The MantaCore

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Lechai Skull
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The MantaCore

Post#1 » Jun 18 2017 10:25

For those wondering about list-building. Every army should involve the Manta-Core (IMO)

Details Below

*edited based on feedback*
    Commander (3 x Fusion, 1 x plasma) + 2 x Gun Drones.
    3 x Crisis Suits (8 x Plasma, 1 x Drone Controller) + 6 x Gun Drones.
    Tactical Gun Drones x 12

Total Cost = 529 points

Deployment:
odds are, your not going to have first turn. Deploy your drones behind LOS terrain (if possible) on a flank. On your turn move your drones wherever desired.
Plop your manta units infront of them as pictured. Inverted if you expect a heavy counter
Image


What this gives you
3x fusion shots hitting on 2+ (range 18)
9x Plasma shots hitting on 4+ (range 13-24) or 18x Plasma shots hitting on 4+ (range 12)
80x Pulse shots hitting on 4+ (range 18)

It also gives you a counter-assault screen vs anything that survives the barrage of fire
Your commander is bubble wrapped so cant be sniped, protecting the drone controller.
Plenty of ablative wounds for the suits.
As only the drone unit starts on the table, they cant be 1st turn alphastriked.
Plenty of points left over for whatever goodies you want to bring.
Its only 3 units (towards deployment).
Everything can overwatch each other (80 x S5 and 18 plasma shots in overwatch will scare any assault units).

Feedback welcome
edit* i may not have permission to post images, hence the link*
Last edited by Lechai Skull on Jun 20 2017 09:31, edited 3 times in total.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#2 » Jun 18 2017 10:49

With all those Drones near the Crisis Team, why not put the DC on one of the Crisis suits and put another Fusion on the Commander? Same aura effect, practically as durable through ablative drone wounds, and you trade BS4+ for BS2+ at little to no additional cost.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#3 » Jun 18 2017 10:58

Unusualsuspect wrote:With all those Drones near the Crisis Team, why not put the DC on one of the Crisis suits and put another Fusion on the Commander? Same aura effect, practically as durable through ablative drone wounds, and you trade BS4+ for BS2+ at little to no additional cost.


Yep, already considered that. But as the controller is very important to the build i put it on the commander as he is a lot more survivable with additional wounds and being a character. Its probably just as viable to make that change for the same points though.

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Arka0415
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#4 » Jun 19 2017 12:36

Lechai Skull wrote:Yep, already considered that. But as the controller is very important to the build i put it on the commander as he is a lot more survivable with additional wounds and being a character. Its probably just as viable to make that change for the same points though.


I like your list idea, but this point doesn't make much sense. The Commander's BS2+ is an amazing gift to waste by giving himaDrone Controller. And, the XV8 team is in fact much more survivable than the Commander, at 9W compared to the Commander's 6W.

Definitely give the XV8 Shas'vre a Drone Controller, and give the Commander another Fusion Blaster. Or, just drop the Drone Controller altogether and go for more Plasma Rifles.

EDIT: Though, I do agree that all competetive Tau lists should include a 4xFB Commander and a 3xPR XV8 Team. However, I would not give the Commander any Drones, unless you plan on running him far from your lines where that little bit of durability is desperately needed. Remember, that's two wounds and it's worth a kill point. A few bored Tactical Marines could easily score that.
Last edited by Arka0415 on Jun 19 2017 12:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#5 » Jun 19 2017 12:53

Arka0415 wrote:
Lechai Skull wrote:Yep, already considered that. But as the controller is very important to the build i put it on the commander as he is a lot more survivable with additional wounds and being a character. Its probably just as viable to make that change for the same points though.


I like your list idea, but this point doesn't make much sense. The Commander's BS2+ is an amazing gift to waste by giving himaDrone Controller. And, the XV8 team is in fact much more survivable than the Commander, at 9W compared to the Commander's 6W.

