Keeping Longstrike Alive

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Arka0415
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Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#1 » Jul 02 2017 07:12

So, here's a thought I had after seeing the FAQ. Longstrike is even better now, and keeping him alive and shooting is of paramount importance. It's hard for him to get cover, but he can move and shoot at full BS which is nice. Drones can't tank wounds for him.

Bodyguards can though. However, Bodyguards come in groups of three, which is inefficient... unless you take an under-strength Bodyguard with only one model in the squad. You could take a Bodyguard with a Stimulant Injector, and maybe a pair of Missile Pods to keep him relevant. Or give him a Drone Controller and have him buff some Marker Drones. If you really want to have fun, give him a little pack of Forgeworld's repair drones to repair him after the enemy is done shooting. Is this an efficient use of points? Probably not. But I think this is the cheapest way to keep wounds of Longstrike.

Anyway, this is just one stupid idea. Another would be to make Longstrike your Warlord and give him Tenacious Survivor, but that just makes him even more of a priority target.

Any other ideas about keeping Longstrike in the fight longer?

knute
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#2 » Jul 02 2017 07:20

Arka0415 wrote:So, here's a thought I had after seeing the FAQ. Longstrike is even better now, and keeping him alive and shooting is of paramount importance. It's hard for him to get cover, but he can move and shoot at full BS which is nice. Drones can't tank wounds for him.

Bodyguards can though. However, Bodyguards come in groups of three, which is inefficient... unless you take an under-strength Bodyguard with only one model in the squad. You could take a Bodyguard with a Stimulant Injector, and maybe a pair of Missile Pods to keep him relevant. Or give him a Drone Controller and have him buff some Marker Drones. If you really want to have fun, give him a little pack of Forgeworld's repair drones to repair him after the enemy is done shooting. Is this an efficient use of points? Probably not. But I think this is the cheapest way to keep wounds of Longstrike.

Anyway, this is just one stupid idea. Another would be to make Longstrike your Warlord and give him Tenacious Survivor, but that just makes him even more of a priority target.

Any other ideas about keeping Longstrike in the fight longer?


I think it depends on what else is in your list. If you manage to fit a Stormsurge into the list, that might be higher on your opponent's target priority list :-p

But otherwise, it may be of some use to take a squad of bodyguards with some supporting drones (maybe marker drones since you'll likely want them to serve as fire support) especially if you expect to face things like lascannon or lascannon type weapons being spammed as the wounds are converted into single mortal wounds.

However one question I have is whether you can then allocate the mortal wound to a nearby drone. That would be verging on uber cheesy, to me at least, but what do y'all think? I think RAW it works that way because after the bodyguard unit suffers a mortal wound it still has to be allocated, and you can choose to allocate that wound to a nearby drone unit.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#3 » Jul 02 2017 07:24

I always make longstrike my warlord for the FNP ability, and with 14 wounds there is a bigger chance of it going off.

Hasn't come back to bite me... yet

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boomwolf
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#4 » Jul 02 2017 07:50

Yea, longstrike is getting bullseyed anyways, making him the warlord don't really add any more heat then it already has.

Getting him some cover is nice, if you manage to pull it off.
And being a vehicle with fly, if you manage to get a good ruin, you can be outright annoying by placing him in a position nothing can assault it, as nothing can physically fit on the same level with it to get into range.

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Arka0415
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#5 » Jul 02 2017 09:44

On second thought, I don't think the Bodyguard idea works. After all, the Bodyguard takes the whole damage, not a single mortal wound. So if a Lascannon hits Longstrike, it would just vaporize the Bodyguard instead. Which is an advantage I guess, but it's not the same as passing a wound off to a drone.

knute wrote:However one question I have is whether you can then allocate the mortal wound to a nearby drone. That would be verging on uber cheesy, to me at least, but what do y'all think? I think RAW it works that way because after the bodyguard unit suffers a mortal wound it still has to be allocated, and you can choose to allocate that wound to a nearby drone unit.


I don't think it works this way, since the wounds are transferred at different steps in the damage resolution process.

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Panzer
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#6 » Jul 03 2017 12:58

That's wrong. Bodyguards take a Mortal wound like any other bodyguard unit in the game. So each suit could potentially tank 3 Lascannon shots.

So since it would be smarter for the enemy to shoot at them directly as long as they are around, I'd still take some Drones with them. They won't be able to pass around the Mortal wound they'd get by protecting Longstrike but they can let the Drones tank the shots that are directly directed at them.
Should make for a VERY frustrating unit to take down without getting close. Which is another reason for Drones since they make it harder for enemy reserves to drop near them.

So now that it's decided that Drones are a good idea the question is what Drones to take.
Shield Drones would've been my go-to Drone for such a unit before the FAQ...now I'm not so sure anymore. The 4++ would only really help them against long range weapons with low AP like our Missile Pods which is a very narrow use.
Gun Drones are too short ranged to do much most of the game, however they'd make it even less attractive to put reserves close to them of course.
Marker Drones would actually be quite useful there thanks to their range.

So it looks like Gun or Marker Drones. Which makes it clearer what kind of wargear to take with the Bodyguards themselves.
A Drone Controller would be a must-have there for obvious reasons. Missile Pods as well. So the last question would be regarding the other two suits....a third Missile Pod, ATS, Stim Injector or EWO (for just 4 S7 AP-1 D1d3 shots each).
Imo if you go with Gun Drones you don't need the EWO and since you already made it pretty unattractive to shoot at Longstrike and have Drones to tank the damage of your Suits you won't need the Stim Injector. So to make the unit look more threatening I'd go with ATS (and because I prefer the look of 2 weapons over 3 weapons on Crisis).
If you go with Marker Drones, then the EWO becomes a real option though.

So what does the math say?
A formation of Longstrike, 3 Bodyguards and 6 Gun Drones would cost us 573 points. 348 points of that are for Longstrikes protection, 24 S5 shots at 18" and 8 S7 AP-2 D1d3 + 4 S7 AP-1 D1d3 shots at 36".
That's quite an investment but depending on how many heavy weapons the enemy has possibly worth it.


tl;dr either take Longstrike on his own or go all-out with protection and be prepared to base a big part of your army around such a formation.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#7 » Jul 03 2017 01:08

unfortunately panzer, i think arka is right.

Look at the rules for the bodyguard.

Roll a D6 each time a friendly <SEPT> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit. On a 2+, a model from this unit can intercept that hit - the CHARACTER does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound.

It says whenever they LOSE a wound. not when they ARE wounded.

It mainly because of GW's idiotic terminology and not clearly differentiating between damage and wounds.

That way, they roll, hit, wound, fail save, fail warlord FNP trait THEN Longstrike loses wounds(s). Any number of this 'damage' can then be farmed off to bodyguards on a 2+ each, however these mortal wounds cannot be redirected to drones, because drones use saviour protocols between the wound and armour save steps, which have long passed.

The only real option here is to take a single undersized squad of 1 bodyguard who can take 2 mortal wounds per turn, and then give him 2 units of technical drones to keep patching him back up.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#8 » Jul 03 2017 01:20

Actually a better way of doing it.

Undersized bodyguard unit of 1 model. 2xMP and Stim with 2 x marker drones and a unit of 2 technical drones.

Total cost: bodyguard 98, marker drones 20, technical drones 32 = 150 points.

The bodyguard tanks 2 shots per round and these mortal wounds can be prevented because of stim on a 6+, the marker drones and technical drones keep him alive (a bit) and he still contributes with his 2 missilepods.

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Miond
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#9 » Jul 03 2017 01:32

That wasn't quite what Panzer said.

The drones are there to discourage deepstrike and equivalents due to the larger footprint and to make the bodyguards more resilient when targeted directly, no to pass off wounds from Longstrike via the bodyguards.

Because of multidamage wounds being passed off to the bodyguards as single mortal wounds, so they are fairly survivable if Longstrike is the target.
Therefore a smart opponent would target the bodyguards first with multidamage weapons to remove them, which is where the drones come in.

Theoretically anyway...

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#10 » Jul 03 2017 01:40

Miond wrote:That wasn't quite what Panzer said.

The drones are there to discourage deepstrike and equivalents due to the larger footprint and to make the bodyguards more resilient when targeted directly, no to pass off wounds from Longstrike via the bodyguards.

Because of multidamage wounds being passed off to the bodyguards as single mortal wounds, so they are fairly survivable if Longstrike is the target.
Therefore a smart opponent would target the bodyguards first with multidamage weapons to remove them, which is where the drones come in.

Theoretically anyway...


Bodyguards don't convert D6 into a single mortal wound!

For example: If a lascannon hits Longstrike for 4 damage then that's 4 dice rolls. On a 2+ each one becomes a mortal wound on a bodyguard. its not a straight failed wound into a mortal wound. Its for EACH wound lost.

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Panzer
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#11 » Jul 03 2017 01:49

Oh wow you're right. Derp wording on GWs part there. Guess Bodyguards are useless then since the wounds they'd actually want to take would kill them + possibly still damage the unit to guard.

Like if a Lascannon ends up doing 6 damage. Normally it would fry a Suit and that's it. Now you have to throw two Suits at it or it punches straight through one of the Suits and still does 3 damage to whoever they try to protect...wtf.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#12 » Jul 03 2017 02:29

Panzer wrote:Oh wow you're right. Derp wording on GWs part there. Guess Bodyguards are useless then since the wounds they'd actually want to take would kill them + possibly still damage the unit to guard.

Like if a Lascannon ends up doing 6 damage. Normally it would fry a Suit and that's it. Now you have to throw two Suits at it or it punches straight through one of the Suits and still does 3 damage to whoever they try to protect...wtf.


Yeah, i think this is one of those (lets quickly convert everything into 8E) situations where the 7E application doesn't actually translate into 8E at all.

In 8E, the 'character' keyword will protect you better than a bodyguard can anyway (except for longstrike).

Btw you wouldn't necessarily have to fry the bodyguard. If you had a commander with a bodyguard behind him, and the commander takes a lascannon to the face. If the commander had 4 wounds remaining and the lascannon rolls for 5 damage, you could elect to take 2 mortal wounds on the bodyguard and the remainder on the commander, leaving both commander and bodyguard on 1 wound each. Still alive to keep shooting!

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Panzer
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#13 » Jul 03 2017 02:50

Lechai Skull wrote:Btw you wouldn't necessarily have to fry the bodyguard. If you had a commander with a bodyguard behind him, and the commander takes a lascannon to the face. If the commander had 4 wounds remaining and the lascannon rolls for 5 damage, you could elect to take 2 mortal wounds on the bodyguard and the remainder on the commander, leaving both commander and bodyguard on 1 wound each. Still alive to keep shooting!

Yeah that actually makes sense. Not that it makes the application of Bodyguards in their current form much better though. To me they are a dead unit until that rule gets re-worded.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#14 » Jul 03 2017 04:20

Panzer wrote: To me they are a dead unit until that rule gets re-worded.


Yep, no-one will use them, unless they had BS3+ of course

knute
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#15 » Jul 03 2017 06:05

I will say this, I think the current wording is not what was intended, and I think this is another issue that should be brought to GWs attention. It doesn't make sense for drones to have a better "bodyguard" ability than actual bodyguards.

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Panzer
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#16 » Jul 03 2017 06:08

knute wrote:I will say this, I think the current wording is not what was intended, and I think this is another issue that should be brought to GWs attention. It doesn't make sense for drones to have a better "bodyguard" ability than actual bodyguards.

Already posted at their Facebook page about this as well. though it helps if more do it of course.

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Arka0415
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#17 » Jul 03 2017 09:11

knute wrote:I will say this, I think the current wording is not what was intended, and I think this is another issue that should be brought to GWs attention. It doesn't make sense for drones to have a better "bodyguard" ability than actual bodyguards.


Glad to see my reading was right, but this is a good question. It looks like you roll the 2+ per point of inflicted damage, I guess? Are Bodyguards intercepting a partial Lascannon beam? Would love to see a ruling on this.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Keeping Longstrike Alive

Post#18 » Jul 03 2017 09:26

I had a look and it seems the rules for bodyguards are consistent across index's/factions/armies

Each wound taken = Mortal wound to bodyguard.

I'd say they wrote the rule before implementing the multi damage weapons.

It gets even worse for space marine Honour Guard. If a character gets hit and takes the full 6 points of damage, they have to throw 6 marines in front of the lascannon/fusion before they can stop it.
Or we just use 1 drone....

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