XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
User avatar
StealthKnightSteg
Shas'Saal
Posts: 145
Contact:

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#19 » Jul 17 2017 05:34

I see a few people here already talking about having used or thinking about using a group of 5 XV8 suits.. That is making use of the underpowered rule there.. Else you would need to take 3 or 6.
You guys seriously want to abuse that rule? :sad:

I do really wonder if it's worth abusing such a rule in favour of WAAC playing and thus minimalizing your opponents that don't want to play you anymore for abusing the rules.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#20 » Jul 17 2017 05:37

StealthKnightSteg wrote:I see a few people here already talking about having used or thinking about using a group of 5 XV8 suits.. That is making use of the underpowered rule there.. Else you would need to take 3 or 6.
You guys seriously want to abuse that rule? :sad:

I do really wonder if it's worth abusing such a rule in favour of WAAC playing and thus minimalizing your opponents that don't want to play you anymore for abusing the rules.

That's not right. You can add "up to" three more battlesuits etc. So 5 is perfectly viable.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#21 » Jul 17 2017 05:54

StealthKnightSteg wrote:I see a few people here already talking about having used or thinking about using a group of 5 XV8 suits.. That is making use of the underpowered rule there.. Else you would need to take 3 or 6.
You guys seriously want to abuse that rule? :sad:

I do really wonder if it's worth abusing such a rule in favour of WAAC playing and thus minimalizing your opponents that don't want to play you anymore for abusing the rules.


Panzer is correct that you can take as many as you like between 3 and 9. However, for the purpose of Power Level games, you are penalizd if you don't take 3, 6, or 9 battlesuits as you pay a extra points for "under-strength" units. In regular Points games though, squads of 4 or 7 battlesuits are perfectly okay!

For me, as an old Tau traditionalist, I'm a big fan of keeping XV8 squads at a fixed 3 suits! Gotta have that fluffy ta'ro'cha!

Edited for clarity.
Last edited by Arka0415 on Jul 17 2017 05:58, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Czar Ziggy
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 549
Contact:

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#22 » Jul 17 2017 05:56

The 3 or 6 squad size is for the narrative play selection because of power levels. For matched play, you can have between 3 and 9 only 0aying the points for what you take. So 5 is perfectly fine for matched play.

Czar Ziggy

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#23 » Jul 17 2017 05:56

Arka0415 wrote:
StealthKnightSteg wrote:I see a few people here already talking about having used or thinking about using a group of 5 XV8 suits.. That is making use of the underpowered rule there.. Else you would need to take 3 or 6.
You guys seriously want to abuse that rule? :sad:

I do really wonder if it's worth abusing such a rule in favour of WAAC playing and thus minimalizing your opponents that don't want to play you anymore for abusing the rules.


Panzer is correct that you can take as many as you like between 3 and 9. However, for the purpose of Power Level games, you are limited to 3, 6, or 9, as you pay a points penalty for "under-strength" units. In regular Points games though, squads of 4 or 7 battlesuits are perfectly okay!

That's not true either.
Nothing says that you have to always take the max model number or fix steps inbetween for a unit in Power Level games.
It just doesn't make much sense to take less than 6 or 9 since the Power Level raises for each threshold you pass and not for the actual models you take.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#24 » Jul 17 2017 06:00

Panzer wrote:Nothing says that you have to always take the max model number or fix steps inbetween for a unit in Power Level games.


Thanks, my wording was unclear. Fixed in my original post. That said, while you can take numbers other than 3, 6, or 9 in Power Level games, it's more a "you'd be stupid not to" situation :P

User avatar
StealthKnightSteg
Shas'Saal
Posts: 145
Contact:

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#25 » Jul 17 2017 06:25

Ah yes my bad, understrength units rule only applies for under the minimum here due to the wording..
I had my mind still stuck in AoS terms as there you have to pay per multiples of the minimun units size.

Though my argument for using the understrength rule to get some tactical benefit out of it for WAAC purpose and thus not playing the game for fun towards your opponent still stands. (If in this case you would use 1 or 2 XV8's if at all this would give a benefit...)

