XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
User avatar
boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 1752

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#31 » Jun 05 2017 08:34

Question is, is the HYMP+ATS combo more powerful, or more efficient?

Because one would not forget it also costs more (27 points to switch to HYMPs and take an ATS)

If the difference in damage is marginal (have not run numbers yet), then it might not actually be any better.

Shadeseraph
Shas
Posts: 64

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#32 » Jun 05 2017 09:11

First - plasma isn't a good idea because the only target that would care about it would be the tyrant, and with a move of 18" if you are anywhere near shooting range with plasma, he'll be charging you, so the comparisons should be:
HYMP/SMS/ATS vs HRR/SMS/MT (I'd say that the MT is better in this case - if you include markerlights, then it's not a great idea either.

HYMP/SMS/ATS costs 210, has a range of 36, and deals, as expected damage:
8 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 2 = 2.377
8 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 0.444
2.821

HRR/SMS/MT costs 185 has a range of 60 / 36 and deals:
2 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 2/3 x 2/3 x 3.5 + 2 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 1/6 = 2.009
8 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 1/3 x 1/3 x 2/3 = 0.345
total expected damage = 2.354

The cost ratio is 1.135, the damage ratio is 1.198, which is in favor of the missileside. On top of that, add that the missileside is heaps better than the railside versus hordes.

I'd say that the real point is if you feel that you'll be capable of using those 60" of range.

User avatar
Peregrim
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 145

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#33 » Jun 05 2017 11:48

Any thoughts on MP Crisis suits versus HYMP Broadsides?

Against T6 4+, 3MP Crisis suits are about as efficient as HYMP Broadsides w/ ATS. The Broadside is more efficient against T7 4+ and against better saves, but the Crisis suits have better mobility and they have the Fly keyword.

User avatar
MKJump
Shas'Saal
Posts: 107

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#34 » Jun 05 2017 12:15

Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.

User avatar
555ea
Shas'Saal
Posts: 35

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#35 » Jun 09 2017 04:31

MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.

Dangphool
Shas
Posts: 1

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#36 » Jun 09 2017 08:29

Hungry_Bert wrote:Wow, I just came here to read about how to use my broadsides in 8th.

I came away having received a lesson on D6 statistics and wondering what a monat broadside is?




This!!

User avatar
boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 1752

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#37 » Jun 09 2017 09:05

555ea wrote:
MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.



Commander with 3 missiles and an ATS superior to just 4 missiles?
Interesting.

User avatar
AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 792

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#38 » Jun 09 2017 11:33

555ea wrote:
MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.


It will all make sense once you guys start to play matches. Fielding loads of Commanders will not prove better I can promise you. Mathhammer only goes so far and you have to consider battlefield roles, applications, and possible scenarios. The Commander simply cannot be shoehorned into every role just because the math on paper looks good. In fact, you're going to see this a lot with pretty much every army. The math on paper looks good, but you'll find the application to be not as strong as you thought and vice versa.

The broadside has a lot of weapons, weapons that can be further specialized. This is something the Commander cannot do effeciently. Need something to take out fliers? VT can do that. Need something to take out deepstriking units? EWO can do that. Need something to help with overwatch? Counter-Defense system can do that. The Commander simply lacks the hard points to make that happen and lacks the firepower to make it effective.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

User avatar
Kunas Ka
Shas'Saal
Posts: 38

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#39 » Jun 09 2017 12:27

It will all make sense once you guys start to play matches. Fielding loads of Commanders will not prove better I can promise you. Mathhammer only goes so far and you have to consider battlefield roles, applications, and possible scenarios. The Commander simply cannot be shoehorned into every role just because the math on paper looks good. In fact, you're going to see this a lot with pretty much every army. The math on paper looks good, but you'll find the application to be not as strong as you thought and vice versa.

