Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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ghostancisco
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#37 » Sep 05 2017 02:23

Panzer wrote:
ghostancisco wrote:I have been really surprised by the effectiveness of a few kroot squads when I brought them. I've been using them in 3 squads of 10 with either a shaper or hoverdrone ethereal. They offer amazing flank coverage and are cheap enough to throw around into whatever is coming your way. The shaper is really underwhelming because of the leadership bonus being so minimal. The ethereal offers a lot more in leadership and the nice 6+ fnp.

The thing is that Pathfinder do the same thing for just slightly more points while also having better shooting, better save and provide Markerlights.
Or if you want it to be troops then Strike Teams are cheap infantry with better shooting and better save as well who'd do just as fine on the flank.

Kroot simply get outclassed by multiple other units in the Index at the moment unfortunately.


I'm not sure outclassed is the right way to put it. I understand that they don't have markerlights or s5 weapons but they have their advantages over these other units. Namely their ability to get stuck in and get in between your valuable units and assaulting enemies. The kroots strength doesn't come forward on paper. And I'm unconvinced that a squad of fire warriors could move up the flank and support a ghostkeel like the kroot do. Fire warriors are gonna lose out against tarpit units where 2 squads of 10 and a ghostkeel\stealthsuits can move quickly to eliminate conscripts, cultists and the nurgle zombies. Fire warriors and pathfinders are never going to charge anything effectively where kroot can do just that.

I think running another 15 pathfinders is gonna be better from an offensive standpoint, with the special rifles they would really pack a punch. I really want to try running 30 pathfinders. I'm already addicted to ion weapons so that is something I want to try. But it is not the same role the kroot fill. They will not be a cost effective meat shield that can get stuck in. Having SOMETHING that gets in cc is something people don't expect and it's an additional tool in the belt and having a diversity of tools at your disposal will help you engage enemies more effectively.
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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#38 » Sep 05 2017 02:39

Kroot won't charge anything successfully either. They are useless in melee. A single S4 AP0 attack at WS3+ is nothing worth mentioning. It's what any Marine comes with by default. Their only redeeming points are the scout move and being troops while being cheap (though not much more than Pathfinder or Strike Teams).
The scout move do Pathfinder have as well plus other more useful stuff
Being troops do Strike Teams have as well plus other more useful stuff.

So only thing they do what others don't do is having a combination of both. though they trade in for that the superior armor, weapon and Markerlights (in case of Pathfinder). All of them I consider worth more than the combination of being scounting troops who otherwise don't do anything better than other units who cost almost the same amount of points.

It's not just on paper. I've played Kroot plenty and I'm playing Pathfinder all the time. Kroot don't really have a place right to fit in right now. You say you won't see Strike Teams or Pathfinder do what Kroot do on the flanks? Well that's entirely up to how you play them since they certainly could do it as well. Whether Pathfinder fill the role you think Kroot fill is up to you. They can do the same plus some. And no melee is no argument as I explained above. If you want something to charge the enemy take Stealth Suits, Commander, Crisis or Drones even.

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ghostancisco
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#39 » Sep 05 2017 09:09

i agree about the pathfinders, since they get the scout move and thats a huge part of why the kroot are such a good flank harasser. combined with the additional utility of a markerlight unit and im in 100% agreement with then being more strait up useful than kroot in conventional modes of tau.

but hitting as well as a marine does in combat is something, combined with rapidfire shots before hand and any other shooting attack from your other tau forces makes for an amazing one-two punch. especially against unsupported flank units. the firewarriors are completely under whellming at flank support, no markerlight, less manuverablility and (once again i strongly disagree with you that hitting like a vanilla marine is nothing) they have more versatility with a much higher combat efficiency than both of your other 2 options. you don't rate it because you don't see its versatility as much of an advantage as i do.

the versatility of the kroot is there for you to use and not use at your disgression. i am of the opinion that variety and diversity are the way to go. paired with hounds and you have a weight of attacks and wounds that is a serious threat. i havent got to use hounds but i imagine they are the real superstars of the kroot.
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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#40 » Sep 06 2017 12:06

Yeah, no. Hitting like a Marine without any proper melee weapon or a lot of attacks is nothing worth mentioning.

