Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Panzer
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#19 » Jun 23 2017 10:56

PJetski wrote:I think the Ghostkeel benefits greatly from the new Technical Drones from ForgeWorld that can repair battlesuits

I agree, but I'd like to leave FW out of discussions about GW units. :P

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handsomemenace
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#20 » Jun 23 2017 10:58

Panzer wrote:Ghostkeel is only T6. ;)
Also a Ghostkeel with Fusion Collider+2BC and a Stealth Suit unit with 2FB+4BC would be a better comparison due similar weapon profiles.
1 Ghostkeel with 166p for T6/4 W10/2 8xS5 AP0 + 1d3xS8 AP-4
6 Stealth Suits with 202p for T4 W12 16xS5 AP0 + 2xS8 AP-4

So maybe it's better to compare a Ghostkeel with 5 Stealth Suits instead:
5 Stealth Suits with a Fusion Blaster = 161p
Reduces it's statline to T4 W10 16xS5 AP0 + 1xS8 AP-4

Things to note:
- the Ghostkeel is way more durable at the beginning but once he lost his Drones and the enemy got within 12"/melee it should equal out due it's higher Toughness stat
- the Stealth Suits can benefit from Cover way more easily
- the Stealth Suits can hold objectives better due higher model count
- the Ghostkeel gives more easily first blood/a killpoint due its two Stealth Drones
- the Stealth Suits can carry a Homing Beacon
- the Ghostkeel gets a -1 to-hit modifier on its main gun if it moves without having heavy Markerlight support or a Target Lock and can't advance+shoot with it at all (aka Stealth Suits have more mobility if you care about damage even though the Ghostkeel has M12)
- it's easier to screen units with Stealth Suits (still not good with just 6/8 models though)
- Stealth Suits can carry one Markerlight per unit
- Ghostkeel has a degrading profile (W10 models really suck with that mechanic, W9 would've been better actually!) which causes it to lose BS and M (and A lol)


TL;DR yes I think Stealth Suits are slightly better BUT the Ghostkeel has more damage output for its points as long as it still has 6+ wounds left and is more durable against long range shooting.


Thanks for proving my point even further! You make even better points. I was focused more on the "wounds allocated per turn" but you pretty much hit the nail on the head for me.
If missiles can't kill it, it will never die.

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Dark Hope
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#21 » Jun 23 2017 05:42

Panzer wrote:
Dark Hope wrote:These are amazing mid field units. Stick a line or two of drones and suits in front of them and they're almost impossible to kill. The -2 to attack and the ability for a drone to take any big hits is enough to make any opponent ignore them, despite the fact they can wipe out a unit of terminators single handedly in one turn. Their only weakness are units that "always hit on x" skills, and I only know off one so far.

Keep in mind the -2 to hit is only when the enemy is more than 12" away and only as long as the Stealth Drones exist. Once the Drones are gone or the enemy is within 12" it's only -1 and it also doesn't apply in melee at all unlike the Stealth Suit special rule.
Killing a whole unit of terminators in one turn is very unlikely as well.


Yes, you should always keep your drones behind cover so they can't be shot, keeping your suit close enough to benefit from it's effects. Tau tanks are a great source of mobile cover. They can't shoot it if they can't see it.

The line of drones and suits in front should make it impossible for them to get closer than 12" away.

If you use longstrike for cover, the suits in front can take the hits for him, and the drones take the hits for the suits. You'll have an indestructible mobile piece of cover!

Yes killing 5 terminators is unlikely, but rolling a 3 for your FC means 5 fusion hits they're only saving on 6s, it could happen if they're properly markerlighted. If you take an ATS terminators don't even get a save.
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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thesnailmaster
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#22 » Jun 23 2017 06:05

Dark Hope wrote:Yes killing 5 terminators is unlikely, but rolling a 3 for your FC means 5 fusion hits they're only saving on 6s, it could happen if they're properly markerlighted. If you take an ATS terminators don't even get a save.


Well apart from there Invun one....

My experience so far with with Ghostkeels have not been that great, the first time I took the CIR & BC / ATS combo and I was able to kill some sisters and tie up an exorcist for a turn but then it was finished off, the following game I tried out all fusion but I deployed to aggressively and was got killed by a long charging dreadnought.

I'm leaning on the CIR as the main weapon so it can hopefully avoid getting within the 12" range and using its secondary weapon as an optional thing and just using fusion commanders for my anti tank.

