.


Crisis suits have to lose a gun if you take a VT, but the large suits have dedicated hard points for extra wargear that doesn't make them lose a gun.


Ah, that makes sense.

However; this is the crisis thread (so I was thinking crisis suits) and I can't imagine not taking ATS, unless you are a rail broadside - then maybe I could see taking the VT and a Target lock.

BillyBones
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#98 » Jun 19 2017 03:11

Well the VT works for the whole unit, so you can buy it for just one suit and all will benefit.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#99 » Jun 19 2017 03:31

BillyBones wrote:Well the VT works for the whole unit, so you can buy it for just one suit and all will benefit.


Well spotted! Although, it might have been a mistake... :crafty:

Jorthax
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#100 » Jun 20 2017 08:31

I hope this adds to this discussion as I didn't want to start a new topic.

I see a point being missed about the increased cost of these suits vs. the Command who is undoubtedly very points efficient. People don't seem to discuss the actual holding of objective points much on the boards (I'm new to 40K and Tau in 8th as I'm a 20+ year Fantasy player casually)

Crisis suits with their accompanying drones are usually 3+6 bodies which makes taking and holding objectives much easier than a Commander, I believe this is built into their cost slightly.

Am I bringing up the complete obvious that everyone else knew already and just didn't need to discuss? Or are taking and holding tactical objectives (which won me my first game vs. Marines) through VPs more important?

No point have lots of super efficient Commanders if you can never secure a tactical objective.

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Arka0415
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#101 » Jun 20 2017 08:44

Jorthax wrote:I hope this adds to this discussion as I didn't want to start a new topic.

I see a point being missed about the increased cost of these suits vs. the Command who is undoubtedly very points efficient. People don't seem to discuss the actual holding of objective points much on the boards (I'm new to 40K and Tau in 8th as I'm a 20+ year Fantasy player casually)

Crisis suits with their accompanying drones are usually 3+6 bodies which makes taking and holding objectives much easier than a Commander, I believe this is built into their cost slightly.

Am I bringing up the complete obvious that everyone else knew already and just didn't need to discuss? Or are taking and holding tactical objectives (which won me my first game vs. Marines) through VPs more important?

No point have lots of super efficient Commanders if you can never secure a tactical objective.


Actually, this is a good point. Thanks for bringing it up. My guess is that, if a player really wants to contest an objective, they can throw more than 9 bodies at it though. Also, the Drones won't last very long I think.

However, the the inability of Commanders to contest or hold objectives well could be an issue. A similar idea was brought up earlier on the forum, someone pointed out that a list with too many Hammerheads wouldn't be able to score very well. Commanders might have the same problem!

Lots of people are worrying that Drones and small squads will make Tau armies weak in Kill Point games, but Commanders might give us an additional disadvantage in objective games too.

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thesnailmaster
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#102 » Jun 20 2017 09:51

The few games I've played so far haven't left much alive on either side by the late game, this may just the the armies I've played against (Sisters & Space Marines) but also games I've watched generally 1-2 models will have claimed an objective.

This may be different against true horde armies, however even a 3 man crisis suit squad with drones can't really compete with 10+ bodies swarming an objective.

I will say I like crisis suits and am running a 5 man squad with 14 flamers and a Drone Controller with 10 Gun Drones and dropping in on a homing beacon. One thing I will say about Tau is we can make some easy charges an force average cc units to give up a round of shooting to fall back, also non skimmer tanks.

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handsomemenace
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#103 » Jun 22 2017 03:06

I haven't been well received for this build before, but I run a 6 man Crisis team every single game with the following loadout.

2x Crisis suits with { 2x Plasma Rifle, 1x Fusion Blaster },
2x Crisis suits with { 2x Plasma Rifle, 1x Flamer },
2x Crisis suits with { 2x Fusion Blaster, 1x Flamer },

After a deepstrike, you can lay into a unit with 16 plasma rounds. If you support them with Markerlights from your backline, you can easily wipe out complete units of Space Marines (or equivalent), making them save on a 6+.

6 Fusions Blasters can very easily destroy a vehicle in a single turn. You won't be able to roll twice for damage, but that won't matter, again, if you have drone support. You should easily be able to deal 8-14 damage, using a command point to try to maximize a single roll for a confirmed kill.

The flamers don't do much when you drop them in, but, if you're playing against an assault army, laying down 4d6 auto hits can stop a lot of chargers in their tracks. :dead: This a nice insurance when you're dropping into enemy lines. If you're really ballsy, you can advance a Cold Star Commander to their intended drop zone, bring them down, and then have them use Kauyon on the next turn.

If find this build very versatile. It's expensive as all hell though (506 points), but damn does it make for a scary turn. You can severely cripple the enemy with this unit.
If missiles can't kill it, it will never die.

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Arka0415
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#104 » Jun 22 2017 07:43

I really appreciate when players try to find new uses for XV8s! It gives me hope. Here's the problem I'm seeing with modern Tau though.

handsomemenace wrote:After a deepstrike, you can lay into a unit with 16 plasma rounds. If you support them with Markerlights from your backline, you can easily wipe out complete units of Space Marines (or equivalent), making them save on a 6+.


