Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Dark Hope
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Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#1 » Jul 22 2017 12:22

Last updated September 13th 2017

This is a personal comprehensive battle guide to 8th edition combat strategy. A little about myself first. I've been playing RPGs of all variety for 26 years, was in the US navy, and studied medieval battle tactics. I am a proud Gue'vesa who strongly believes in the ideals of the greater good, and will gladly help out any fellow Gue'vesa.

Post #1: Objectives

Post #2:How to Build a Winning List

Post #3: Deployment

Post #4: Mont'ka & Tau Charge Tactics

Post #5: Turn Priorities

Post #6 Codex Updates (for future update)

Post #7: Forge World Info (to be done later)

Post #8 Darks Personal Battle Codex

First off, I'd like to say if you've played any prior edition of warhammer, forget everything you know. 8th edition is an entirely new beast, especially for the Tau. Second thing is, there is a HUGE difference between mathhammer and warhammer. Many things might look good on paper, but in fact are not on the board. This is due to the nature of the objective based game, and rules and abilities that affect it. For example a quad FB commander is excellent yes, but oh look, a bunch of tyranid gaunt swarms taking all the objectives are now literally unstoppable because they claim objectives by numbers (and objective secured), and each commander can kill at most 4 per turn. They've won before the game even stats without even needing to roll any dice.

Here I'll be highlighting everything I find to be important in building AND commanding a solid competitive list. These points are made with the objective game in mind, so inherently doesn't focus on raw mathhammer killing power.

Before we even begin to talk list building, let's talk about how to win objective based games.

Objectives

Capture Objective
Often times, currently unneeded objectives are abandoned. Upon drawing a capture objective card, you simply need to get there. Units with high movement speeds or deepstrike are perfect for this. Coldstar suits or piranhas are great examples. They're cheap, sturdy, and highly mobile.

Sometimes enemies will be heavy on an objective. Remember you only need to outnumber them to capture. Also remember only models within 3" count. A Devilfish full of breachers is amazing for taking objectives. They have to be within 5" anyways to be fully effective, they're 10 to a full squad, and they have amazing kill potential. They're cheap, and the Devilfish can provide cover by blocking line of sight, or charge an enemy unit to prevent them from shooting your squishy breeches next turn.

All troop choices have a special rule called "objective secured." This means they automatically control an objective of they're near it. If your opponent also has troops on it, it goes by model count again. Again breachers are fantastic at abusing this rule. They will likely obliterate other troops and easily take the point.

Defend Objective
This one is a bit harder for Tau. Suits with drones tend to work the best here. Put the suits on the objective and deny the enemy entry by making a blockade with the drones. If they shoot the suits or drones it won't matter, and charging shouldn't result in any progress towards the objective. You're probably going to suffer some significant losses on this one, but the points are well worth it.

Kill Units
This one is easy. Just focus smaller units. If an enemy has a unit with no special weapons (all bolters for example) consider trying to leave one alive to get this easier if you draw the card. Same idea on transport vehicles if they're not being aggressive, just leave em with 1 wound. Their guns are usually awful anyways.

Kill a Unit in Melee
Ok...you almost need Farsight for this until we get our fusion blades and onegar gauntlet back. Remember, suits with ATS do apply it in melee combat. Also consider shooting a squishy unit down to one model, then charging it for the kill. If you're using Farsight, just try to kill a wounded vehicle or small unit. I recommend giving him +1 attack on the charge warlord trait if you're fielding him.

Kill a Character
This one is actually pretty easy with Tau. Your fast models, be they coldstar suits or piranhas, can easily zip right over the enemy line and shoot them in the back. MOST players keep their characters behind, not in the middle, of their army. Watch for this and you'll notice it's surprisingly true. A person's natural instinct is to put them in back so they're less likely to be in front and shot at, not thinking how we can just fly over. It's just gotta be the closest enemy model and you can shoot it.