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#26 » Jul 17 2017 06:34

StealthKnightSteg wrote:Though my argument for using the understrength rule to get some tactical benefit out of it for WAAC purpose and thus not playing the game for fun towards your opponent still stands. (If in this case you would use 1 or 2 XV8's if at all this would give a benefit...)


Here I totally agree with you. It is technically legal to bring a single under-minimum-strength unit, but... man that's very much WAAC. 4 Pathfinders maybe is okay (old squad size having changed) but otherwise lots of room for abuse.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#27 » Jul 17 2017 06:43

Yeah I agree. Especially with Crisis. Before I bring a single understrength unit of Crisis I'd rather bash some bitz on it and call it a Commander (not just because the Commander is better but just to use the model legally ^^)

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#28 » Jul 17 2017 12:45

Panzer wrote:Yeah I agree. Especially with Crisis. Before I bring a single understrength unit of Crisis I'd rather bash some bitz on it and call it a Commander (not just because the Commander is better but just to use the model legally ^^)


Which puts newer players in the awkward position of having to choose between 3 crisis suits or 1-3 commanders..

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#29 » Jul 17 2017 01:41

Sure they do have that "problem". But it's not a model problem since they'd have to buy those models in the first place anyway so they could just buy the Commander models instead.
Also it's not like Crisis are completely useless. There are people who have great success with bigger Crisis units loaded up with Drones. ;)

User avatar
Dark Hope
Gue'La
Gue'La
Posts: 99

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#30 » Jul 19 2017 09:43

Underscore units from what I've heard won't be allowed in official tournaments.

As for mathhammering paper vs play, I'd have to say it's not looking at the bigger picture. There are many factors on the battlefield, and pumping out damage is only one of them. Remember your main goal in most tournament settings is objective points.

For example, I played a tournament rules 2000 point game against an army of mostly extremely hard hitting tanks, missiles, and ordinance. I killed what little melee he had in the first turn, and tied up the rest of his troops in melee with my vehicles (Piranhas and a skyray) I absolutely demolished him in objective points the first 4 rounds and got such a commanding lead it was impossible for him to catch up, even though he destroyed most of my army by the time the game ended.

If I had played a commander spam list I would have gotten demolished.
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#31 » Jul 22 2017 07:16

I'm liking the look of flamer crisis suits, simply because the poor accuracy of the suits doesn't matter.
Is 2x flamer + ATS better than 3x flamer?

You can either sit them behind your gunline to deter/kill assault units or take homing beacons and drop them right on a flammable unit.

Any support systems useful in this style of play? I might take a drone controller and 6 gun drones. Possibly a shield gen on one suit to protect against lascannon hits once my drones get shot up.
Anything else that might be useful?

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#32 » Jul 22 2017 07:56

Dark Hope wrote:Underscore units from what I've heard won't be allowed in official tournaments.

As for mathhammering paper vs play, I'd have to say it's not looking at the bigger picture. There are many factors on the battlefield, and pumping out damage is only one of them. Remember your main goal in most tournament settings is objective points.

For example, I played a tournament rules 2000 point game against an army of mostly extremely hard hitting tanks, missiles, and ordinance. I killed what little melee he had in the first turn, and tied up the rest of his troops in melee with my vehicles (Piranhas and a skyray) I absolutely demolished him in objective points the first 4 rounds and got such a commanding lead it was impossible for him to catch up, even though he destroyed most of my army by the time the game ended.

If I had played a commander spam list I would have gotten demolished.


Wait, you took a skyray to a tournament? I thought they were rubbish now?

Good work though. You're right, winning games is more than points per wound.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#33 » Jul 22 2017 10:55

Jburli wrote:I'm liking the look of flamer crisis suits, simply because the poor accuracy of the suits doesn't matter.
Is 2x flamer + ATS better than 3x flamer?

