Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#11 » Jun 17 2017 08:21

Actually, I think your into something here. Consider this; the drone port rule Drone Control Systems states that when a T'au Empire Infantry unit activates the docked drones, those drone may use that units BS in place of its own. There is no mention of for how long, such as "the turn they're activated", so in effect, you can get 4 marker drones with BS 2+ by deploying your Cadre Fireblade inside a drone port. Boom, that's 5 2+ marker lights per drone port. Nice.

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Heldericht
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#12 » Jun 17 2017 08:31

Czar Ziggy wrote:Actually, I think your into something here. Consider this; the drone port rule Drone Control Systems states that when a T'au Empire Infantry unit activates the docked drones, those drone may use that units BS in place of its own. There is no mention of for how long, such as "the turn they're activated", so in effect, you can get 4 marker drones with BS 2+ by deploying your Cadre Fireblade inside a drone port. Boom, that's 5 2+ marker lights per drone port. Nice.

Czar Ziggy


I did consider this. The problem is, the drones have to detach in order to get the bs2+ buff.

However once they detach your opponent can easily target and kill them. Would be a waste :(.

Thats the one big problem we have right now. Our markerlights are all on flimsy platforms.

Ash87
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#13 » Jun 17 2017 09:24

Just because Markers are flimsy doesn't mean they are useless.

I mean, one marker drone is 10 points. You can get 4 and a drone controller for 48 points, just a few points More than a Cadre, and they drop markers on a 4+. That is already more effective than a single cadre, since not only by average will they drop More markers, but they can move prior to doing so, whereas if the Cadre does, his +2 goes to +3, which reduces the chance it lands... Yeah.

The idea of using a drone port is probably the... "Best" solution here, but I would argue that it'd be better to use a firelight marksman, as opposed to a Cadre, in that situation, because it'd be half the price, and it wouldn't be tieing up a Cadre, who you could otherwise use, to boost some squads someplace (Because the aura ability of the Cadre, isn't exerted from the vehicle he's put into).

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#14 » Jun 17 2017 09:29

Heldericht wrote:
Czar Ziggy wrote:Actually, I think your into something here. Consider this; the drone port rule Drone Control Systems states that when a T'au Empire Infantry unit activates the docked drones, those drone may use that units BS in place of its own. There is no mention of for how long, such as "the turn they're activated", so in effect, you can get 4 marker drones with BS 2+ by deploying your Cadre Fireblade inside a drone port. Boom, that's 5 2+ marker lights per drone port. Nice.

Czar Ziggy


I did consider this. The problem is, the drones have to detach in order to get the bs2+ buff.

However once they detach your opponent can easily target and kill them. Would be a waste :(.

Thats the one big problem we have right now. Our markerlights are all on flimsy platforms.



Perhaps, but that will come down to how you use them. You'll still get at least one turn to use them, making it a lot easier to get that elusive 5+ marker result. And put them in cover. Woods and ruins still provide cover for drone so long as 50% of the models are obscured.

Czar Ziggy

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#15 » Jun 17 2017 09:31

gmaleron wrote:...why not focus on the Cadre Fireblade? For only 42pts. You get a character who hits on a 2+ meaning he can't be targeted if there are other units in front of him and taking 5 only costs 210 points and also would give us five drops which would allow us to put a lot of suit teams in reserve if we wanted to.


QimRas wrote:Unless you put then in a Fish


If you are going down this path, have you considered the firesight marksman? Yes, they are only BS3+, but to offset that they are a lot cheaper and get +2 when in cover. For very close to your same 210 points above, you could get 4 x firesight marksman and a devilfish with 2 drones. That's a single deployment drop, 4 semi reliable markerlights (especially if you're already re-rolling 1's), very resilient in cover and as long as the fish is lurking, they can't be targeted. Weapons that would normally kill firesights easily will be laughed off by the fish.

Of course, you could take a full squad of pathfinders in a fish for much cheaper, the trade off being they would be BS4+ and could be targeted. But to the topic of the OP, firesight marksman may be better than fireblades.