The rest are all highly situational or straight forward.
Always remember to drop an objective at the end of your turn if you're not sure you can complete it by next turn. Also remember some game modes allow 3 command points to be spent to immediately redraw an objective card. If it's an impossible objective for you it's worth the CP.
Last edited by Dark Hope on Sep 13 2017 10:08, edited 15 times in total.
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Re: [WIP, DO NOT POST] Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#2 » Jul 22 2017 12:22

OK folks, the first step at winning the game is here. Variety, Mont'ka power, and field control are the most important factors in building a successful list.

Variety
As discussed earlier, taking only units of one type can easily cost you a game if faced with an opponent that counters your models. You need to have units that can complete as many objectives as possible throughout the game.

Mont'ka power
The best defense is a good offense. Every model killed is one less bullet flying at your face every round. If you can kill an opponents scoring potential on turn 1, you're probably going to win. Seeker missiles are amazing. While the skyray is essentially a one turn wonder and horrible in all mathhammer tables, I take one because I can nuke someone with it, likely at great hit rates, and then use it for Tau charge tactics (which I'll discuss later). Always try to take as many Seeker Missiles as you can. My 2000 point list has 19 of them. Anything else that can fire on turn 1 is great. I'll discuss Mont'ka in great detail later on.

Field Control
Field control means models that can control the shape of forces on the battlefield. Infiltrating stealth suits infesting a building with an objective in it for example. You're making it hard for your opponent to get near it, thus denying them access to an objective. Waves of drones cutting off an opponent from moving towards an objective, or simply swarming an objective to deny them defend objective points. Anything making your opponent do things they don't want to do and costing them points is a great strategy.

List Building

Troop Choices

Strike Team
Pros: cheap, long range
Cons: low volume of fire, low toughness
Notes: affected by most HQ buffs

Breacher Team
Pros: cheap, incredibly strong weapons
Cons: low survivability, need a transport to be reliable
Notes: works amazing with Darkstrider. Pair with a shield drone unit to add survivability and make your opponent freak out. Charge with the Devilfish to help keep them safe after disembarking.

Kroot
Pros: insanely cheap, better melee skills than other infantry
Cons: weaker stat lines in shooting and saves
Notes: as for riders, hounds, and shapers, I haven't tested them yet.

Summary: Breachers are the best infantry choice imo. They're amazing at taking objectives from an enemy sitting on it. Gun drones beat out strike teams in sheer volume of fire, not to mention survivability. I don't recommend taking too many infantry choices however, they tend to get their butts kicked by the average space marine.

Elites

Stealth Suits
Pros: infiltrate, camouflage field, homing beacon
Cons: I honestly can't think of any
Notes: Amazing for claiming objectives in ruins/cover before the game even begins. Homing beacons are perfect for close combat Tau to jump in and charge one inch away. Most of aren't available until the codex is released however.

Crisis Battlesuit/Bodyguard
Pros: covers a wide area, can mantra strike with a large number of drones
Cons: expensive, unimpressive BS
Notes: small units of bodyguards are great at protecting Longstrike, namely with long range weapons on them. Mantra striking in front of assets can help strengthen your front line early game. Don't hesitate to take invuln shields on them, they are often high priority targets for opponents. Flamers ignore the low BS, and work great on objectives or in the front lines to keep charging units at bay.

Ghostkeel
Pros: insanely hard to kill model, insane firepower, infiltrate
Cons: weak to melee units, you can loose both to hit penalties if you're not careful
Notes: One of the top Tau models imo. As long as you can maintain its safe distance with models in front of it, it's practically invincible. 90% of the time it seems people focus them hard early game if you put one center field. It's got amazing saves in cover and as long as you have drones it makes an excellent bullet sponge.

Riptide
Pros: it looks menacing
Cons: it's not menacing
Notes: it's mobile and tanky, but it's firepower is severely lacking. It's too expensive to use for Tau charge tactics even. It needs a point adjustment.