Definitely give the XV8 Shas'vre a Drone Controller, and give the Commander another Fusion Blaster. Or, just drop the Drone Controller altogether and go for more Plasma Rifles.


I know it doesn't allow you to take drones, what i WAS saying that as you start taking heaps of damage, its going to be a lot easier to bubblewrap your single commander than it is 3 crisis suits. It's just a matter of choice really. If you want extra firepower, put it on the crisis suit. If you want a bit more flexibility, put it on the commander. The above example was the latter.

The only concession i will make, is that more drones you lose, the less important the controller becomes. But even with only 3/20 drones remaining, its still 12 shots hitting on 4's almost identical to a stormsurges CRS in terms of output.

cookiez
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#6 » Jun 19 2017 01:31

Absolutely agree. Right now I'm trying 2x Commander (4FB + 4MP, but I would like to try 3x MP + ATS) and 4x Crisis (9x plasma + 2x FB + DC) and it works really well. The best thing about the Manta Core, as you've named it, is that your opponent can't really do anything due to the relatively high range of Tau weaponry. With marker support, practically every high threat unit is put down turn 1.

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Arka0415
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#7 » Jun 19 2017 01:48

cookiez wrote:Absolutely agree. Right now I'm trying 2x Commander (4FB + 4MP, but I would like to try 3x MP + ATS) and 4x Crisis (9x plasma + 2x FB + DC) and it works really well. The best thing about the Manta Core, as you've named it, is that your opponent can't really do anything due to the relatively high range of Tau weaponry. With marker support, practically every high threat unit is put down turn 1.


It's funny that they added the 50% deployment rule to counter cheesy null deployments. Ha, we Tau will put 100 points on the table and 1400 points in space! Good enough for me :)

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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#8 » Jun 19 2017 02:52

Arka0415 wrote:
cookiez wrote:Absolutely agree. Right now I'm trying 2x Commander (4FB + 4MP, but I would like to try 3x MP + ATS) and 4x Crisis (9x plasma + 2x FB + DC) and it works really well. The best thing about the Manta Core, as you've named it, is that your opponent can't really do anything due to the relatively high range of Tau weaponry. With marker support, practically every high threat unit is put down turn 1.


It's funny that they added the 50% deployment rule to counter cheesy null deployments. Ha, we Tau will put 100 points on the table and 1400 points in space! Good enough for me :)

Especially because we can do pseudo null-deployment with Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel. Those don't get placed in reserves, but they get replaced after deployment. :D

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Lechai Skull
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#9 » Jun 19 2017 03:23

Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
cookiez wrote:Absolutely agree. Right now I'm trying 2x Commander (4FB + 4MP, but I would like to try 3x MP + ATS) and 4x Crisis (9x plasma + 2x FB + DC) and it works really well. The best thing about the Manta Core, as you've named it, is that your opponent can't really do anything due to the relatively high range of Tau weaponry. With marker support, practically every high threat unit is put down turn 1.


It's funny that they added the 50% deployment rule to counter cheesy null deployments. Ha, we Tau will put 100 points on the table and 1400 points in space! Good enough for me :)

Especially because we can do pseudo null-deployment with Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel. Those don't get placed in reserves, but they get replaced after deployment. :D


That and stealth suits are actually useful now. Throw a 2 point velocity tracker on 1 of them and the whole unit is BS 3+ vs anything with the 'fly' keyword

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#10 » Jun 19 2017 03:43

At a similar power level I have been moving towards

Commander, 4 x Fusion blaster
12 Vespid Stingwings
Stealth Team, Drone Controller
8 x Drone
8 x Drone

Very similar concept. So far I am really liking Stealth suits as carriers for the Drone Controller, an opponent is almost always making a mistake by trying to target them - given that I will offload wounds onto the drones anyway.

Vespid are limited to a single weapon but for targets that weapon is good against they seem to be outperforming Plasma Crisis teams for me. More shots, more mobility for late-game objective grabbing.

