Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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ladyfish
Shas
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#19 » Jun 23 2017 10:29

Great starter article!
As a Kroot fan i look forward to deploying Kroot and using the pregame move to push out deep strikers.

Every 8th ed battle report on the net that I have seen is going all in on turn 1 at 9.1" , gaining even one round of keeping terminators or the like away seems worth it.

looking forward to continuing info from actual battle field results.

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#20 » Jun 23 2017 12:09

Played another game, this time against CSM.

As he had Terminators plus a Lord and a Sorcerer waiting on Teleporters I put my 3 units of kroot out as a screen to push them back and as a speed-bump for the incoming Khorne Berzerkers and Bloodthirster (with that silly psychic power to double its movement available).

By the end of turn 3 we called it as a Tau win, his onslaught had run out of momentum (and models) - at this stage I had 4 Kroot left out of my initial 30 but otherwise had really not reduced my firepower in any meaningful way. They key to it was that all his deadly stuff found itself massively over-killing kroot and drones because he could not get around them.

If he had coordinated his assaults a little better then I think I would have needed my full reserve screen of more drones and kroot hounds but the eventual outcome would have been the same - 3 turns of Tau overwatch and 3 Tau shooting phases is still just too much for most armies if that Tau firepower is kept intact by sacrificing some screening chaff.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#21 » Jun 23 2017 12:14

nic wrote:all his deadly stuff found itself massively over-killing kroot and drones

I think this will be the main thing to learn for many people. You can't just go full elite offensive power. You NEED units that deal with those pesky horde units who aren't even a challenge but just oh so many.

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#22 » Jul 24 2017 02:56

Copied across from another discussion as I think it informs this article

Current list of screening units

Drones: 8ppm, high damage output, relatively durable (for a screening unit).
Pathfinders: 8ppm, decent damage output, average durability, markerlights.
Fire warriors: 8ppm, decent damage output, relatively durable (esp in cover)
Kroot: 6ppm, poor damage output, poor durability, scout move.
Kroot Hounds: 4ppm, no shooting, good movement, cheap.

Regular kroot loose on all fronts when it comes to screening, not cheap enough to spam, not durable enough to stick around, totally useless in shooting AND CC.

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#23 » Jul 24 2017 03:07

As a contrast to the quote I just posted.

Latest game against 'Nids : a full-on assault army with a big bunch of Genestealers and just massed spore mines and Smite to clear the chaff. He got in position for a turn 1 charge but only managed kill half of the key screening unit ahead of the main charge from which I took models less crucial for their blocking role. Unable to find a gap to make the charge on the second line of defence which were gun drones his Genestealers charged in and wiped the remaining kroot; the intact gun drones and the adjacent kroot unit then wiped the genestealers leaving me free to shoot the brood lord hiding behind them. Pretty much exactly the same happened on turn 2 on the other flank, the kroot got wiped leaving the gun drones to retaliate and take out the much more expensive assaulting unit. The game was over as a contest at that point.

The key there was the number of kroot, against mortal wound spam nothing is durable so just having more wounds (and pushing forwards from the deployment zone so he could not consolidate into anything) won the game. The kroot did contribute useful damage to the cause with their shooting and would have counter-assaulted if a stray genestealer had survived the gunfire.

What counts as the best screening unit is something I am finding quite situational depending on what I am facing, having potentially disposable units of both kroot and gun drones is giving me good screening options.

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#24 » Jul 25 2017 12:32

nic wrote:As a contrast to the quote I just posted.

Latest game against 'Nids : a full-on assault army with a big bunch of Genestealers and just massed spore mines and Smite to clear the chaff. He got in position for a turn 1 charge but only managed kill half of the key screening unit ahead of the main charge from which I took models less crucial for their blocking role. Unable to find a gap to make the charge on the second line of defence which were gun drones his Genestealers charged in and wiped the remaining kroot; the intact gun drones and the adjacent kroot unit then wiped the genestealers leaving me free to shoot the brood lord hiding behind them. Pretty much exactly the same happened on turn 2 on the other flank, the kroot got wiped leaving the gun drones to retaliate and take out the much more expensive assaulting unit. The game was over as a contest at that point.