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#16 » Jun 18 2017 11:23

I've been looking at our Markerlight situation, and while I think the Fireblade is definitely a part of the solution to this problem, he's not the only one. This is what I'm going to try for my core support:

Cadre Fireblade
Darkstrider
10x Pathfinders w/ 3 Rail Rifles & 1 Grav Inhibitor Drone
2x Firesight Marksmen

Points: 280

Obviously you can get this down a little bit in terms of points. For pure markers you can easily save 57 points by dropping the Rail Rifles, but you lose out on some flexibility. As it stands this set puts out, on average, 6.5 Markerlight hits per turn, so you have some room to take losses and still put 5 marker hits on a target, or spread some around.

There's a lot of crossbuffing and synergy that happens with this setup that I really like. Firstly, Fireblade, Darkstrider, and the Pathfinders deploy together in cover.

Darkstrider grants the Pathfinders the Structural Analyser and Fighting Retreat. The Analyser is the reason for the Rail Rifles. Making it easier for those puppies to wound when they have AP-4 and a strong damage potential is quite nice. Fighting Retreat allows our unit to shoot if they Fall Back. As this is the primary source of markerlights for the army, I find this to be invaluable to help protect us from deep striking assaults meant to tie up our markerlights, should any of them survive the initial assault.

To help prevent them from actually getting charged, give the Pathfinders a cheap Grav Inhibitor Drone. If you are in suitable cover, that means any enemy charging you is doing so at -(2+d3)", a difficult charge to make for a deep striking unit at 9" away (If you roll a 1 on a d3, they need an 11 to be within 1").

The Cadre Fireblade adds further deterrent to any would-be chargers by upping our Overwatch with Volley Fire, since our Pathfinders will be firing 3 shots with their Carbines at 9" (or 12" with a pulse accelerator drone). That means we should average around 3 hits from our Pathfinders, plus 1 Rail Rifle hit, plus 1 more hit between the Fireblade and Darkstrider against any would-be chargers. Thats not necessarily enough to stop the charge on its own, but taken in hand with an already long charge due to cover + the grav inhibitor drone, it's just one more reason not to charge them.

The Firesights can deploy separately on flanks, but must also be in cover. So long as the cover grants a save, the Firesights are sitting on a 2+ save, and being characters they will be difficult to remove.

Pathfinders are still fragile and vulnerable to shooting, but they always have been. There's really no way around that, short of a Tidewall segment.

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Arka0415
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#17 » Jun 19 2017 12:51

JPThunda wrote:I've been looking at our Markerlight situation, and while I think the Fireblade is definitely a part of the solution to this problem, he's not the only one. This is what I'm going to try for my core support:

Cadre Fireblade
Darkstrider
10x Pathfinders w/ 3 Rail Rifles & 1 Grav Inhibitor Drone
2x Firesight Marksmen

Points: 280

...

There's a lot of crossbuffing and synergy that happens with this setup that I really like. Firstly, Fireblade, Darkstrider, and the Pathfinders deploy together in cover.


This Markerlight group is worth 6 Kill Points and outputs 11 Markerlight shots, of which you should expect to hit 6. It's also 280 points. For the same 280 points, you could invest in 35 Pathfinders, which could get you 17.5 Markerlight hits per turn. That's a lot though, so if you just want 6 Markerlight hits per turn, then field two 6-man squads of Pathfinders for 96 points.

Also, I wouldn't put a Fireblade with a Pathfinder squad. He'd increase the squad's number of shots from 14 to 21, bringing the expected number of overwatch hits from 2.3 to 3.5. For the Fireblade's 42 points, you could just add 5 more Pathfinders. This would give you 5 more Markerlights and 10 more overwatch shots, getting you 4 expected hits in overwatch, and 1.7 more Markerlight hits during the shooting phase. Synergy units, like Fireblades, are only viable if they can buff a large number of squads.