Against GEQ you'd do about 2 unsaved wounds if you manage to get 10 Kroot to attack (remember that they die like flies). At the numbers you'd normally see GEQ units 2 dead doesn't mean much and is something you could've done much more relaxed with shooting anyway. In return the Kroot most likely all die.

Against MEQ you'd do about 1 unsaved wound with 10 Kroot and then die in return. Again something you could've done much more easily with ranged. A single S4 AP0 attack per model means nothing, especially on a frail T3 W1 Sv6+ body.

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ghostancisco
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#41 » Sep 06 2017 08:08

your missing my point with what supporting a flank means. Youve said you use kroot, sounds like your using them with the same tactics as a fire warrior squad. hence you comparison.

with the additional scout move they can move into rapid fire range with said target. that coupled with supporting fire from a another flanking target and a charge by the kroot gets your target down to negligible number. the math you supply is incomplete and only tells the story of your method of engagement. which is limited by the versatility of said flanking units. you are not using them to maximize their offensive output.

if you use the kroot as an aggressive flank supporter you can push units to a crippled number and they will be tied up so they cannot do what they want, secure an objective, and possible divide your opponents attention from the more powerful weapons in your list.

niether option you supplied in both firewarriors or pathfinders get to be as effective as aggressively moving down a flank. it works. don't be affraid to try it.
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AleksandrGRC
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#42 » Sep 06 2017 10:42

If even one survives if it assaults it has moved up the board and is contesting space.Which is limited on a 4x6. Forces the opponent to make choices.
In chess thats two important things. Momentum and board control. A third is time if a single kroot is somehow still in combat somewhere turn two or three then :D
A fourth is obviously pieces and losing your kroot comes easy but that means less risk being risky with them right? I think im right. Ciri dosnt know.


Last few games ive played i have two large pathfinders 3 ten man kroot squads and three five man firwarriors with missile launchers. Stealths flamer crisis and a fusion commander. Then longstrike and entourage.
I found yes most of them kroot died fast. But enough survived that by turn three some where still around taking up space and slowing down enemy models and i controlled 2/3rds of the board. Helped rolling ones on moral a lot :eek: but thats a numbers game as well. Two turns of moral rolls on three units. Ur bound to actually pass one or two.

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ghostancisco
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#43 » Sep 06 2017 10:56

AleksandrGRC wrote:If even one survives if it assaults it has moved up the board and is contesting space.Which is limited on a 4x6. Forces the opponent to make choices.
In chess thats two important things. Momentum and board control. A third is time if a single kroot is somehow still in combat somewhere turn two or three then :D
A fourth is obviously pieces and losing your kroot comes easy but that means less risk being risky with them right? I think im right. Ciri dosnt know.


Last few games ive played i have two large pathfinders 3 ten man kroot squads and three five man firwarriors with missile launchers. Stealths flamer crisis and a fusion commander. Then longstrike and entourage.
I found yes most of them kroot died fast. But enough survived that by turn three some where still around taking up space and slowing down enemy models and i controlled 2/3rds of the board. Helped rolling ones on moral a lot :eek: but thats a numbers game as well. Two turns of moral rolls on three units. Ur bound to actually pass one or two.


with the ethereal in the middle of the mix they become significantly more resiliant. on both incoming wounds and moral. id love for the shaper to be that effective but he is not.

the space they impact is exactly the reason you play them. backed by either a ghostkeel or flowing into a space created by our deep strikers really highlights their utility. they have the speed to get there. its a useful 1-2 punch when your dealing with transports. the only thing that you stay away from is primis, but thats target priority.
Ive had beautiful plays with poping a rhino and instantly the guy coming out of it have the kroot on em.
i really want to run the weapon platforms i really really want to fit them somewhere but im using breachers so its rather counterproductive to commit to not moving. i think the 5 man strike teams are the way to go. i really like that idea.
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AleksandrGRC
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#44 » Sep 06 2017 11:35

There was plenty of terrain and i already had most my army moving. I kept the tanks at full speed most of the game as well. Getting most of them into cover from most of my opponents army while hammering a flank with the stealths and manta strikers then going montka and switching flanks and rotating what tank was blocking sight to the others, my opponent really didnt like it.