Summary: Ghostkeels and stealth suits are usually your best options. Having some Battlesuits is great too, just don't field too many, they are really expensive. I highly recommend taking drones with suits. Not the shrimp 2 drone unit that deploys with them, but a full unit of 12 drones. The tiny units give away first blood and kill objectives. Crisis suit units of 6+ models don't have that problem.

Fast Attack

Pathfinders
Pros: strong firepower
Cons: low defensive stats, rail rifles are expensive
Notes: Usually high priority targets for enemy fire. To maximize firepower you need to take several smaller units, which often gives away first turn and first blood. You can compensate for this by throwing them near some shield drones. The commander Mont'ka ability works great in combination with their scout ability for getting them into a good position, even rapid fire range!

Drones
Pros: cheap, good defensive stats, savior protocols
Cons: low BS
Notes: Gun drones have a massive volume of fire, shield drones have bonkers saves, and marker drones are more mobile than pathfinders. Drones are tougher than tau infantry and have the same or better saves. Gun drones also benefit from Cadre Fireblades extra shot on each gun, giving them a total of 6 shots per drone. In large games consider taking full units of shield drones to protect your expensive assets. Small units of 2-6 drones aren't recommended because they make easy targets for kill objectives.

Piranhas
Pros: Fast, tough, cheapest source for seeker missiles, can charge on turn 1
Cons: unimpressive BS
Notes: Piranhas are one of my personal favorite models right now. Cheap price for essentially 12 shots (plus 2 seeker missiles). I love them because on turn 1 you can fly up their insane movement speed, loose your missiles, and use Tau charge tactics. The FB upgrade can be nice, but not worth it if you're going to be using Tau charge tactics with them.

Devilfish
Pros: Great for getting breacher units into range, good at tau charge tactics
Cons: expensive
Notes: None

Vespids
Pros: high AP for cost
Cons: short range, low defensive stats
Notes: As far as efficiency per point is concerned, gun drones have em beat.

Summary: Your best options are drones and piranhas. Pathfinders are good but they always tend to die very quickly and need shield drones to protect them. The added cost of the drones makes them extremely expensive. Despite this fact, having a unit of ion rifles and rail rifles can perform well if properly positioned and protected.

Heavy Support

Sniper Drones
Pros: can target characters, long range
Cons: low offensive stats, high cost, low BS
Notes: they rely on Firesight Marksman and drone controllers to be actuate. Basically they've just got fancy pulse rifles.

Hammerhead
Pros: High stat lines in all areas
Cons: None
Notes: both weapon options are great. IC is better at killing multi wound units, RG is better at killing large tough units like tanks. Also able to use charge tactics.

Skyray
Pros: Extremely strong first turn
Cons: only good for charge tactics after missiles are spent
Notes: Despite the fact it's firepower is severely reduced after it fired it's missiles, it's still extremely useful for using charge tactics. It's Mont'ka power is extremely useful. You will never need more than 1. Opponents will likely never target it, especially after it uses it's missiles, leaving it free to literally fly into enemy lines and charge enemy units. Because of its size you're likely to get at least two units into melee, possibly more. If you've killed your enemies melee units properly with your Mont'ka, it should survive most of the game, effectively removing those units from the game.

Broadside
Pros: High attack and defence stats, long range
Cons: low maneuverability
Notes: not very good at capturing objectives, but great at sitting on objectives in your deployment zone.

Stormsurge
Pros: insanely powerful
Cons: insanely pricey, low maneuverability, can't use savior protocols or bodyguards to protect
Notes: Extremely good at killing things, but not good at capturing objectives. There's no way to protect them so they tend to die quickly if focused.

Summary: Hammerheads are the best models to take. I suggest no more than one skyray and one broadside. Stormsurge is only viable in a 3000+ point game minimum.