The key there was the number of kroot, against mortal wound spam nothing is durable so just having more wounds (and pushing forwards from the deployment zone so he could not consolidate into anything) won the game. The kroot did contribute useful damage to the cause with their shooting and would have counter-assaulted if a stray genestealer had survived the gunfire.

What counts as the best screening unit is something I am finding quite situational depending on what I am facing, having potentially disposable units of both kroot and gun drones is giving me good screening options.

Sounds awesome but I think Shield Drones or Kroot hounds could have done it just as well as Kroot carnivours. I mean if all the Kroot did was getting killed then Kroot hounds do that for less points so you could take more and Shield Drones even have a chance to survive against Mortal wounds (not to talk how durable they are against regular attacks!).

However you say they contribute useful damage...I'd love to see the numbers here because I really can't believe they contribute any kind of damage worth mentioning apart from lucky rolls.

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#25 » Jul 25 2017 04:36

Panzer wrote:
Sounds awesome but I think Shield Drones or Kroot hounds could have done it just as well as Kroot carnivours. I mean if all the Kroot did was getting killed then Kroot hounds do that for less points so you could take more and Shield Drones even have a chance to survive against Mortal wounds (not to talk how durable they are against regular attacks!).

However you say they contribute useful damage...I'd love to see the numbers here because I really can't believe they contribute any kind of damage worth mentioning apart from lucky rolls.


20 shots hitting on 3's re-rolling 1's and wounding on 4's took 6 or 7 genestealers off the table. Usually I have a shaper when I take multiple Kroot units and the re-roll 1's to wound really helps those S4 shots and punches.

We were playing Open War and as it happened I really needed the pre-game move to offset a deployment in which I started surrounded.

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#26 » Jul 25 2017 04:50

nic wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Sounds awesome but I think Shield Drones or Kroot hounds could have done it just as well as Kroot carnivours. I mean if all the Kroot did was getting killed then Kroot hounds do that for less points so you could take more and Shield Drones even have a chance to survive against Mortal wounds (not to talk how durable they are against regular attacks!).

However you say they contribute useful damage...I'd love to see the numbers here because I really can't believe they contribute any kind of damage worth mentioning apart from lucky rolls.


20 shots hitting on 3's re-rolling 1's and wounding on 4's took 6 or 7 genestealers off the table. Usually I have a shaper when I take multiple Kroot units and the re-roll 1's to wound really helps those S4 shots and punches.

We were playing Open War and as it happened I really needed the pre-game move to offset a deployment in which I started surrounded.

Ah so with 5 Markerlights, I see. Well that obviously changes things.
though for the same points 7.5 Pathfinder would kill have killed exactly the same number of Genestealer. More with a Fireblade in range obviously.

I'm still not convinced of Kroot Carnivores being the best choice for a screening unit we have no matter what aspect of it you focus on.
I know I said earlier that I wouldn't use Pathfinder as screening unit, but you mentioned how valuable the pre-game move was so that kinda excluded all other choices. :P

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Shymer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#27 » Jul 25 2017 06:20

My Kroot Carnivores are the running joke of my gaming group - with 'running' being the operative word. I have lost the entire unit to morale failure (7E) and battle shock (8E) in a high proportion of games (probably approaching 50%). In some ways that is no surprise - they are a screening unit and I put them in harm's way. They will get charged. They will lose models. As a cheap(ish) unit, it is common that I will not protect the investment by spending further in a Shaper or Ethereal to bump their leadership. The loss of sniper rounds, weakening of the importance of cover, replacement of infiltrate and/or outflank with a 7" post-deployment move has reduced the effectiveness of the Carnivores from 7E to 8E.