Firewarriors just sitting back and targeted any heavy infantry near said kroot. In one game my tanks blocked half my infantry from firing on a turn here or there. I believe my force had 30 markerlights.
Fireblade drone port two marksmen three with troops and 20 pathfinders. (many ended up using the carbines at least once). 30 markerlights 3 railguns floating and stinging like no ones business on rediculous good gunnery the flamer suits, fusion commander all with great to hits. Half my army did not even need many markerlights and i spammed them.

Anyways im kinda wandering. But it synergiesd well. With all the units all over the map. Bouncing around really forced my opponent to spread his shots out. What could fire at my big point units did because they had to and what was left had to keep targeting different portions of my soft bodies helping them stay alive longer as well.

Thats kinda something good about devilfish like you. . How you choose what to hit

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#45 » Sep 07 2017 01:14

Panzer wrote:Yeah, no. Hitting like a Marine without any proper melee weapon or a lot of attacks is nothing worth mentioning.

Against GEQ you'd do about 2 unsaved wounds if you manage to get 10 Kroot to attack (remember that they die like flies). At the numbers you'd normally see GEQ units 2 dead doesn't mean much and is something you could've done much more relaxed with shooting anyway. In return the Kroot most likely all die.

Against MEQ you'd do about 1 unsaved wound with 10 Kroot and then die in return. Again something you could've done much more easily with ranged. A single S4 AP0 attack per model means nothing, especially on a frail T3 W1 Sv6+ body.


The big 8th edition change is that shooting/assault is no longer an exclusive choice, you do both. The assault is one more attack on top of the 2 you already made in rapid-fire range. Against GEQ and sometimes even MEQ I find that the additional casualties from that third attack really do matter and quite often tip them over the morale edge. Kroot should not be charging full strength units of infantry very often. They can bully weakened infantry well enough and they can quite often find other, better, targets for their assault.

Of course the primary targets of Kroot assault are transport vehicles, preferably ones full of nasty infantry. Large units of kroot are quite good at wrapping them up and stopping the real threat from getting onto the table. The odd wound the kroot chip off the transport is just a bonus.

After this the carnivore unit is usually pretty weakened but that is OK by me, their late game role is to be ObSec and they do not need large numbers for that.

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#46 » Sep 07 2017 03:11

ghostancisco wrote:your missing my point with what supporting a flank means. Youve said you use kroot, sounds like your using them with the same tactics as a fire warrior squad. hence you comparison.

with the additional scout move they can move into rapid fire range with said target. that coupled with supporting fire from a another flanking target and a charge by the kroot gets your target down to negligible number. the math you supply is incomplete and only tells the story of your method of engagement. which is limited by the versatility of said flanking units. you are not using them to maximize their offensive output.

if you use the kroot as an aggressive flank supporter you can push units to a crippled number and they will be tied up so they cannot do what they want, secure an objective, and possible divide your opponents attention from the more powerful weapons in your list.

niether option you supplied in both firewarriors or pathfinders get to be as effective as aggressively moving down a flank. it works. don't be affraid to try it.

Nop not missing your point at all. Just saying that what Kroot do is nothing Pathfinder or Firewarrior couldn't do either.
Sure Firewarrior can't scout ahead and kill less in melee, but they survive better and have better shooting with their 30" Rapid Fire S5 weapon.
Pathfinder as well have the scout move and have a 18" Assault2 S5 weapon instead of just 24" Rapid Fire S4, plus better armor and being an additional Markerlight source.

What little Kroot can do in melee really is to be ignored. Especially because it's unlikely for enough to matter to even reach melee in the first place. If you want a unit that can bind an enemy in melee on a flank there are better options as well. Stealth Suits, Coldstar and Piranha for example.
Hell even a Shield-Drone unit can cross the board very quickly with their M8 and FLY keyword and they are undeniably way more tanky so they have a higher chance to reach their destination in the first place and don't just die once they reach it.
Don't like a unit that does no damage? Then take Gun Drones. They are way more tanky than Kroot as well, just as fast as Shield-Drones and have a lot of dakka.