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Dark Hope
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#23 » Jun 23 2017 07:37

thesnailmaster wrote:
Dark Hope wrote:Yes killing 5 terminators is unlikely, but rolling a 3 for your FC means 5 fusion hits they're only saving on 6s, it could happen if they're properly markerlighted. If you take an ATS terminators don't even get a save.


Well apart from there Invun one....

My experience so far with with Ghostkeels have not been that great, the first time I took the CIR & BC / ATS combo and I was able to kill some sisters and tie up an exorcist for a turn but then it was finished off, the following game I tried out all fusion but I deployed to aggressively and was got killed by a long charging dreadnought.

I'm leaning on the CIR as the main weapon so it can hopefully avoid getting within the 12" range and using its secondary weapon as an optional thing and just using fusion commanders for my anti tank.


Yes, they are horrible front line/aggressive models. Limited range makes them poor back liners too. They're best in the middle of your tau army. Where they are basically invincible.
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Panzer
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#24 » Jun 23 2017 07:38

Dark Hope wrote:Yes killing 5 terminators is unlikely, but rolling a 3 for your FC means 5 fusion hits they're only saving on 6s, it could happen if they're properly markerlighted. If you take an ATS terminators don't even get a save.

Rolling a 3 means 5 fusion SHOTS, not hits. With the Ghostkeel BS of 4+ that's 2.5 hits on average. So about 2 wounds against Terminators. After their invul saves it's pretty much just one wound that gets through.
So the FC+2FB Ghostkeel only killed a single Terminator on average rolls even if you rolled 3 shots on the FC.
With 1 Markerlights it would be an average of 3 hits.
With 5+ Markerlights it would be an avrage of 4 hits, resulting in 2 wounds after invul saves. So best case with average rolls, 3 shots, 5+ Markerlights would be only 2 dead Terminators.

Killing 5 Terminators just isn't gonna happen. And if you get so luck that it actually happens, you probably could've done the same with any other loadout because you can't argue with luck anyway. :D

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Dut'ch
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#25 » Jul 20 2017 02:34

Sorry to bring a thread back from the dead slightly, but I'm hoping you guys might be able to shed some light on a debate I'm having about Orks vs Ghostkeels.

My Ork playing friend is annoyed that when his boys are more than 12" away from a Ghostkeel they can't shoot at it. This is because the two cumulative -1 to hit from the suit itself and the stealth drones make make his unit BS 7. He's of the opinion that he can still roll and that a six is an automatic pass whatever the BS. I can't see anything in the rule book that says this.

I've asked how he can roll to hit when the Orks BS will be 7 at that range. Short of letting him roll a D10 :::( there isn't a way he can hit at that range. Has anyone else had a similar argument.

And yes, I have made the point about him just moving his units closer to the Ghostkeel... :?

Jorthax
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#26 » Jul 20 2017 02:39

Some old games (Necromunda) used to use an "extended" hit table. This used to result if a 7 required being a roll of 6+ then 4+ , 8 was 6+ 5+ and 9 6+ 6+

I've not heard of it used in anything in 40K yet.

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Glarblar
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#27 » Jul 20 2017 02:57

Dut'ch wrote:My Ork playing friend is annoyed that when his boys are more than 12" away from a Ghostkeel they can't shoot at it. This is because the two cumulative -1 to hit from the suit itself and the stealth drones make make his unit BS 7. He's of the opinion that he can still roll and that a six is an automatic pass whatever the BS.


Your friend just has to deal with it, sorry to say. Or he split fire, resolve against the drones first, then attempt to resolve against the GK

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Panzer
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#28 » Jul 20 2017 02:58

Dut'ch wrote:Sorry to bring a thread back from the dead slightly, but I'm hoping you guys might be able to shed some light on a debate I'm having about Orks vs Ghostkeels.

My Ork playing friend is annoyed that when his boys are more than 12" away from a Ghostkeel they can't shoot at it. This is because the two cumulative -1 to hit from the suit itself and the stealth drones make make his unit BS 7. He's of the opinion that he can still roll and that a six is an automatic pass whatever the BS. I can't see anything in the rule book that says this.

I've asked how he can roll to hit when the Orks BS will be 7 at that range. Short of letting him roll a D10 :::( there isn't a way he can hit at that range. Has anyone else had a similar argument.

And yes, I have made the point about him just moving his units closer to the Ghostkeel... :?

No. If he has to roll a 7 to hit he can't hit without any positive to-hit modifier. Simple as that. He can't just make up rules.
A counter example: if the rules would work like your friend says then every unit would have at least a 6+ save all the time even if you shoot at a Sv5+ unit with an AP-4 weapon.