Normally, 16 shots with Plasma Rifles should get you four dead Space Marines. Mark those up with five Markerlights, and you're looking at six or seven dead Space Marines.

handsomemenace wrote:6 Fusions Blasters can very easily destroy a vehicle in a single turn. You won't be able to roll twice for damage, but that won't matter, again, if you have drone support. You should easily be able to deal 8-14 damage, using a command point to try to maximize a single roll for a confirmed kill.


6 shots from Fusion Blasters into a Rhino should statistically get you 7 damage. Not even a statistical kill. Use five Markerlights and that does go up to 10.5 damage which is nice.

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handsomemenace
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#105 » Jun 23 2017 07:43

Arka0415 wrote:Normally, 16 shots with Plasma Rifles should get you four dead Space Marines. Mark those up with five Markerlights, and you're looking at six or seven dead Space Marines.


When I say a "squad" I only meant the base 5 Space Marines, I was a little vague there.

Arka0415 wrote:6 shots from Fusion Blasters into a Rhino should statistically get you 7 damage. Not even a statistical kill. Use five Markerlights and that does go up to 10.5 damage which is nice.


Killing a vehicle in a single turn is a feat that many factions can't meet at the moment. The best faction for it would probably be Khorne with their amazing amount of attacks from the Daemon Prince in CC, all at -2 AP, doing 2 damage a piece with those warp claws. But, doing ~8 damage is going to leave a vehicle desperately crippled both with movement and BS. So we can rejoice in that.

I'm pretty much always implying that things are marked all to heck. I run so many markerlights that I'm never shooting at something with <3 lights on them. If you really want that tank dead, just blast it with all your Plasma rifles too. They only wound at 5+, but hey, you're likely going to hit those last 2 or 3 wounds to finish it off! I'm ecstatic if I can do 8 damage in a single turn, as that is a big cripple for transports, usually bring them from 12"M to 6"M.

And thanks! Poor ole crisis suits catch a lot of hate these days, makes me sad. I still love those big fellas.
If missiles can't kill it, it will never die.

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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#106 » Jun 23 2017 07:45

handsomemenace wrote:I'm pretty much always implying that things are marked all to heck.

You shouldn't though. Many T'au player at the moment think about going with minimum Markerlights to just share some re-rolling 1s boni among multiple enemy units.

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handsomemenace
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#107 » Jun 23 2017 08:07

Panzer wrote:You shouldn't though. Many T'au player at the moment think about going with minimum Markerlights to just share some re-rolling 1s boni among multiple enemy units.


I find that kind of strange. I definitely feel like our biggest strength in this edition is focus fire. Maybe I'm in the unpopular vote, but I definitely feel like the Tau are leaning toward team-work even more than before. Identify the threat, mark it to all heck, blast it to pieces. I played a game recently when my opponent dropped 9 Terminators near by back line and I had no problem dealing out 18 wounds to kill them all, and they have 2+ save. That was from a Missile-Side, some Pathfinders, 10 Markerlights, a Riptide, and a Commander with a single Fusion Blaster. I feel like a lot of players or leaning too much on the sweet 2+ BS on our Commanders, when in reality a unit of 10 markerlights can easily give your whole army 3+BS Reroll 1s which isn't that much less effective. Maybe that's just me though.
If missiles can't kill it, it will never die.

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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#108 » Jun 23 2017 08:17

handsomemenace wrote:
Panzer wrote:You shouldn't though. Many T'au player at the moment think about going with minimum Markerlights to just share some re-rolling 1s boni among multiple enemy units.


I find that kind of strange. I definitely feel like our biggest strength in this edition is focus fire. Maybe I'm in the unpopular vote, but I definitely feel like the Tau are leaning toward team-work even more than before. Identify the threat, mark it to all heck, blast it to pieces. I played a game recently when my opponent dropped 9 Terminators near by back line and I had no problem dealing out 18 wounds to kill them all, and they have 2+ save. That was from a Missile-Side, some Pathfinders, 10 Markerlights, a Riptide, and a Commander with a single Fusion Blaster. I feel like a lot of players or leaning too much on the sweet 2+ BS on our Commanders, when in reality a unit of 10 markerlights can easily give your whole army 3+BS Reroll 1s which isn't that much less effective. Maybe that's just me though.

Oh nobody denies that focus fire is better. However the boni between 1 and 5 Markerlights are not really worth it so it's either all or almost nothing. So since often all you get is not much better than having 1 Markerlight on a unit it's better to have 1 Markerlight on multiple units.
We already have a rather big thread about Markerlights in 8th though so I won't go into detail here.

To your example. Well d'uh if there is an immediate threat of course anybody would focus their shooting on that one. Any army would do that, not just T'au. It's also a mistake from the enemy to present you such a high priority target without giving you more to worry about at the same time.
Especially since he apparently hasn't dealt with your Markerlights yet at that point.

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