Flyers

Razorshark
Pros: good at killing groud troops
Cons: doesn't really fit any important role
Notes: None

Sunshark
Pros: amazing at wiping out large ground units and swarms
Cons: hard to pilot on small battlegrounds
Notes: None

Summary: The Sun > a Shark. Both do little in objective games.

HQs & Characters

Commander
Pros: High BS, 4 options
Cons: expensive for a single suit
Notes: Great for deepstrike kills, but weak to counter fire. Running too many severely diminishes your ability to take objectives or kill swarms of enemies. Coldstar suits are amazing at grabbing distant objectives or running behind enemy lines and killing squishy HQs.

Ethereal
Pros: nice buffs, cheap
Cons: buffs only work on infantry and suits
Notes: You're probably not taking any infantry that's staying in a safe spot, and your suits likely won't ever be clumped up close enough to get enough benefit out of him. Doesn't work on kroot or Drones. If you REALLY want a 6+ FNP on your troops though, this is the ethereal to take because it's the cheapest. The others aren't really worth the extra points unless you're taking massive amounts of strike teams. I recommend against it, as gun drones are much more effective with a cheaper HQ support.

Fireblade
Pros: High BS, Markerlight, Amazing Buff, Cheap
Cons: pulse rifle isn't an impressive HQ weapon
Notes: Adds an extra shot on pulse guns (plural), meaning drones get an extra 2 shots when within half range.

Farsight
Pros: Extra Mont'ka use, strong melee capability
Cons: No choice of equipment
Notes: I strongly suggest against putting him in manta strike unless you also send in a large unit of crisis bodyguards and drones. He works best using his ability on turn 1 to advance and get in a good position. Just remember it only ignores the advance during the shooting phase, you can't charge if you advance.

Shadowsun
Pros: Really strong offensive stats, extra Kauyon use
Cons: poor defensive stats for a suit, expensive
Notes: Really strong infiltrator if you're confident in getting first turn. Make sure you have at least one full unit of stealth suits to join her, or she'll likely die quickly.

Darkstrider
Pros: High BS, Markerlight, Amazing Buff, Cheap
Cons: pulse carbine isn't an impressive HQ weapon
Notes: goes great with Breacher Teams, or pathfinder rail rifle units.

Longstrike
Pros: Best HQ imo, High BS, Amazing Buff
Cons: can be targeted from anywhere
Notes: Grab a small unit of long range crisis bodyguards to intercept shots at Longstrike. It's a hefty investment, but one that's worth it. If you want a cheaper investment try plasma rifles or flamers.

Summary: Longstrike, Fireblade, Darkstrider, and Commanders are the best HQ options. Throw a drone controller on your commander and bubble wrap him as you fly around taking any objectives you need while crossing a river of enemy blood.
Last edited by Dark Hope on Aug 05 2017 12:56, edited 13 times in total.

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Re: [WIP, DO NOT POST] Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#3 » Jul 22 2017 12:22

Deployment

A small but important part of the game. First turn is a massive advantage, and vastly improves the effectiveness of your Mont'ka. Having fewer total units is important to gain this advantage, so never split units if possible. If you don't get first turn, spending a CP to steal first turn is worth a shot.

Deployment Order
-infiltrators if you want to place in a building closer than 9" away from enemy deployment zone
-anything starting in deep strike
-additional models (like darkstrider) going in dedicated transports
-heavy support & long range suits
-other suits
-transports
-infiltrators
-piranhas and skyray

Deployment Positioning
I'll say it once, I'll say it a thousand times. POSITIONING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE GAME. It starts in the deployment phase and evolves from there.

Putting your infiltrators too close to your enemy can be a risky move. If your confident your opponent has no melee capability, it's a less risky move. Ghostkeels in ruins are great, especially with hiding spots for the stealth drones. If your opponent has melee units, place them further back, and deep strike in crisis suits with lots of drones to guarantee that -2 to hit. In both cases opponents are likely to ignore your Ghostkeel while it obliterates models every turn.