Sorry mate, you say Kroot are good at supporting a flank but don't really give any example of how they are good at that. All I see is that other units can do it just as good or better than them for only a small point amount of points more.
It seems to me you are seriously overestimating Kroot melee (again, I've played plenty with my Kroot as well so it's not just theoretical knowledge). Or you are stuck in a mindset of using Firewarrior, Pathfinder, etc. only in their traditional way without thinking outside of the box.
Whatever it may be, you haven't given me anything to convince me that spending 2ppm more for better armor, weapon and utility (utility in form of Markerlights in case of Pathfinder and Range in case of Strike Teams and Leadership+Bonding Knife in case of both) is not worth it over taking Kroot.

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ghostancisco
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#47 » Sep 11 2017 07:18

Panzer wrote:
ghostancisco wrote:your missing my point with what supporting a flank means. Youve said you use kroot, sounds like your using them with the same tactics as a fire warrior squad. hence you comparison.

with the additional scout move they can move into rapid fire range with said target. that coupled with supporting fire from a another flanking target and a charge by the kroot gets your target down to negligible number. the math you supply is incomplete and only tells the story of your method of engagement. which is limited by the versatility of said flanking units. you are not using them to maximize their offensive output.

if you use the kroot as an aggressive flank supporter you can push units to a crippled number and they will be tied up so they cannot do what they want, secure an objective, and possible divide your opponents attention from the more powerful weapons in your list.

niether option you supplied in both firewarriors or pathfinders get to be as effective as aggressively moving down a flank. it works. don't be affraid to try it.

Nop not missing your point at all. Just saying that what Kroot do is nothing Pathfinder or Firewarrior couldn't do either.
Sure Firewarrior can't scout ahead and kill less in melee, but they survive better and have better shooting with their 30" Rapid Fire S5 weapon.
Pathfinder as well have the scout move and have a 18" Assault2 S5 weapon instead of just 24" Rapid Fire S4, plus better armor and being an additional Markerlight source.

What little Kroot can do in melee really is to be ignored. Especially because it's unlikely for enough to matter to even reach melee in the first place. If you want a unit that can bind an enemy in melee on a flank there are better options as well. Stealth Suits, Coldstar and Piranha for example.
Hell even a Shield-Drone unit can cross the board very quickly with their M8 and FLY keyword and they are undeniably way more tanky so they have a higher chance to reach their destination in the first place and don't just die once they reach it.
Don't like a unit that does no damage? Then take Gun Drones. They are way more tanky than Kroot as well, just as fast as Shield-Drones and have a lot of dakka.


Sorry mate, you say Kroot are good at supporting a flank but don't really give any example of how they are good at that. All I see is that other units can do it just as good or better than them for only a small point amount of points more.
It seems to me you are seriously overestimating Kroot melee (again, I've played plenty with my Kroot as well so it's not just theoretical knowledge). Or you are stuck in a mindset of using Firewarrior, Pathfinder, etc. only in their traditional way without thinking outside of the box.
Whatever it may be, you haven't given me anything to convince me that spending 2ppm more for better armor, weapon and utility (utility in form of Markerlights in case of Pathfinder and Range in case of Strike Teams and Leadership+Bonding Knife in case of both) is not worth it over taking Kroot.


The two units your suggesting fill different roles than the kroot. neither offer the range of impact that the kroot do the firewarriors offer ranged support. nope, thats not good enough because they cannot adapt to the board by moving quickly and they are terrible when they are out of position, so even if you move them up a flank for whatever reason (unless they are breachers in a fish), they are exposed.

the pathfinder offer, yet again, a different tactic of being more mobile... with the addition to ion weapons i could see them pushing up a flank and dealing some damage but they wont be able to run the same interference as the kroot will.

The kroot offer better space coverage in a more efficient and diverse package. Im sorry you havent had luck with them, i encourage you to try to use them more aggressively (not like you would use your pathfinders for example), it will pay off. ive had great games when they are supported by a ghostkeel. individually, the kroot or the ghostkeel will fail at holding anything, but their is strength in their ability to act as a shield for the ghostkeel and for the ghostkeel to pack the punch the kroot lack. the kroot arent standalone, its a screen/skirmish unit that is dirt cheap and quite versatile. Its obvious your looking for pure stats which the kroot wont get you. they do how ever offer some really great tools to control the board space and interact in all but the psychic phase.

as for the feinted jabs, im using my firewarriors just fine, thank you very much.
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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#48 » Sep 11 2017 11:10

Yeah no, I give up. I made my point and not sure how to make it more clear. It's not about me not having luck with them, it's about Kroot getting EASILY outclassed by other units for only little more points. They are not cost efficient for what they do. Period.