It's only better against Sv2+ units, same efficiency against Sv3+ units (although the potential damage of 3 flamer is higher) and worse against Sv4+ or higher.
However since I dislike the look of 3 weapons on a Suit and since I mostly play for fluff, I'll be using 2 flamer + ATS on my suits. :P

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#34 » Jul 23 2017 09:55

Panzer wrote:
Jburli wrote:I'm liking the look of flamer crisis suits, simply because the poor accuracy of the suits doesn't matter.
Is 2x flamer + ATS better than 3x flamer?

It's only better against Sv2+ units, same efficiency against Sv3+ units (although the potential damage of 3 flamer is higher) and worse against Sv4+ or higher.
However since I dislike the look of 3 weapons on a Suit and since I mostly play for fluff, I'll be using 2 flamer + ATS on my suits. :P


It's also good to remember that the ATS gives us slightly better damage in melee, and melee is pretty much an expectation when you're in flamer range.
Because of this, I'm considering XV8 bodyguards because they get an extra attack for only 3pts per model. Not sure how big a difference this would make, though.

Edit: the normal crisis shas'vre gets 3 attacks anyway, so it's only an extra 2 attacks across 3 suits for 9pts.. You also get the bodyguard special rule, which is useful on rare occasions.
Last edited by Jburli on Jul 23 2017 10:11, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#35 » Jul 23 2017 10:03

Jburli wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Jburli wrote:I'm liking the look of flamer crisis suits, simply because the poor accuracy of the suits doesn't matter.
Is 2x flamer + ATS better than 3x flamer?

It's only better against Sv2+ units, same efficiency against Sv3+ units (although the potential damage of 3 flamer is higher) and worse against Sv4+ or higher.
However since I dislike the look of 3 weapons on a Suit and since I mostly play for fluff, I'll be using 2 flamer + ATS on my suits. :P


It's also good to remember that the ATS gives us slightly better damage in melee, and melee is pretty much an expectation when you're in flamer range.
Because of this, I'm considering XV8 bodyguards because they get an extra attack for only 3pts per model. Not sure how big a difference this would make, though.

Almost no difference at all unfortunately.

3 Crisis Suits without ATS vs Marines:
7 attacks (with the 'Vre) = 2.3 hits = 1.5 wounds = 0.5 unsaved wounds

3 Crisis Suits with ATS vs Marines:
0.78 unsaved wounds

3 Bodyguards without ATS vs Marines:
9 attachs = 3 hits = 2 wounds = 0.67 unsaved wounds

3 Bodyguards with ATS vs Marines:
1 unsaved wound

So you see, Bodyguards with ATS double the amount of unsaved wounds when compared to regular Crisis without ATS. But it's still laughable few wounds. That's a lot of efford for almost no return.
Crisis aren't and won't ever be good in melee as long as they hit on 5+, no matter whether they have 2 or 3 attacks or AP0 or AP-1.

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: XV8s - From Theory to Tabletop

Post#36 » Jul 23 2017 10:30

Panzer wrote:Almost no difference at all unfortunately.

3 Crisis Suits without ATS vs Marines:
7 attacks (with the 'Vre) = 2.3 hits = 1.5 wounds = 0.5 unsaved wounds

3 Crisis Suits with ATS vs Marines:
0.78 unsaved wounds

3 Bodyguards without ATS vs Marines:
9 attachs = 3 hits = 2 wounds = 0.67 unsaved wounds

3 Bodyguards with ATS vs Marines:
1 unsaved wound

So you see, Bodyguards with ATS double the amount of unsaved wounds when compared to regular Crisis without ATS. But it's still laughable few wounds. That's a lot of efford for almost no return.
Crisis aren't and won't ever be good in melee as long as they hit on 5+, no matter whether they have 2 or 3 attacks or AP0 or AP-1.


Point taken.
I never expect any of my units to be good in close combat, but less bad can sometimes be helpful, if it makes getting charged a little less tragic. I know the real damage would be the shooting and overwatch with the flamers, which either unit would do equally well..

However, for those 9pts you can bring an extra gun drone instead. Likely a wiser investment.

Return to “Tau Tactics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests