XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Bloodknife92
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#21 » Jun 03 2017 04:25

Panzer wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:How on earth did you get an average roll on a D6? It is literally impossible to roll an average on a D6, as there's equal chance of rolling every side....

^ this
Also if anything it would've been 3.5 since the average of 2d6 would be 7, no?

You're actually all wrong. Statistically there is no aferage on a D6. On 2D6, the average is only 7 because between the two dice, it is the number with the kost possible combinations, totalling at 6, whereas the next closest number, 6, only has 5. On a single D6, there is no most average because once again, each single number has an equal chance to be rolled, and since its only 1D6 and not 2, there is no most common possible combination, ruling out the possible average of 3.5. I would however, for argument sake, say that 3.5 is the average when trying to create a mathematical formula like you are :)
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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#22 » Jun 03 2017 04:34

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:How on earth did you get an average roll on a D6? It is literally impossible to roll an average on a D6, as there's equal chance of rolling every side....

^ this
Also if anything it would've been 3.5 since the average of 2d6 would be 7, no?

You're actually all wrong. Statistically there is no aferage on a D6. On 2D6, the average is only 7 because between the two dice, it is the number with the kost possible combinations, totalling at 6, whereas the next closest number, 6, only has 5. On a single D6, there is no most average because once again, each single number has an equal chance to be rolled, and since its only 1D6 and not 2, there is no most common possible combination, ruling out the possible average of 3.5. I would however, for argument sake, say that 3.5 is the average when trying to create a mathematical formula like you are :)

Yeah I know, but since you hardly ever roll only a single d6 over the course of a whole game with that weapon you can simply assume it's 3.5. It's the next best thing.

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Peregrim
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#23 » Jun 03 2017 04:55

What? In statistics you can simply use the expected value (which is the probability weighted average) to find the average outcome for something like a dice roll. Using the most common outcome as an average doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of a dice roll because - as you noted - there is no most common outcome for one D6. Your approach ends up with the bizarre quirk that you can only find an average dice roll if you roll an even number of dice. That's why the expected value is a much better measure of average; for an even number of dice it will give you the same result as the most common outcome, but it also lets you calculate a useful value for an odd number of dice.

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Hungry_Bert
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#24 » Jun 03 2017 06:02

Wow, I just came here to read about how to use my broadsides in 8th.

I came away having received a lesson on D6 statistics and wondering what a monat broadside is?

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Raverrn
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#25 » Jun 03 2017 06:11

'Monat' is the super nerdy way of referring to a single suit.

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Atzilla
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#26 » Jun 03 2017 06:45

@bloodknife92
You still talk about most common outcome calculation.
We use expected value in our calculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

@hungry_bert
The more you know :D
Though I remember the term Monat being quite commonly used on ATT.

We really should go back discussing broadsides now...

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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#27 » Jun 03 2017 06:58

Raverrn wrote:'Monat' is the super nerdy way of referring to a single suit.

If you don't like how Tau things are named this is probably the wrong forum for you. :roll:

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Hungry_Bert
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#28 » Jun 05 2017 07:34

Thanks for the education chaps :D

I'm thinking of taking a railside into a 500 point Patrol detachment battle against a Tyranid player. I suspect he will be taking his winged hive tyrant and about 60 gaunts.

Does this sound like an efficient use of points or should I go for something that'll work better against the gaunts as well as the tyrant?

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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#29 » Jun 05 2017 07:43

Hungry_Bert wrote:Thanks for the education chaps :D

I'm thinking of taking a railside into a 500 point Patrol detachment battle against a Tyranid player. I suspect he will be taking his winged hive tyrant and about 60 gaunts.

Does this sound like an efficient use of points or should I go for something that'll work better against the gaunts as well as the tyrant?

I actually think he is way too expensive for a 500p game but go ahead and report back. If you are sure he takes his flyrant, take Velocity Tracker for the +1 to-hit on him as well. :D

Shadeseraph
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#30 » Jun 05 2017 07:44

The Missileside, especially with ATS, will perform better in most cases, to be honest. The tyrant has only 10 T6 wounds and a 5+ ward save, and it can't benefit from the character rule, so 8 S7 AP2 D3 missiles are bound to be more damaging than 2 S8 AP4 D6 railguns, even with the chance of a mortal wound.

Or, if he isn't bringing a lot of shooting, just flood the board with ion rifle pathfinders. The pathfinders themselves work rather well with M7 and carbines against hordes.

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boomwolf
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#31 » Jun 05 2017 08:34

Question is, is the HYMP+ATS combo more powerful, or more efficient?

Because one would not forget it also costs more (27 points to switch to HYMPs and take an ATS)

If the difference in damage is marginal (have not run numbers yet), then it might not actually be any better.

Shadeseraph
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#32 » Jun 05 2017 09:11

First - plasma isn't a good idea because the only target that would care about it would be the tyrant, and with a move of 18" if you are anywhere near shooting range with plasma, he'll be charging you, so the comparisons should be:
HYMP/SMS/ATS vs HRR/SMS/MT (I'd say that the MT is better in this case - if you include markerlights, then it's not a great idea either.

HYMP/SMS/ATS costs 210, has a range of 36, and deals, as expected damage:
8 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 2 = 2.377
8 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 0.444
2.821

HRR/SMS/MT costs 185 has a range of 60 / 36 and deals:
2 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 2/3 x 2/3 x 3.5 + 2 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 1/6 = 2.009
8 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 1/3 x 1/3 x 2/3 = 0.345
total expected damage = 2.354

The cost ratio is 1.135, the damage ratio is 1.198, which is in favor of the missileside. On top of that, add that the missileside is heaps better than the railside versus hordes.

I'd say that the real point is if you feel that you'll be capable of using those 60" of range.

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Peregrim
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#33 » Jun 05 2017 11:48

Any thoughts on MP Crisis suits versus HYMP Broadsides?

Against T6 4+, 3MP Crisis suits are about as efficient as HYMP Broadsides w/ ATS. The Broadside is more efficient against T7 4+ and against better saves, but the Crisis suits have better mobility and they have the Fly keyword.

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MKJump
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#34 » Jun 05 2017 12:15

Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.

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555ea
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#35 » Jun 09 2017 04:31

MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.

Dangphool
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#36 » Jun 09 2017 08:29

Hungry_Bert wrote:Wow, I just came here to read about how to use my broadsides in 8th.

I came away having received a lesson on D6 statistics and wondering what a monat broadside is?




This!!

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boomwolf
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#37 » Jun 09 2017 09:05

555ea wrote:
MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.



Commander with 3 missiles and an ATS superior to just 4 missiles?
Interesting.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#38 » Jun 09 2017 11:33

555ea wrote:
MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.


It will all make sense once you guys start to play matches. Fielding loads of Commanders will not prove better I can promise you. Mathhammer only goes so far and you have to consider battlefield roles, applications, and possible scenarios. The Commander simply cannot be shoehorned into every role just because the math on paper looks good. In fact, you're going to see this a lot with pretty much every army. The math on paper looks good, but you'll find the application to be not as strong as you thought and vice versa.

The broadside has a lot of weapons, weapons that can be further specialized. This is something the Commander cannot do effeciently. Need something to take out fliers? VT can do that. Need something to take out deepstriking units? EWO can do that. Need something to help with overwatch? Counter-Defense system can do that. The Commander simply lacks the hard points to make that happen and lacks the firepower to make it effective.
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