Putting units in deep strike early simply let's you see where your opponent is placing their stuff before placing the rest of your army.

Your long range support models position isn't super important, just anywhere where they have the most LoS over the board. Naturally Longstrike and your hammerheads are going to be clustered anyways. Don't put them too far back, or you'll leave gaps where your opponent can deep strike.

Breachers and their transports are most effective on the edge of the board. That way you only have to worry about protecting them from one side.

The rest of your infiltrators can be deployed near the end so your opponent can't counter deploy as well.

Place your piranhas and skyray last, as you'll likely be using them for charge tactics and need to know where they'll be most useful.
Last edited by Dark Hope on Jul 22 2017 04:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [WIP, DO NOT POST] Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#4 » Jul 22 2017 12:23

Mont'ka

The combat art of Mont'ka is not just a fluff thing. It's a very real, very effective way to win games. To maximize the effectiveness of your Mont'ka you need to focus on three factors, strength, reliability, and volume of fire.

Most people are going to want to kill your biggest baddest models first, as they can do the most damage to their army. You want them to do this. Give them a chance to do this while maximizing your potential to survive.

You do not want to do this. Your first priority should be any melee units your opponent has, as they're going to be the biggest problem in contesting objectives. If you can obliterate all melee units in turn 1, you're much MUCH more likely to win.

Seeker missiles are a very important part of your Mont'ka. You should be targeting things with invuln shields, preferably melee units. Highly mobile units are a secondary target. Basically anything they can use to score objective points.

Tau Charge Tactics

The second important aspect of dominating the board in objective games is properly controlling the board. Tau charge tactics take advantage of the fly rule. Most Tau models have fly. Basically after your Mont'ka, you charge with your deepstrike units and piranhas at the hardest hitting non-flying heavy supports or scoring units your opponent has. This forces them into taking overwatch shots (or no shots at all if you can use flash grenades) instead of their normal BS on their turn. It also slows their advance. If they fall back they can't shoot, charge, or advance, and you can then shoot and charge again next turn. If you need to, you can fall back and shoot because of the fly rule, then charge with a different unit.

As long as you properly Mont'ka your opponents melee units, your models in melee combat should be incredibly safe.

Piranhas and skyrays are your best friend with this strategy because of their high amount of wounds and speed. They strike hard, fast, and tie up enemy units. Their models are big enough to tie up multiple units even.
Last edited by Dark Hope on Aug 09 2017 09:50, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: [WIP, DO NOT POST] Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#5 » Jul 22 2017 12:23

Turn Priorities

Each turn you're going to want to focus on several things during each phase. Each phase has a list of what you should be prioritising and how, listed in order from most to least important.

Movement Phase
I said it before and I'll say it again. POSITIONING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE GAME! Got it drilled into your head yet? Good.

-Get to objectives, or stop your opponent from scoring objectives. This is a highly situational decision. If you have to commit significant resources to only delay an opponent from scoring an objective for one turn, and it's not potentially the final round, don't do it unless you're desperate.

-Secure unguarded objectives, make defensive lines, and protect assets.

-Get into position for Tau charge tactics.

-Get your models are in optimal position for the purposes of cover and buffs. Make sure your Ghostkeels have a proper defense line if needed.

-Don't leave gaps on your side of the board if your opponent has deepstrike reserves left, or leave a spot in an unimportant corner open on purpose to bait it.

Shooting Phase

This should be fairly simple. Remember to keep the objective based game in mind. Kills do not earn you points (unless that happens to be one of your objectives).

-Focus models on or near objectives
-Kill melee units
-Destroy swarms
-Blow up heavy support

Assault Phase

Charge the most threatening models. Remember they can fall back and still claim an objective, so only charge models that You can make sure won't be able to be used effectively on their turn. Follow the Tau charge tactics I laid out earlier and you'll do golden.

Opponents Turn

I really don't suggest using any command points on rerolls unless it's for something super important with a high degree of success. Usually to keep tanks from exploding or bodyguard saves on Longstrike.
Last edited by Dark Hope on Jul 22 2017 06:44, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: [WIP, DO NOT POST] Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#6 » Jul 22 2017 04:03

Reserved for codex updates
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Re: [WIP, DO NOT POST] Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#7 » Jul 22 2017 02:43

Reserved for Forge World Model info
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#8 » Jul 22 2017 06:54

Darks personal battle codex

These are general rules I follow with almost all of my lists. I find them to work extremely well in all of my games.

Drone Squadron
Always put at least two full units of drones in your list. Each unit should consist of 8 or 10 gun drones, 2 shield drones, and optionally 2 marker drones. These should be supported by an ethereal on a hover drone to increase their LD, a commander with a drone controller, and a Cadre Fireblade. Give your commander or ethereal inspiring leader to increase their LD even more. They can't be affected by the other ethereal abilities unfortunately, but your suits can. The other warlord traits are going to do very little for you anyways. Keep your HQs in between your drone units.

Use the commanders Mont'ka ability to take center field on turn 1. Open fire with your massive amounts of pulse carbine fire on models with bad saves and toughness, or models with invuln saves. The invuln saves do absolutely nothing against large volumes of weaker fire, and do better than high power shots IMO. Avoid shooting anything with higher than 5 toughness if possible. Beg your opponent to charge you XD

Longstrikes Tank Squadron

This is a formation I use in 2k+ games. Longstrike with a RG, hammerhead with a RG, hammerhead with an IC, a skyray, and a small unit of crisis bodyguards. These bodyguards should be in range of the drones and ethereal (to benefit from sense of stone). I highly suggest long range weapons like missile pods on them. If you don't want to spend too many points on missile pods, add a stimulant injector to give a second 6+ save against those mortal wounds you'll be taking for Longstrike.

Take full seeker missiles, you'll be hitting on 2+rr1s with the hammerheads and Longstrike, so it's totally worth it.

If done right your opponent should only be able to hurt either your drones, or your hammerheads. You might be tempted to focus your seekers on your opponents heavy support, but instead you should be focusing on their melee troops, preferably ones with high saves or invuln shields. In an objective based game this will severely cripple their scoring potential, and let you abuse Tau charge tactics to it's full extent. In a kill point game though just nuke their scariest model, lol.

Your skyray should be charging up the field to keep their heavy support in melee. After it shoots it's seekers it's an almost worthless model, so your opponent will have a tough decision shooting it, or letting it keep his units out of the shooting phase. It's a win-win scenario for you.

More later after testing.
Last edited by Dark Hope on Sep 13 2017 10:05, edited 4 times in total.
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#9 » Jul 22 2017 06:55

This topic is now open for discussion, comments, and the inevitable disagreements!
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#10 » Jul 22 2017 07:18

You did an awful lot of work here, but I think your unit analysis is off.
Also there seem to be some misread rules.
Would not call it 'competitive' for now.
Will read again and further elaborate when I have access to a physical keyboard ;)

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#11 » Jul 22 2017 09:14

A small note. You have the Skyray under fast attack and not heavy support. Not sure if that was intended or not.

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#12 » Jul 22 2017 10:31

I'll be interested in seeing your thoughts on use of Markerlights in a Mont'ka strategy. I basically play my games in a style similar to yours but go light on Markerlights. I prefer to just go to one light for the rerolls.

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#13 » Jul 23 2017 01:31

I like the effort in this post, but you can't make this sort of giant guide and say things like "Pathfinders are garbage" and "Skyrays are amazing" without giving extensive experiential evidence, statistical analysis, or some other tactical assessment.

I appreciate your undertaking this massive effort, but you need to decide whether to (a) tactically analyze every unit in the Index in a possibly-controversial way, or (b) discuss the tactics you think are competitive in 8th Edition. If you try and do both though, I think this is going to be a very difficult tactica to write, as you'll probably get a lot of feedback from those who don't agree with you. Just thinking!

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#14 » Jul 23 2017 04:10

Now that you have finished up to this point I am glad that you asked us not to respond earlier; it has given me time to appreciate what this guide is - and is not - and therefore how to value it. I do appreciate the effort you have put into explaining your playstyle and how the current Tau index works in that approach to the game. Some of what you say is pretty universal, other parts are quite idiosyncratic to your personal approach and would not be true for me.

I do think that articles like this have real value and are totally in the spirit of ATT. A tactics article does not have to be in the style of an academy article to have value, if we had a series of such articles that would have value and it would be perfectly OK for them to disagree with each other in places.

If there is one thing that I think would really help readers understand this it would be for you to explain how you modify your approach for different scenarios, for example do you have the same pace of movement onto objectives if the scenario only scores them on the last turn?

I think you will cause a little less dissonance in the readers mind if you switch your wording from a "x is useless" to "x does not work in this play style" approach. If a player knows that x works well for them it is just a bit harder for them to trust your judgement when you make a sweeping statement that contradicts their experience.

But generally an interesting and worthwhile read and a positive contribution to ATT. Thanks.

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Dark Hope
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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#15 » Jul 23 2017 12:26

All solid feedback. This guide is ever changing to reflect what the community wants to see, and I started with a skeleton guide to see what needed to be done first. I'll be adding the in game reasoning behind why certain units aren't as good first, and making edits as needed to other areas.
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#16 » Jul 23 2017 06:34

A very good start, but I want echo the comments against some of the sweeping statements against some units, and I think some counter arguments/viewpoints with reasonings for both views could round out the guide. For example I personally take issue with the sweeping dismissal of Strike teams which I believe have the following benefits over gun drones:
- +1 leadership and bonding knife
- does damage at 30" compared to 18"
- benefits from the cadre fireblade at 15" compared with 9"
- allows the building of battalion detachments

The charging tactics was an interesting read, and added to my view of some of our vehicles.

I also liked the discussion of using mont'ka aggressively. Could an Ethereal not be useful to give rerolls to the advance D6 role, allowing gun drones to get within 18" on turn 1 (and/or fire warriors within 15"), as well as provide better leadership ?

I look forward to your updates.

Rathstar

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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#17 » Jul 23 2017 07:09

Rathstar wrote:A very good start, but I want echo the comments against some of the sweeping statements against some units, and I think some counter arguments/viewpoints with reasonings for both views could round out the guide. For example I personally take issue with the sweeping dismissal of Strike teams which I believe have the following benefits over gun drones:
- +1 leadership and bonding knife
- does damage at 30" compared to 18"
- benefits from the cadre fireblade at 15" compared with 9"
- allows the building of battalion detachments


I have taken these things into consideration. The volume of fire is just too severely diminished imo. Also running too many of them just for the CP runs up your unit total, making first turn harder to get. In the end it's a preference thing, but I've noticed the drones doing significantly better in games.

Rathstar wrote:I also liked the discussion of using mont'ka aggressively. Could an Ethereal not be useful to give rerolls to the advance D6 role, allowing gun drones to get within 18" on turn 1 (and/or fire warriors within 15"), as well as provide better leadership?


Yes and no. It's 45 points for him, which is 8 more gun drones. The drones already have an 8" move and should be able to get within firing range anyways. Ethereal abilities only work on infantry and battlesuits, so markerlights are a better source of rerolls for them. A Fireblade however works on guns, written plural, instead of using the word model, meaning gun drones get two extra shots from him.
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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lantzkev
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Re: Dark Hopes 8th edition guide to competitive battle strategy

Post#18 » Jul 23 2017 08:58

If you are talking competitive itc just gives a +1 for dropping first, likewise many tournaments follow suit even when not itc.

Ethereals are gold for fnp (which stacks with stims)

As much as you like breachers in a transport, keep in mind what you could run instead.

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