Anyway, there are very few circumstances where more Pathfinders isn't the answer. If you want more Markerlight hits, you need to just bring more Pathfinders.

JPThunda
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#18 » Jun 19 2017 12:59

Looking purely at the potential number of Markerlight hits, you're right, more Pathfinders is more points efficient, but that does not take into account how resilient a Cadre Fireblade is vs a unit of 5 Pathfinders (higher save, Character so can't be targeted directly, etc.) The same tradeoff applies to the Firesight Marksman, as his price tag is 3 Pathfinders but has similar tradeoffs in terms of resilience. That's why I advocate for a mix of resilient characters that are more difficult to remove with a larger unit of Pathfinders for bulk shots, especially when those characters can make Pathfinders harder to disrupt or remove.

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Arka0415
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#19 » Jun 19 2017 01:11

JPThunda wrote:Looking purely at the potential number of Markerlight hits, you're right, more Pathfinders is more points efficient, but that does not take into account how resilient a Cadre Fireblade is vs a unit of 5 Pathfinders (higher save, Character so can't be targeted directly, etc.) The same tradeoff applies to the Firesight Marksman, as his price tag is 3 Pathfinders but has similar tradeoffs in terms of resilience. That's why I advocate for a mix of resilient characters that are more difficult to remove with a larger unit of Pathfinders for bulk shots, especially when those characters can make Pathfinders harder to disrupt or remove.


This is true, the group would be much more durable. However, it's also quite vulnerable because the units are grouped up. Put the Fireblade with your Fire Warriors- you still get his BS2+ Markerlight and there's less KP density with the Pathfinder squad. Likewise, drop the Grav-Inhibitor Drone, as it's a 1W KP. That or, put 3-4 extra Drones with it for some added durability, but I wouldn't bother. Darkstrider would work well with the group.

Take the Fireblade away, and remove the Drone, and you have half the KP density with in the Pathfinder unit. Less of a priority target for your enemy. The Marksmen are durable, definitely, but... I still feel like you're paying points for his Drone-buffing abilities when you'd only be using him for the BS3+ Markerlight. Could still be worth it though.

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#20 » Jun 19 2017 04:32

Droneport for the 8-10 pathfinders?
Place the drones behind the droneport. So they only have line of sight to a low amount of targets this turn. They will be less likely targeted?

I really want to find a way to make some part of the Tidewalls usefull. And honestly pathfinders is one of the best scenarios i can think of But unfortunately its not so much as an army buff as it is having some control over my opponents target priorities and giving it a little extra padding to hopefully just soke up as much as possible. But thats still 3 killpoonts (killpoints seem to be the main bane :::( )

At which point we might as well take the suggestions of just more pathfinders.

I honestly think markerlights spread out over units and doing what we can to not lean so heavily on them is going to be our best layout.

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Arka0415
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#21 » Jun 19 2017 05:58

AleksandrGRC wrote:But thats still 3 killpoonts (killpoints seem to be the main bane


Yeah, this is the issue. We Tau already have an uphill battle in front of us, we can't hamper ourselves with 25+ KP in a normal list. Normally we've done really well in KP games, but a savvy player can target our Drones and score tons of KP in 1-2 turns. For me, no infantry squads of fewer than 5 models, no Drone squads of fewer than 4 models. The bigger the better if you can manage it. Solo deep strike Commanders should take 2 Drones, but that should be considered a desperate tactic.

AleksandrGRC wrote:I honestly think markerlights spread out over units and doing what we can to not lean so heavily on them is going to be our best layout.


Yeah, it looks like it. Keeping Markerlights spread out, so opponents can't target them. They might not make our accuracy much better (re-rolling ones is 1/12 more shots hitting), but they will prevent Ion weapons from overheating so much. Also, Seeker Missiles might... just might... be useful.

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#22 » Jun 19 2017 06:08

Arka0415 wrote:For me, no infantry squads of fewer than 5 models, no Drone squads of fewer than 4 models.