The broadside has a lot of weapons, weapons that can be further specialized. This is something the Commander cannot do effeciently. Need something to take out fliers? VT can do that. Need something to take out deepstriking units? EWO can do that. Need something to help with overwatch? Counter-Defense system can do that. The Commander simply lacks the hard points to make that happen and lacks the firepower to make it effective.


I have to disagree after playing the 6 test games I played this week. (Opponent had Necrons, Tyranids and Eldar). I was mainly testing out the math hammer theory about Commanders vs Crisis and Broadsides. Commanders were for all intensive purposes more impact that Broadsides for 3 distinct reasons.

1. They are way more mobile which was very important for grabbing late game objectives and for disengaging combats and still firing back.

2. Manta Strike was an MVP. You can load your commanders out with anything and guarantee their safety until you need them to delete their specified targets. With 5 Commanders you can have dedicated Anti-Infantry, Anti MEQ and Anti-Vehicle whereas Broadsides specialize.

3. They were WAY more accurate. Against Flyers they hit 3+, same as a Broadside with VT. Against everything else (barring psychic powers) they hit on a 2+. Using commanders as a super specialized fire base I was able to win against all three lists.

The Supreme Command Detachment is a must for me now and with a Battalion you can have 8 Commanders (I only ran 6 with 2 Fireblades supporting my Fire Warriors). The best part about utilizing Commanders for me is that this list doesn't need Markerlights which have been super underwhelming until you hit 5, which is very very hard against shooting armies that go first (For me it was Eldar). I think Commanders, protected by a Crisis Squad equipped with flamers/Drones will be how I play going forward. This isn't pessimism and I am actually pretty happy with how the Tau have performed thus far. Some things in our army are just better than others.

User avatar
AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 792

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#40 » Jun 09 2017 01:02

Kunas Ka wrote:
It will all make sense once you guys start to play matches. Fielding loads of Commanders will not prove better I can promise you. Mathhammer only goes so far and you have to consider battlefield roles, applications, and possible scenarios. The Commander simply cannot be shoehorned into every role just because the math on paper looks good. In fact, you're going to see this a lot with pretty much every army. The math on paper looks good, but you'll find the application to be not as strong as you thought and vice versa.

The broadside has a lot of weapons, weapons that can be further specialized. This is something the Commander cannot do effeciently. Need something to take out fliers? VT can do that. Need something to take out deepstriking units? EWO can do that. Need something to help with overwatch? Counter-Defense system can do that. The Commander simply lacks the hard points to make that happen and lacks the firepower to make it effective.


I have to disagree after playing the 6 test games I played this week. (Opponent had Necrons, Tyranids and Eldar). I was mainly testing out the math hammer theory about Commanders vs Crisis and Broadsides. Commanders were for all intensive purposes more impact that Broadsides for 3 distinct reasons.

1. They are way more mobile which was very important for grabbing late game objectives and for disengaging combats and still firing back.

2. Manta Strike was an MVP. You can load your commanders out with anything and guarantee their safety until you need them to delete their specified targets. With 5 Commanders you can have dedicated Anti-Infantry, Anti MEQ and Anti-Vehicle whereas Broadsides specialize.

3. They were WAY more accurate. Against Flyers they hit 3+, same as a Broadside with VT. Against everything else (barring psychic powers) they hit on a 2+. Using commanders as a super specialized fire base I was able to win against all three lists.

The Supreme Command Detachment is a must for me now and with a Battalion you can have 8 Commanders (I only ran 6 with 2 Fireblades supporting my Fire Warriors). The best part about utilizing Commanders for me is that this list doesn't need Markerlights which have been super underwhelming until you hit 5, which is very very hard against shooting armies that go first (For me it was Eldar). I think Commanders, protected by a Crisis Squad equipped with flamers/Drones will be how I play going forward. This isn't pessimism and I am actually pretty happy with how the Tau have performed thus far. Some things in our army are just better than others.