Also the last thing I do is looking at pure stats since I'm mostly talking about usage of units on the table. Shows how well you actually read my posts. :roll:

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#49 » Sep 12 2017 08:03

I salute him for finding a way to use kroot effectivly in his local meta, hopefully some are inspired to find that way working also in their local meta. Other won't be so lucky and need other options.

As FLG sometimes mentioned that the meta in UK and US differes greatly as well, so can it be on smaller scales also.

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ghostancisco
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#50 » Sep 12 2017 03:47

Panzer wrote:Yeah no, I give up. I made my point and not sure how to make it more clear. It's not about me not having luck with them, it's about Kroot getting EASILY outclassed by other units for only little more points. They are not cost efficient for what they do. Period.

Also the last thing I do is looking at pure stats since I'm mostly talking about usage of units on the table. Shows how well you actually read my posts. :roll:


Sounds like you have given up on kroot as well... I'm not arguing that kroot are the best unit we have, I'm only trying to start a conversation about how to effectively use them. And yes the kroot are out GEARED by other unit but in the conversation of cost efficient screening and flanking units, the kroot have use. You haven't spoke of synergy or playing unconventional tactic besides a veiled jab at my use of firewarriors, which we never spoke about.

None of the units you brought up offer the package that the kroot do. You've said you'd pay more for a DIFFERENT option, I spoke to that and stated that I liked the alternative of pathfinders.

I came here to share my views and learn. You've supplied some things that worth responding to and others that weren't... The selectivness of my response has been guiding my point that the kroot can be effectively used. You have also ignored certain aspect of my points but you don't see me throwing around bs like "shows how well you read my posts rollofeyes". Come, don't drag this conversation into the dirt.
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Arka0415
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#51 » Sep 12 2017 06:16

I appreciate the theory being discussed here, but does anyone have concrete examples? "I had Kroot do X so that Y could happen", "I won a game because my Kroot did Z", something like that?

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#52 » Sep 12 2017 06:33

Yes, I agree with Arka. Both of you (Panzer and Ghostancisco), give us some excerpts from your battle reports. How did you try this maneuver? What units, if any, were working with the Kroot? What were your targets?

I'd also be interested in knowing if you worked in any supporting characters like Shapers or Ethereals to provide any buffs. When I read back over this discussion, it seems that Ghostancisco talks about using the Kroot in tandem with a Ghostkeel offering the fire power and taking more heat by being a bit of a distraction-fex. While Panzer's part talks about Kroot unsupported on the flank and the Kroot going it alone.

Let's flesh out these tactics because it will only help the community as a whole.

Czar Ziggy

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#53 » Sep 13 2017 06:12

Arka0415 wrote:I appreciate the theory being discussed here, but does anyone have concrete examples? "I had Kroot do X so that Y could happen", "I won a game because my Kroot did Z", something like that?

Yeah I was waiting for that as well. So far it was only talk and pure theory of possibilities but my own experiences and theories say that Pathfinder do the same plus other things etc.

ghostancisco wrote:Sounds like you have given up on kroot as well... I'm not arguing that kroot are the best unit we have, I'm only trying to start a conversation about how to effectively use them. And yes the kroot are out GEARED by other unit but in the conversation of cost efficient screening and flanking units, the kroot have use. You haven't spoke of synergy or playing unconventional tactic besides a veiled jab at my use of firewarriors, which we never spoke about.

Yes I have pretty much given up on Kroot in their current state after trying them out quite a few times with different approaches etc.
They just get outclassed easily by other units we have access to.

ghostancisco wrote:I came here to share my views and learn.

Really doesn't feel like that was your intend since you are heavily defending Kroot instead of trying to learn from my experiences.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#54 » Sep 13 2017 09:13

Panzer, the same could be said for your staunch defence that kroot are no good. Why don't you humor me with some of the attempts you've made with them and why it didn't work out?

Czar Ziggy

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