Kroot Hounds are, in my opinion, a far better choice today as a screen. Their lack of shooting means enemies often overlook them. Honestly I don't miss the smattering of S4@BS4+ shots from Kroot Rifles. I have plenty of S5 shooting anyway and my dice can do with a rest from time to time.

The hounds superior movement increases their threat range and allows better positioning to tie up or block the advance of enemy units. Hounds are cheap. It is hard to keep them supported with a Shaper to give them a leadership buff, and perhaps a re-roll to wound, but even without, they can be quite a hard-hitting and fast moving unit that can capture a cheeky objective, or slam into an enemy unit from some distance away. The bonus to armour penetration for their teeth synergises better with the Shaper's potential re-roll to wound that the +1S of the carnivores in my opinion.

They are still not great at surviving a fighting phase, though. However, it doesn't feel as bad to remove all of the models given how much they cost, compared to doing something similar with a unit of Kroot Carnivores.

Hounds are a fast attack rather than a troop choice, but by leaning on the Outrider Detachment (+1CP) I don't see this being an issue and you can gain relatively cheap CP at the cost of the likelihood of going first.

From a model point of view - I convert chaos warhound models, removing the horns and using green stuff to add tails and beaks. I got this idea from someone called 'Warlord Imp' on another Tau forum many years ago. They are bigger and come with square bases, which means a bit of shenanigans moving them to round bases, but much better value - and the models look nicer to boot.
Shas’O Sa’cea Kar’Li Cal’Cha “Commander Fairlight”

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#28 » Jul 25 2017 07:11

In this case having 8 pathfinders instead of 10 Kroot would have left me with just 3 in the blocking unit and his charge would also have wiped out the gun drones by going through the gap created. 5 surviving Kroot blocked that.

I am not saying - nor is the draft article - that Kroot are the best screening unit. What I am saying is that they are a viable screening unit and that any claim to have identified a best choice for all local metas or all playstyles and scenarios is premature to say the least. If it works for you that is great.

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#29 » Jul 25 2017 07:28

nic wrote:In this case having 8 pathfinders instead of 10 Kroot would have left me with just 3 in the blocking unit and his charge would also have wiped out the gun drones by going through the gap created. 5 surviving Kroot blocked that.

I am not saying - nor is the draft article - that Kroot are the best screening unit. What I am saying is that they are a viable screening unit and that any claim to have identified a best choice for all local metas or all playstyles and scenarios is premature to say the least. If it works for you that is great.

If he killed 5 of your 10 Kroot, how did the Kroot have 20 shots though?

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#30 » Jul 25 2017 09:05

Panzer wrote:If he killed 5 of your 10 Kroot, how did the Kroot have 20 shots though?


The centre unit was wiped by his turn 1 charge. The left flank unit had wheeled round with the pre-game move so he chose not to gamble on also declaring a charge on them, they were unharmed and shooting at full strength. The right flank unit was screening against deep strike and held up his turn 2 charge in perfect rapid-fire range for me to declare Kauyon on turn 2 and take down his big stuff.

The drones were ready to be the next line of defence but did not need to be sacrificed this game.

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#31 » Jul 25 2017 10:30

nic wrote:
Panzer wrote:If he killed 5 of your 10 Kroot, how did the Kroot have 20 shots though?


The centre unit was wiped by his turn 1 charge. The left flank unit had wheeled round with the pre-game move so he chose not to gamble on also declaring a charge on them, they were unharmed and shooting at full strength. The right flank unit was screening against deep strike and held up his turn 2 charge in perfect rapid-fire range for me to declare Kauyon on turn 2 and take down his big stuff.

The drones were ready to be the next line of defence but did not need to be sacrificed this game.

So they were unharmed. Not sure why you assume the Pathfinder would've lost models when the Kroot didn't in that szenario. ;)

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#32 » Jul 25 2017 12:03

Panzer wrote:So they were unharmed. Not sure why you assume the Pathfinder would've lost models when the Kroot didn't in that szenario. ;)


Because Kroot are cheaper, for equal points you get more Kroot to start with.