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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#11 » Jun 19 2017 03:51

Lechai Skull wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
It's funny that they added the 50% deployment rule to counter cheesy null deployments. Ha, we Tau will put 100 points on the table and 1400 points in space! Good enough for me :)

Especially because we can do pseudo null-deployment with Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel. Those don't get placed in reserves, but they get replaced after deployment. :D


That and stealth suits are actually useful now. Throw a 2 point velocity tracker on 1 of them and the whole unit is BS 3+ vs anything with the 'fly' keyword

You can do a lot with Stealth Suits.
Velocity Tracker for some anit-air (althought their weapons are fairly short ranged for that taks), Markerlight, Drone Controller and Marker Drones for a Suit based Markerlight source, Homing Beacon for some Crisis fun (either flamer/FB or anything else and then charge a second unit), or as simple annoying unit with ATS on Burst Cannons and Shield Gen on Fusion Blaster.
One of my absolute favorite units this edition. I liked them before but now they are finally worth their points as well. :D

AleksandrGRC
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#12 » Jun 19 2017 04:05

Panzer/others. What is your opinion of using stealth suits (supported) as the screening force to recieve charges when moving second or doing gunlines.

I feel they will do a good job of it (on paper) but will it be a good enough job when considering not using things like infiltrate to its fullest or not using potentially better units.

A much shorter version of what i commented before
Is I propose stealth suits with a fireblade (or any photon grenade source) and drones behind. Is EWO on stealths a bad idea? I also feel a homing beacon is still usefull in this roll of gunline setup.

Also another question i have that relates to why im thinking this.
If i fall back, With fly, if i meet the further away than 1" as well as keeping proper distance from other units rules. Can i technically jump over and move forward during a fall back?

So thats like three questions, kinda.

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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#13 » Jun 19 2017 04:24

AleksandrGRC wrote:Panzer/others. What is your opinion of using stealth suits (supported) as the screening force to recieve charges when moving second or doing gunlines.

I feel they will do a good job of it (on paper) but will it be a good enough job when considering not using things like infiltrate to its fullest or not using potentially better units.

A much shorter version of what i commented before
Is I propose stealth suits with a fireblade (or any photon grenade source) and drones behind. Is EWO on stealths a bad idea? I also feel a homing beacon is still usefull in this roll of gunline setup.

Also another question i have that relates to why im thinking this.
If i fall back, With fly, if i meet the further away than 1" as well as keeping proper distance from other units rules. Can i technically jump over and move forward during a fall back?

So thats like three questions, kinda.

Stealth Suits as screening unit work....okay-ish. They sure can soak some damage with nearby Drones but they are usually just too small.
The day before yesterday they got charged by a unit of Infiltrators (or Ruststalker? The ones with mortal wounds on 6s) and he rolled a LOT of 6s. I sacrificed my two nearby Drones and 1 1/2 suit because I got kinda lucky with the saves (two of my 3 had Shield Gen).
So yes they can take a charge. However they were on their own and he only charged them because they had yet to deploy their Homing Beacon. If they were trying to screen another unit, he could just have walked past them.

EWO is not a bad idea but I don't think it would do that much. A Stealth Suit units damage output is not that big to begin with, but it could be a nice mind game on a Fusion Blaster suit.

Yes you can fall back in any direction as long as you don't end up within 1" of any enemy unit.
Last edited by Panzer on Jun 19 2017 05:01, edited 1 time in total.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#14 » Jun 19 2017 04:54

"could have just walked past them" kinda kills my ideas lol.

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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#15 » Jun 19 2017 05:00

Exactly. :D

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Arka0415
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#16 » Jun 19 2017 05:22

AleksandrGRC wrote:"could have just walked past them" kinda kills my ideas lol.


Stealthsuits are a durable unit, both to shooting and (oddly) assault. However, a good screening unit isn't defined by it's durabilty, but by it's ability to prevent charges on valuable units. So you need three characteristics on a good screening unit. The first is coverage: a large number of bases strung out in a line. By placing this sort of unit in front of a more valuable unit, you can block charges much in the way a speed bump slows a car. It cannot stop it, but it also cannot be avoided, so it buys you valuable time. The second characteristic is having strong overwatch- your screening unit may not do much shooting, but having good overwatch is great since the unit is charge bait. Third, durability is a bonus- if you have the other two, durability is a nice addition.