But you can tell your friend that the Ghostkeels Drones only have a -1 to-hit modifier and once those are gone the Ghostkeel only has his -1 to-hit modifier at >12" left.

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Dut'ch
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#29 » Jul 20 2017 03:05

Panzer wrote:.

But you can tell your friend that the Ghostkeels Drones only have a -1 to-hit modifier and once those are gone the Ghostkeel only has his -1 to-hit modifier at >12" left.


Why would I want to tell him that? :biggrin:

Seriously though, thanks guys. This was my point to him and so hopefully he'll see sense. I expect that if I give him ways round it like you say then he'll be less inclined to complain.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#30 » Jul 20 2017 03:12

Dut'ch wrote:
Panzer wrote:.

But you can tell your friend that the Ghostkeels Drones only have a -1 to-hit modifier and once those are gone the Ghostkeel only has his -1 to-hit modifier at >12" left.


Why would I want to tell him that? :biggrin:

Seriously though, thanks guys. This was my point to him and so hopefully he'll see sense. I expect that if I give him ways round it like you say then he'll be less inclined to complain.

Because your friend is clearly having no fun playing against that unit and is desperate enough to search for loopholes in the core rules.
It's just a game, you both are supposed to have fun.

Edit: also what kind of Ork player is he that he doesn't want to get closer? Did nobody tell him that he only has guns to make loud noises on his way into melee? o_O
Last edited by Panzer on Jul 20 2017 03:28, edited 2 times in total.

7-Zark-7
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#31 » Jul 20 2017 03:26

Hello,

I've played a few games with the Ghostkeel against Marines and Necrons. It has not been worth the points investment in my games.

Things I've noticed:
1) Once damage affects stats the usability of the Keel becomes very poor. Loss of movement and shooting skill hamper it greatly.
2) It is expensive for what it brings to the table in survivabilty and effective firepower.
3) The drones are very easily picked off giving up kill points and losing the -1 to hit hurts the survivabilty of the Keel from long range high D weapons like Lascannons.
4) The limited range of the weaponry forces you to move within enemy counter attack range, both shooting and charge.
5) Did I mention it's expensive? It runs in the points range of a CIB or FB commander with a fraction of the kill rate.

I really liked the Keel in 7th, especially in an OSC. I was never TG that would field 3 Riptides as I play for fluff and fun. However, in 8th I don't see myself using the Keel unless the codex makes some drastic changes.

7

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Overheal
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#32 » Jul 20 2017 03:33

Panzer wrote:
Dut'ch wrote:
Panzer wrote:.

But you can tell your friend that the Ghostkeels Drones only have a -1 to-hit modifier and once those are gone the Ghostkeel only has his -1 to-hit modifier at >12" left.


Why would I want to tell him that? :biggrin:

Seriously though, thanks guys. This was my point to him and so hopefully he'll see sense. I expect that if I give him ways round it like you say then he'll be less inclined to complain.

Because your friend is clearly having no fun playing against that unit and is desperate enough to search for loopholes in the core rules.
It's just a game, you both are supposed to have fun.

Edit: also what kind of Ork player is he that he doesn't want to get closer? Did nobody tell him that he only has guns to make loud noises on his way into melee? o_O

Can keep the stealth drones out of line of sight, within aura range of the Keel.

He can solve this issue really easily by placing them in a Trukk to close the distance before unloading his bucket of dice.

Jburli
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#33 » Jul 20 2017 06:15

I like the ghostkeel in most respects, but not the accuracy. Especially when it loses a few wounds and starts shooting like an ork!
I'd probably take one with 2x flamers. Once it's damaged, throw it towards an enemy unit to kill some stuff with the auto-hitting 2d6 shots plus whatever the CIR gets (then again in overwatch, if they charge!).

The biggest downside is, of course, that its drones are targetable - you can't place it in a forward position or you give your enemy a free first blood!

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Overheal
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#34 » Jul 20 2017 06:22

Jburli wrote:I like the ghostkeel in most respects, but not the accuracy. Especially when it loses a few wounds and starts shooting like an ork!

Yeah but

Image

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"You ripped out my targeting system! Hold still..."

Jburli
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#35 » Jul 20 2017 06:50

Haha, nice! :biggrin:

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Panzer
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#36 » Jul 21 2017 01:15

Overheal wrote:Can keep the stealth drones out of line of sight, within aura range of the Keel.

Well d'uh. There are always ways how positioning can affect things. But it's not always possible to place your drones like that while having your Ghostkeel where you want it to be. So it's still a valid advice.

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