Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#55 » Sep 13 2017 09:34

What's there to say? I'm not the one claiming they're good here.
They die fast, they do little damage and they aren't much cheaper than Pathfinder who are more durable, do more damage and have Markerlights.
How comparable are their point costs? Well You get only one free Kroot for every 5 Pathfinder/Firewarrior/Gun Drone/Shield Drone. So is that single Kroot worth the worse armor, worse weapon, worse range and no Markerlight just for the sake of a few(!) WS3+ S4 attacks in melee? Not in my experience since they rarely manage to get into melee in the first place and if they get into melee they just bounce off of almost everything anyway.

So purposes:
1. Scouting ahead to deny more space for enemy reserves:
I'd rather take Pathfinder (only 2 less models in a unit of 10) who are slightly more likely to survive, can actually hurt something when they get in range and have a real purpose in our army beside taking up space on the board

2. Cheap ObSec:
I'd rather take Strike Teams for that since they are actually a LOT more durable than Kroot there and are an actual thread to the enemy with +6" range and +1S on their Rapid Fire weapon.

3. Scouting ahead on a flank and charge something (*sigh*):
For that I'd much rather take any kind of the above mentioned Drones since they are WAY more durable so their chance to get there and to survive once they're there is much better (aka they can do their job better) while the Gun Drones actually deal a ton more damage than Kroot in melee+shooting ever could hope to do. Oh and they have the FLY keyword so they can just ignore terrain and intervening units and can even fall back and keep shooting if there's no need to bind the opponents unit anymore (or if they get countercharged and survive).

4. a mix of all the above:
Okay I give you that, Kroot can all of that at the same time (though I'd argue how valuable taking a unit for 3. is when our Battlesuits all can do that just fine...especially Flamer Crisis with Shield Drone support).
So how important are frail scouting ObSec infantry for us? We have tons of deep strike and infiltrate units and unless the enemy plays a hyper mobile army and gets first turn there shouldn't be a problem claiming objectives you'd reach with scout+regular move. And even if they were sitting on a valuable ObSec...I know only of extremely few other units that are easier to remove than Kroot.


I really fail to see what role Kroot are supposed to fill in a T'au army that isn't done better or at least just as well by other less exotic units that get often taken anyway.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#56 » Sep 13 2017 09:48

Sorry, maybe I worded that wrong. I don't want the theory, i want an example. Something like;

"I played a game last week against a guard army mostly consisting of infantry with some armored support. I ran a 15 man kroot squad up my left flank with a riptide near by to attack a group of about 20 conscripts holding an objective with a commissary near by. The kroot all got shot up and died while the riptide went in an smashed the position." Something like that.

Czar Ziggy

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#57 » Sep 13 2017 09:54

Eh I could give you numerous random examples of trying to do things I noted above where Kroot simply got shot down or got mowed down in melee while not even killing a handful of enemy infantry.
Using more fancy words to turn it into a semi-batrep wouldn't give you any more informations.

Again, I'm not the one claiming something to be good. I'm not the one in need to bring evidence. I'm just countering his arguments by showing how other units who cost about as much do the same plus other things. And I base the things I say not just on theoryhammer but on experience as well.
Feel free to prove me wrong with your own semi-batreps though. ;)

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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#58 » Sep 13 2017 04:41

I am beginning to love the Kroot. I put them up front to harass a Baal Predator and keep it from getting into my back lines. I destroyed the Predator round 3, however, none of my kroot made it alive. I ended up in a draw (played an open war deck game. Supply cache.)

I had them in front of my Fire Warriors and Breachers. they took hits from all over the place and I had some exceptional save rolls. What I loved is that I kept his Sanguinary Priest and his Baal Predator from advancing so I could keep whittling him down. After my shooting phase, I was within 2 inches and could have charged his predator, but I thought if I did and he killed them in the melee, he would then be able to focus on my riptide and Stormsurge with his weapons. He ended up shooting them anyway but he couldn't charge my strike team. Instead, he charged at the chickens and killed them. Next round, Predator died along with his Death Company. after I cleared that side up, I was able to progress and be within 3" of the supply cache to draw. Tough matchup, but those sacrifices from the kroot kept the big stuff away long enough to unleash some good rolls.

I should also say those last 2 guys got wounds on the tank. Good rolls for them. I hope to get some more and start putting them to use.

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ghostancisco
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#59 » Sep 21 2017 07:21

Panzer wrote:What's there to say? I'm not the one claiming they're good here.


That's right, Im the one saying they have a purpose and I've come back after some test games to talk some more. I hope we can get along better (twice i've said your pathfinder angle is the one worth looking at) because after my test games I came to one conclusion that we can agree on. pathfinders are simply the bomb.com. I'm sure you'll be happy to hear that I still think kroot are good :biggrin: things got a little testy last time but i think we can improve the conversation and get to some conclusions. I hope you see that im not just some armchair scrub general and I really have come here to learn and discuss what i have learned.
Panzer wrote:3. Scouting ahead on a flank and charge something (*sigh*):
For that I'd much rather take any kind of the above mentioned Drones since they are WAY more durable so their chance to get there and to survive once they're there is much better (aka they can do their job better) while the Gun Drones actually deal a ton more damage than Kroot in melee+shooting ever could hope to do. Oh and they have the FLY keyword so they can just ignore terrain and intervening units and can even fall back and keep shooting if there's no need to bind the opponents unit anymore (or if they get countercharged and survive).