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#33 » Jul 25 2017 12:19

Shymer wrote:My Kroot Carnivores are the running joke of my gaming group - with 'running' being the operative word. I have lost the entire unit to morale failure (7E) and battle shock (8E) in a high proportion of games (probably approaching 50%). In some ways that is no surprise - they are a screening unit and I put them in harm's way. They will get charged. They will lose models. As a cheap(ish) unit, it is common that I will not protect the investment by spending further in a Shaper or Ethereal to bump their leadership. The loss of sniper rounds, weakening of the importance of cover, replacement of infiltrate and/or outflank with a 7" post-deployment move has reduced the effectiveness of the Carnivores from 7E to 8E.



I think this does a pretty fair job of summing up the limitations of the Kroot unit in the Index. They lost all the trickery that made them useful for roles other than bubble-wrap. I really do need to find a way to express that in the article but also I think there needs to be an element of wait-and-see regarding what happens when we get a codex.

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ghostancisco
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#34 » Sep 04 2017 08:16

I have been really surprised by the effectiveness of a few kroot squads when I brought them. I've been using them in 3 squads of 10 with either a shaper or hoverdrone ethereal. They offer amazing flank coverage and are cheap enough to throw around into whatever is coming your way. The shaper is really underwhelming because of the leadership bonus being so minimal. The ethereal offers a lot more in leadership and the nice 6+ fnp.

As for the units accompanying the kroot, I've used a ghostkeel, stealthsuits and pathfinders to support a flank against a more shooting based army or to force the question against an assault based army. They have helped create a 1-2 punch with my fish-of-fury or stealthsuits to clean out squads of meq or the like.

Can we get a kroot smiley?
For the Gooder Great!

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#35 » Sep 05 2017 11:20

ghostancisco wrote:I have been really surprised by the effectiveness of a few kroot squads when I brought them. I've been using them in 3 squads of 10 with either a shaper or hoverdrone ethereal. They offer amazing flank coverage and are cheap enough to throw around into whatever is coming your way. The shaper is really underwhelming because of the leadership bonus being so minimal. The ethereal offers a lot more in leadership and the nice 6+ fnp.

The thing is that Pathfinder do the same thing for just slightly more points while also having better shooting, better save and provide Markerlights.
Or if you want it to be troops then Strike Teams are cheap infantry with better shooting and better save as well who'd do just as fine on the flank.

Kroot simply get outclassed by multiple other units in the Index at the moment unfortunately.

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#36 » Sep 05 2017 12:27

Panzer wrote:
ghostancisco wrote:I have been really surprised by the effectiveness of a few kroot squads when I brought them. I've been using them in 3 squads of 10 with either a shaper or hoverdrone ethereal. They offer amazing flank coverage and are cheap enough to throw around into whatever is coming your way. The shaper is really underwhelming because of the leadership bonus being so minimal. The ethereal offers a lot more in leadership and the nice 6+ fnp.

The thing is that Pathfinder do the same thing for just slightly more points while also having better shooting, better save and provide Markerlights.
Or if you want it to be troops then Strike Teams are cheap infantry with better shooting and better save as well who'd do just as fine on the flank.

Kroot simply get outclassed by multiple other units in the Index at the moment unfortunately.


A comparison table of our different infantry options would be interesting but I am not sure it would belong in the Kroot article. I find it really does come down to what combination of features you want from a unit - none of them are outright best it really does depend on the role(s) you have in mind.

The plus column for Kroot now includes Objective Secured which does need adding to the draft article here. Having an Ethereal around to keep a couple of Kroot alive from a screening unit is surprisingly useful with ObSec, at the least it forces an opponent to spend energy on eliminating the remains of the unit which is energy they are diverting away from your big hitters.

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