I think you're missing the point. You can't take a unit like a broadside and then focus 2 of your 3 points about how mobile the Commander is in comparison. The broadside isn't that kind of unit. The broadside is a gunboat, plain and simple. In terms of firepower and the application of that firepower, the broadside is just better. To drill this point home, that would be like saying the Commander is better than a Stormsurge because the Stormsurge only moves 6'' and the Commander can move 8'' plus deepstrike capabilities.

To your second point, a Commander with 4 missile pods costs 172 points. A broadside with HYMP and SMS costs 202 points. That's only a 30pt difference and it offers so much more in the way of shooting. When you add support systems to the broadside, it becomes just plain and simple better than the Commander for the points.

To your third point, you need to look at all the rules. A Commander isn't "more accurate" against flyers since they both hit on a 3+ if the Broadside has VT. VT is only 2pts more and you get 8 more shots out of the deal. The take away here is the broadside has a higher chance to cause more wounds, especially with the appropriate support (Tau have rerolls coming from all over).

T'au is about taking troops, using force multipliers and putting on the hurt with that kind of synergy. I don't think you using your current list is an indication of how strong it is. Rather, I think it is an indication of your opponents not knowing how to counter it. If you like running that kind of list though, more power to you. You're clearly playing a more aggressive up-field list, in which case a broadside would likely not fit in it anyway.

To suggest that they are just better, however, is unfounded.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

User avatar
Kunas Ka
Shas'Saal
Posts: 38

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#41 » Jun 09 2017 01:20

I think you're missing the point. You can't take a unit like a broadside and then focus 2 of your 3 points about how mobile the Commander is in comparison. The broadside isn't that kind of unit. The broadside is a gunboat, plain and simple. In terms of firepower and the application of that firepower, the broadside is just better. To drill this point home, that would be like saying the Commander is better than a Stormsurge because the Stormsurge only moves 6'' and the Commander can move 8'' plus deepstrike capabilities.

To your second point, a Commander with 4 missile pods costs 172 points. A broadside with HYMP and SMS costs 202 points. That's only a 30pt difference and it offers so much more in the way of shooting. When you add support systems to the broadside, it becomes just plain and simple better than the Commander for the points.


To suggest that they are just better, however, is unfounded.


I am not comparing a Commander to a Stormsurge, I am comparing it to a Broadside. A Stormsurge has 10 available weapons, can increase its own BS and can walk out of combat and shoot. Broadsides can be compared because they CAN fill the same role. Thats my point. Commanders may only be 30 pts cheaper but they can deepstrike, be mobile, attack back after a charge and have literally no reliance on markerlights. Broadsides HAVE to be supported to make it a good unit. I am not saying Broadsides do not have a place but with the push towards combat and the reality that we can be charged T1, having a good portion of our firepower able to start off the board and can fight back after combat is worth it.

And my entire post was about bringing evidence to the multiple posts about the math behind commanders. You keep saying just wait until we play and that is what I did. I am saying that early evidence suggests that Commanders can fill the slots of Crisis (excluding flame suits) and Broadsides. That is about as "founded" as we can have at this point. If anything your posts saying that we will all be proven wrong when we start playing is unfounded. :?

User avatar
AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 792

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#42 » Jun 10 2017 03:11

Kunas Ka wrote:
I think you're missing the point. You can't take a unit like a broadside and then focus 2 of your 3 points about how mobile the Commander is in comparison. The broadside isn't that kind of unit. The broadside is a gunboat, plain and simple. In terms of firepower and the application of that firepower, the broadside is just better. To drill this point home, that would be like saying the Commander is better than a Stormsurge because the Stormsurge only moves 6'' and the Commander can move 8'' plus deepstrike capabilities.

To your second point, a Commander with 4 missile pods costs 172 points. A broadside with HYMP and SMS costs 202 points. That's only a 30pt difference and it offers so much more in the way of shooting. When you add support systems to the broadside, it becomes just plain and simple better than the Commander for the points.


To suggest that they are just better, however, is unfounded.