4. a mix of all the above:
Okay I give you that, Kroot can all of that at the same time (though I'd argue how valuable taking a unit for 3. is when our Battlesuits all can do that just fine...especially Flamer Crisis with Shield Drone support).
So how important are frail scouting ObSec infantry for us? We have tons of deep strike and infiltrate units and unless the enemy plays a hyper mobile army and gets first turn there shouldn't be a problem claiming objectives you'd reach with scout+regular move. And even if they were sitting on a valuable ObSec...I know only of extremely few other units that are easier to remove than Kroot.


I really fail to see what role Kroot are supposed to fill in a T'au army that isn't done better or at least just as well by other less exotic units that get often taken anyway.


Point 4 is what I have been trying to say all along, but i view their low cost paired with diversity as way too useful to pass up. I think you've summarized their capabilities well but you still don't see them as the useful screen that i have seen them be. Their scout move also allows them to push out your deepstrike bubble and they can almost always find terrain on the first turn. with your enemy focusing on the more powerful units they tend to wiggle their way into some pretty handy situations like stopping a unit from getting out of a transport to tying up shooty units that are out of position all the while adding in some wounds to push units into leadership trouble.

I really cant stress enough how multipurpose they are, tying up dreadnoughts, transports, and the like really allows you to play against an opponent who is missing a portion of their army missing for a turn or 2. at worst they are a cheap 10w speed bump that can deny space and move on objectives. at best they tie up more valuable units and push weaker units into leadership trouble all while denying space and scoring. pathfinders don't offer the same space denying that the kroot do, they offer a more withdrawn power and direct utility through the much needed marker lights.

So I listened to your point about the pathfinders and proxied up a few lists with a ton of them to fill in for my kroot units I have been taking. I took 2 squads of 9 with 3 railrifles and 3 squads of 6 with 2 ion rifles each, as well as another list thats a bunch of vanilla pathfinder, 5 squads of 5, to do exactly what i used my kroot for. my 2 games with the 5 squads w/rifles. IT WAS AWESOME. the other was super meh, pathfinders are not the best screening unit, not that good at all, with everybody and their mother happy to focus them and you need them for that juicy marker light support. extra marker lights for days and the special weapons give them a punching capability that is really something, im going to add another ghostkeel to my armies because of how well it did with all those marker lights. the kroot are the perfect cover for a ghostkeel/pathfinder flank and makes the risk of getting close with the 18inch range or 15 inch double tap, not risky at all.

and the shaper is the most useless model in our codex, if you run kroot and other things to support them like a ghostkeel, the ethereal give you some much needed resilience.
For the Gooder Great!

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#60 » Sep 26 2017 03:04

Setting off on a different path to the discussion we have been having - my point a while back about why larger units are good screens has been explained far better than I did with diagrams here http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/09/conscr ... more-13720

Now that article is about the dreaded conscripts just before they get nerfed but some of the casualty removal stuff also applies to 20-strong units of Kroot; just not quite as well as 20 just is not as good as 50. Still 20 is a lot better than 10 :D

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#61 » Sep 26 2017 03:15

Well I don't doubt that 20 are better than 10 but I doubt that 20 are better than 2x10. :P

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nic
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#62 » Sep 26 2017 03:29

Panzer wrote:Well I don't doubt that 20 are better than 10 but I doubt that 20 are better than 2x10. :P


Situationally they are better; much better. It is all to do with the casualty removal rules in 8th which you can definitely use to your advantage. The situation generally comes down to "I need to stop that assault short of it hitting my good stuff"

Against shooting with no following assault, not so much.

raven1840
Shas
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#63 » Oct 02 2017 06:20

If you take aun'va in a command bunker type role then his reroll of all morale test is handy with kroot to a degree.

Overall kroot need a fairly substantial buff in the codex to make them useful since you no longer have to target the closest unit unless it's the choice between character and unit. The fact that people still respond and play as if you do is an autopilot holdover from 7th.

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Panzer
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#64 » Oct 02 2017 06:49

raven1840 wrote:If you take aun'va in a command bunker type role then his reroll of all morale test is handy with kroot to a degree.

Overall kroot need a fairly substantial buff in the codex to make them useful since you no longer have to target the closest unit unless it's the choice between character and unit. The fact that people still respond and play as if you do is an autopilot holdover from 7th.

You never had to target the closest unit in 7th either.

raven1840
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#65 » Oct 02 2017 06:56

Fair enough, haven't played since 3rd edition until this edition. It was what I was informed about 7th. Clearly that info was incorrect.

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Shas
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Re: Kroot Carnivores article - early preview

Post#66 » Oct 02 2017 12:26

I am going to be honest, I haven't justified the expenditure of points on Kroot in 8th. Firewarriors are just able to accomplish so much as a multifaceted troop selections. With that said however, the number one reason I would want to field kroot however is as a Psychic Phase buffer. Because so many Psychic abilities deal out Mortal Wounds, the low armor seems to make it the optimal unit to absorb these attacks. The Scout ability allows them to move forward, presenting them as the closest unit for Smite attacks. I have been fielding Stealth Suits heavily, which end up being the closest unit and I don't think the Kroot would counter-act this. However I think with a more classic gunline style of play this would present a greater asset. If you get first turn you can run a Ethereal and/or Shaper to provide additional leadership support or provide a 6+ FnP which might keep them from being obliterated turn one. But I would be surprised if they last until turn 2.

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