Well that would be pretty hard to do anyway since the only infantry squads with a lower minimum unit size than 5 are Vespid and Stealth Suits. :D

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#23 » Jun 19 2017 06:18

Spread em out. Makes em harder to kill. Like panzer said" Anything to anoy the enemy"

Seekers. one thing the markerlights got a buff in.
What platform though. The devilfish you might already be taking. Maybe longshot and friends.
Not seeing much love for the Pirhanna.
With needing volume Anything 10-20 wounds is going to just soak them up. Unless we are talking holding them back to do the last wound.
Or is our target mid level models. Like elite troops with one wound.
Getting 10+ seekers seems like a headache of a niche list.

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Arka0415
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#24 » Jun 19 2017 06:22

Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:For me, no infantry squads of fewer than 5 models, no Drone squads of fewer than 4 models.

Well that would be pretty hard to do anyway since the only infantry squads with a lower minimum unit size than 5 are Vespid and Stealth Suits. :D


Caught me thinking about old editions again! I forgot that Pathfinder unit size is 5 or more now. So definitely don't take infantry squads smaller than 5, 'cause it's not legal!

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#25 » Jun 19 2017 02:24

A Fireblade with a Drone port seems like a reasonable cost for reliable, if fragile, markerlights. Thats 5 B.S. 2+ Markerlights for 152 points, and so long as you shoot the Fireblade first and hit the drones are rerolling 1's to hit with theirs. It is 3 killpoints, as has been pointed out, but Tau have always suffered with killpoints due to our drones, especially when the drones were forced to disembark when a devilfish popped (a few editions back). Kill point struggles are really old hat for us.

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#26 » Jun 19 2017 03:30

For 152 points you could bring 19 Pathfinders and get an average of 9-10 markerlights per turn. It could be two squads and reduce the total kill points by 1.

I like the idea of using a Droneport to get good BS on markerdrones, but it seems inefficient for the purposes of putting markerlights up.


What if we put a Firesight Marksman (24) in a Droneport (60) with 4 Marker Drones (40) for a total of 124pts. It would still be cheaper to just take a bunch of Pathfinders, but this gives you the option to take Sniper Drones (just throw a drone controller onto a riptide/broadside) and park some Pathfinders with special weapons in the droneport. Maybe that's worth something?

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#27 » Jun 19 2017 03:50

I didnt catch that the drones need to disembark to use a model's BS.... that does hamper it a bit as I thought they had to remove the platform to remove the drones if we wanted. Do the drones shoot at their regular BS when still embarked on the port?

The question to me then comes down to if the drone port durable enough to be a legit transport to house some firewarriors/pathfinders. I was going to put 9 firewarriors and Fireblade in the port for 1 drop and hoping on 5 BS2+ markerlights and a platform in the center of my gunline that is more or less an open-topped rhino. If that can last a few turns and provide marker support I think its interesting. If people kill the drones quickly and chew threw the 10wound transport quickly its a complete waste...

Seems like early reports have been saying our devilfishes "can" be durable in some games. The droneport is weaker but in the same ballpark...

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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#28 » Jun 19 2017 04:10

Bolter&Rail wrote:I didnt catch that the drones need to disembark to use a model's BS.... that does hamper it a bit as I thought they had to remove the platform to remove the drones if we wanted. Do the drones shoot at their regular BS when still embarked on the port?

The question to me then comes down to if the drone port durable enough to be a legit transport to house some firewarriors/pathfinders. I was going to put 9 firewarriors and Fireblade in the port for 1 drop and hoping on 5 BS2+ markerlights and a platform in the center of my gunline that is more or less an open-topped rhino. If that can last a few turns and provide marker support I think its interesting. If people kill the drones quickly and chew threw the 10wound transport quickly its a complete waste...

Seems like early reports have been saying our devilfishes "can" be durable in some games. The droneport is weaker but in the same ballpark...


Tidewalls now can pass over terrain and even use some kinds of cover!

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