I am not comparing a Commander to a Stormsurge, I am comparing it to a Broadside. A Stormsurge has 10 available weapons, can increase its own BS and can walk out of combat and shoot. Broadsides can be compared because they CAN fill the same role. Thats my point. Commanders may only be 30 pts cheaper but they can deepstrike, be mobile, attack back after a charge and have literally no reliance on markerlights. Broadsides HAVE to be supported to make it a good unit. I am not saying Broadsides do not have a place but with the push towards combat and the reality that we can be charged T1, having a good portion of our firepower able to start off the board and can fight back after combat is worth it.

And my entire post was about bringing evidence to the multiple posts about the math behind commanders. You keep saying just wait until we play and that is what I did. I am saying that early evidence suggests that Commanders can fill the slots of Crisis (excluding flame suits) and Broadsides. That is about as "founded" as we can have at this point. If anything your posts saying that we will all be proven wrong when we start playing is unfounded. :?


The point I was making with the Stormsurge was that you are comparing Apples to Oranges. The Broadside is a gunboat like the Stormsurge. The Commander is a swiss army knife that can be kited out a certain way, but he is FAR from being so customizable as to replace other units in the index.

Kunas Ka wrote:Commanders may only be 30 pts cheaper but they can deepstrike, be mobile, attack back after a charge and have literally no reliance on markerlights. Broadsides HAVE to be supported to make it a good unit.


You are pretty much guaranteed to have markerlights in most lists or some kind of force multiplier. This is the point I am trying to drive home. 9/10 times the T'au list will have a solid source of markerlights, and the broadside's capabilities over the commander (in the same role) become more apparent with each markerlight hit.

Kunas Ka wrote:I am not saying Broadsides do not have a place but with the push towards combat and the reality that we can be charged T1, having a good portion of our firepower able to start off the board and can fight back after combat is worth it.


This is a curious line of thinking. You're worried about a T1 charge, so your solution is to leave "a good portion" of your army off the board so you can't fire overwatch or screen with those troops. A broadside with EWO could potentially stop a charge or take off wounds if it is on the field. Heck, having troops on the table to prepare for that T1 charge with overwatch is a better solution than leaving them off the table to start. Very odd strategy.

Kunas Ka wrote:And my entire post was about bringing evidence to the multiple posts about the math behind commanders.


Great, but as I've said many times over, you really cannot rely on mathhammer when it comes to deciding how to field stuff. Mathhammer does not take into account all the re-rolls, markerlights, and stratagems you could use and many are plentiful. It's useful to get a general idea of how your odds are, but that's about it.

Kunas Ka wrote:You keep saying just wait until we play and that is what I did.


I think a handful of games is hardly an indication of anything.

Kunas Ka wrote:I am saying that early evidence suggests that Commanders can fill the slots of Crisis (excluding flame suits) and Broadsides. That is about as "founded" as we can have at this point. If anything your posts saying that we will all be proven wrong when we start playing is unfounded.


There are also other threads popping up suggesting the exact opposite with discussions going on there. There's no "early evidence" because there's not enough data for starters, and the data you have collected is not really reliable. Remember, the people you played are trying things out too / may not know what they are doing exactly.

Kunas Ka wrote:That is about as "founded" as we can have at this point. If anything your posts saying that we will all be proven wrong when we start playing is unfounded.


I'll just leave this here for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

The real example of what's good will be made clear with the first major tournament using 8th edition rules. I bet dollarydoos that mass Commander suits will not be a thing.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

User avatar
Tastyfish
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 575
Contact:

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#43 » Jun 17 2017 07:15

I'd take that bet, if we're talking Tau builds within a tournament rather than the winners of the event. They've got a lot going for them as well as basic points efficiency - un-targetable except when within range of a unit they can fob wounds off on to, able to trigger army wide buffs.