Kroot have coverage, but they're not too good in overwatch, and they're not durable. Stealthsuits are durable and have decent overwatch, but no coverage since they're expensive units usually in small squads.

Drones, on the other hand... they're durable, cheap, have fearsome overwatch, and can be strung out for really effective coverage!! If only they came with Flamers...

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Arka0415
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#17 » Jun 19 2017 05:28

Panzer wrote:You can do a lot with Stealth Suits.
Velocity Tracker for some anit-air (althought their weapons are fairly short ranged for that taks), Markerlight, Drone Controller and Marker Drones for a Suit based Markerlight source, Homing Beacon for some Crisis fun (either flamer/FB or anything else and then charge a second unit), or as simple annoying unit with ATS on Burst Cannons and Shield Gen on Fusion Blaster.
One of my absolute favorite units this edition. I liked them before but now they are finally worth their points as well. :D


Stealthsuits are great, no doubt about it. The only problem is, they don't bring anything you can't already bring scads of. They bring S5 shooting, but we can get that just about anywhere. I guess the difficulty in hitting them is a great addition though- durable S5 firepower is pretty uncommon.

Though, putting the Shield Generator on the Fusion Blaster seems a little risky! You can let a Stealthsuit die to a Lascannon blast, or you can risk losing your all-important Fusion Blaster.

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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#18 » Jun 19 2017 06:03

Arka0415 wrote:Drones, on the other hand... they're durable, cheap, have fearsome overwatch, and can be strung out for really effective coverage!! If only they came with Flamers...

Drones with Flamer! Now that is my new favorite wishlisting thing! :D

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:You can do a lot with Stealth Suits.
Velocity Tracker for some anit-air (althought their weapons are fairly short ranged for that taks), Markerlight, Drone Controller and Marker Drones for a Suit based Markerlight source, Homing Beacon for some Crisis fun (either flamer/FB or anything else and then charge a second unit), or as simple annoying unit with ATS on Burst Cannons and Shield Gen on Fusion Blaster.
One of my absolute favorite units this edition. I liked them before but now they are finally worth their points as well. :D


Stealthsuits are great, no doubt about it. The only problem is, they don't bring anything you can't already bring scads of. They bring S5 shooting, but we can get that just about anywhere. I guess the difficulty in hitting them is a great addition though- durable S5 firepower is pretty uncommon.

Though, putting the Shield Generator on the Fusion Blaster seems a little risky! You can let a Stealthsuit die to a Lascannon blast, or you can risk losing your all-important Fusion Blaster.

The advantage Stealth Suits have is being Infantry with a 3+ save. Means they have a 2+ save in terrain. Any other Infantry has a 4+ save and anything else with a 3+ save is not Infantry. On top of that the -1 to-hit and the enemy will hate to dedicate firepower to them.
That also makes them an interesting choice for a secondary markerlight source and the Fusion Blaster is just enough to make it sting when he hits so he can't really completely ignore them either.
Them being infantry also allows them to pick up the relic etc. (which is REALLY strong with their infiltrate if you get first turn).

The S5 shooting is not the reason you take them. It's just what they come with and if you don't have anything better to give, give them ATS to make it a bit more annoying. Or a Shield Gen to make it even more annoying to shoot at them. Or add a Gun/Shield Drone somewhere.

The Shield Gen on Fusion Blaster is only meant as last resort after all your BC Suits and Drones are gone obviously. He doesn't really need anything else so it's just as good as most other options and the enemy will hate having to shoot at him if he's the only one remaining.
Right now since Shield Gens are so cheap and we shoot like crap I feel like I should just do everything to annoy the enemy and make it harder for him to kill me. :P

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