Bets off if they fix the Tau list ahead of a major tournament, but the set up of the starter set forces does make me question the old order of 40K (and make me wonder about Shas'els). 1 in 4.5 models being characters for marines, 1 in 5ish being characters or vehicles for nurgle.

Some fire warriors, few path finders and a commander or two I could easily see being the core of any force. Given there is no restriction on the number of commanders taken - what does a broadside do that a timed drop commander can't?

User avatar
boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 1752

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#44 » Jun 17 2017 07:47

AnonAmbientLight wrote:The real example of what's good will be made clear with the first major tournament using 8th edition rules. I bet dollarydoos that mass Commander suits will not be a thing.



I don't expect mass commander sits to be a thing.

The problem is, I don't expect anything tau AT ALL to be a thing in any high table in a major tournament. the individual models are just not good enough when you compare them to what others got, and the synergy isn't nearly good enough to make up for it (and most armies can pile up just as much or more synergy between units).

User avatar
Lechai Skull
Shas'Saal
Posts: 365

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#45 » Jun 19 2017 01:34

I'll throw my hat into the broadside ring.

They are overpriced... heavily overpriced.
They have lots of firepower, but i would take a Stormsurge over 2 Braodsides every day of the week.

I will NOT be using them.

Hopefully they get a bit of balancing love when the codex comes out.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1573

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#46 » Jun 19 2017 01:49

Lechai Skull wrote:I'll throw my hat into the broadside ring.

They are overpriced... heavily overpriced.
They have lots of firepower, but i would take a Stormsurge over 2 Braodsides every day of the week.

I will NOT be using them.

Hopefully they get a bit of balancing love when the codex comes out.


Oh man I didn't even think about that. The Stormsurge costs a little bit more than two Broadsides, but still. That choice obviously favors the Stormsurge!!

EDIT: Looking at the numbers in the thread, it looks like the Broadsides actually outperform the Stormsurge. Thanks for reminding me of that 555ea. Guess I got ahead of myself.
Last edited by Arka0415 on Jun 19 2017 06:16, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
555ea
Shas'Saal
Posts: 35

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#47 » Jun 19 2017 03:37

555ea wrote:Stormsurge with PBC, BCs, EWO, ATS. Considering his 6" he will mostly fire at 20-30 range.

T7 Sv3+ target in 30"

PBC = 6*0.67(bs3+)*0.67(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.34 wounds
BCs = can't even shoot
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.67(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.5 wounds.
total = 2.84 wounds

So at a large distance it's highly ineffective;

T7 Sv3+ target in 20"

PBC = 4*0.5(bs4+)*0.67(t7)*0.83(6+) *3 = 3.5 wounds
BCs = 8*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 0.66
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.15 wounds.
total = 5.31 wounds

T7 Sv3+ target in 10"

PBC = 2*0.5(bs4+)*0.83(t7)*6 = 4.98 wounds
BCs = 8*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 0.66
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.15 wounds.
total = 6.79 wounds

So it's always worse, and in fact, it's risky to go in a charge distance.


Lol, guys, have you even read the thread ? :neutral: Like, we've already discussed, that 3 broadsides do much more damage, than a single stormsurge. It's like 8.37 wounds to a T7 3+ target, for 495 points and at MAX(!) 6.79 wounds for about the same of stormsurge, and that requires you getting in 10" range.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1573

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#48 » Jun 19 2017 06:18

555ea wrote:Lol, guys, have you even read the thread ? :neutral: Like, we've already discussed, that 3 broadsides do much more damage, than a single stormsurge. It's like 8.37 wounds to a T7 3+ target, for 495 points and at MAX(!) 6.79 wounds for about the same of stormsurge, and that requires you getting in 10" range.


You're right, thanks for reminding me. I wasn't thinking about the efficiency. Broadsides are expensive for the damage they deal, but the Stormsurge is also extremely expensive. Do you think one Broadside is worth the cost, or would you actually advocate taking three?

Return to “Tau Tactics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests