Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Dsurion
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#19 » Aug 05 2017 04:00

Arka0415 wrote:The reason I wouldn't use a hard-and-fast rule is that Drones perform different functions on different Battlesuits. For example, a Commander with Missile Pods shouldn't take any drones. A regular XV8 squad should take 6 Drones because that's viable for Manta Strike, and a Fusion Commander should take Shield Drones to make use of the Character rule.
I generally don't take Shield Drones on anything other than Stealth Suits or Commanders, and have had very successful games when I deploy maximum Gun Drones with my Manta Striking Crisis Suits. The amount of firepower you can put downwind is just too good to pass up. Sure, they're not as resilient as Shield Drones when you use them as ablative wounds, but when you absolutely need a unit deleted this turn they're very good at doing just that.

I tend to max out on Crisis Suits when I deploy them, so having 12 drones mean 48 shots. I take on the mentality of a Guard player: One of them will hit and wound eventually! I usually take 2x Plasma or CiB and either a Flamer or Missile Pod depending on what I'm expecting to have trouble with. It's worked very well for me against Ultramarines. 6d6 S4 attacks is no joke, even if they don't crack armor as well as the plasma.

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Arka0415
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#20 » Aug 05 2017 04:20

Dsurion wrote:I generally don't take Shield Drones on anything other than Stealth Suits or Commanders, and have had very successful games when I deploy maximum Gun Drones with my Manta Striking Crisis Suits. The amount of firepower you can put downwind is just too good to pass up. Sure, they're not as resilient as Shield Drones when you use them as ablative wounds, but when you absolutely need a unit deleted this turn they're very good at doing just that.

I tend to max out on Crisis Suits when I deploy them, so having 12 drones mean 48 shots. I take on the mentality of a Guard player: One of them will hit and wound eventually! I usually take 2x Plasma or CiB and either a Flamer or Missile Pod depending on what I'm expecting to have trouble with. It's worked very well for me against Ultramarines. 6d6 S4 attacks is no joke, even if they don't crack armor as well as the plasma.


Sounds like we agree then! I generally build lists that go 2nd (12+ drops) as most 8th Edition Tau lists tend to be, so I avoid pairs of Drones as they give up First Blood too easily. However, I'm more than happy to put them on my Manta Strike suits- once those suits arrive, if First Blood hasn't already been taken, I'm guaranteed to claim it myself once my suits open up.

About Stealthsuits though, I'm torn as to whether or not to include Drones. Two Drones just isn't very many, and even Shield Drones aren't hard to kill when there's just two of them. How has your experience been?

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Dsurion
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#21 » Aug 05 2017 04:31

Arka0415 wrote:About Stealthsuits though, I'm torn as to whether or not to include Drones. Two Drones just isn't very many, and even Shield Drones aren't hard to kill when there's just two of them. How has your experience been?

The opponent will waste a lot of shots shooting down the Shield Drones because they know shooting at the Stealth Suits will be less effective. It means less shots being spent on your Stealth Suits :D

But yes, the Shield Drones will definitely get killed off early on. That's fine. I just need them to give the Stealth Suits 1-2 turns to get into position. Since, for me, the important part of running Stealth Suits is the Homing Beacon, I tend to care about them significantly less after that. On the bright side, so does the opponent when he's staring down a blob of drones and crisis suits, so the Stealth Suits are free to go about hopping onto objectives or picking up the relic, or even just harassing the enemy.

If you have any surviving drones after all of that, I find it's a good idea to have them beeline for the stealth suits sitting on objectives or holding a relic. I play a lot of Guard and they absolutely detest this strategy. It works.

As an additional thought for OP: Don't underestimate Rail Rifles on your Pathfinders. Sure, they're squishy and will likely be targeted ASAP, but if you can keep them somewhere safe (in cover, in a Devilfish) and use their pre-game free move, they can really lay down the hurt.

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deathboon
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#22 » Aug 05 2017 08:23

I never use shield drones. If I were to have a missile pod commander that stayed back then he'd sit in the middle of a squad of marker drones. But staying back is not my style, nor imho is it the best style for tau in the current meta. I build for first turn manta strike. My suits are always on the front lines where they belong. When you use a homing beacon to drop 6 suits with 2*flamer+fusion each and 12 drones with a second squad of 12 drones coming up the field to support, that's a world of hurt for marines. Backed by a pair of quad fusion commanders, your manta strike will delete a large chunk of the enemy before you charge in to assault.

Riflewolf
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#23 » Aug 25 2017 03:05

CDR_Farsight wrote:They sold the Raven Guard chapter tactic as a means to get them into close combat without taking as much damage, but they missed the mark BIG TIME. Raven Guard are only marginally better at CC than standard marines, BUT they can take all of the shooty stuff that standard marines can take as well. Just like with our Ghostkeel...why the heck would you ever close to within 12" if you lose your benefit? The -1 to hit makes them a ridiculously strong gunline army.


Huh that would be pretty good reversed though. getting -1 to hit while within 12" of shooting unit. it would encourage some really bold deepstrikes as well

Folix
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#24 » Sep 09 2017 11:36

I know it's not cheap, but I have two y'varha s. They wiped out 30 primarius marines, a librarian and that new fancy captain in terminus armour .

You must take those new shield drones with them that have the 3 up invul. They are tough as nails and scary as hell. After you fry a squad or two the other player ignores everything else on the table and just shoots the entire army at them.

Meshuggah
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#25 » Sep 14 2017 11:31

Fusion Blasters and the -1 to hit for the Ghostkeels and Stealth suits saved me VS Primaris. I didn't roll great the whole match, but I damn sure hit when it counted. He had a hard time putting wounds into my GK. I put some serious dents in his units and took out 2 sets of Primaris (he had one unit called Hell-something, so I sent them there. :biggrin: )

Also, if you have a Riptide and/or Stormsurge, make sure you take Early warning override if they are taking anything that can come in from deep strike. I killed 2 Death Company and it really helped secure a location. If you seen a sanguinary priest, kill it immediately. I hate those jerks. DO IT FOR THE GREATER GOOD AND MESHUGGAH!

zawyvern
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#26 » Sep 22 2017 01:20

One thing I noticed that wasn't mentioned if using FB commanders if you use a unit of stealth suits as well, it looks like you can use their homing beacon to get under the 9" needed for FB when deep striking. I could be missing something from a FAQ or something but that's what it seems.
Otherwise, yes 12"-18" is where you want to be. Plasma rifle spam seems to be nerfed since can't overcharge. Although you have to watch out for plasmagun spam. If playing against primaris, dual CIB with ATS is a good way to go on crisis suits.
Also, not a popular option, but if you can scrape together enough points for a couple of kroot units they can tie up some of the more dangerous units to the Tau. If you have the models that is.

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thesnailmaster
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#27 » Sep 22 2017 07:04

Folix wrote: You must take those new shield drones with them that have the 3 up invul. They are tough as nails and scary as hell. After you fry a squad or two the other player ignores everything else on the table and just shoots the entire army at them.


Shadowsun is the only unit who can purchase those 3++ shield drones though, so at max you can have 2, the ones that come with the Y'vara have a 4++ as standard (and the now 5+ FnP thanks to the FAQ)

raven1840
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#28 » Oct 02 2017 05:32

You're also forgetting SMS and the combo of dark strider with a railrifle unit recon and shield drones. SMS again't any units that are in cover especially from hammerheads and devilfish.

Wedrujacy
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#29 » Oct 02 2017 12:25

raven1840 wrote:You're also forgetting SMS and the combo of dark strider with a railrifle unit recon and shield drones. SMS again't any units that are in cover especially from hammerheads and devilfish.


what combo you have there which could help against SM?

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Dsurion
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#30 » Oct 02 2017 02:11

Wedrujacy wrote:
raven1840 wrote:You're also forgetting SMS and the combo of dark strider with a railrifle unit recon and shield drones. SMS again't any units that are in cover especially from hammerheads and devilfish.


what combo you have there which could help against SM?
Darkstrider shooting the same unit as a unit of Pathfinders with Rail Rifles w/ Recon Drone ignores Cover and wounds on 2s, negates their armor. SMS ignoring cover doesn't seem big, as it's just the usual S5 firepower, but Marines going from Terminator saves to their normal saves is a big difference.
Last edited by Dsurion on Oct 21 2017 08:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Garacaius
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#31 » Oct 21 2017 12:21

zawyvern wrote:Also, not a popular option, but if you can scrape together enough points for a couple of kroot units they can tie up some of the more dangerous units to the Tau. If you have the models that is.


I have an old box of 16 Kroot and a Shaper: 17 wounds enough for some ablative wounds you think?

“Just one game,” they said and started to play. That was yesterday...

Aelfwyrd
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#32 » Dec 07 2017 12:22

Now that we have a marker light strategem I think strikers are the way to go. I'm running two groups each have two 12 man strikers a 10 man pathfinder squad with pulse accelerator drones and a cadre fire blade. That's 48 s5 shots at 35in and 144 s5 shots at 18in hopefully ignoring cover bs 3. I use two 3 man stealth suit squads 1FB with a shield generator and the other two get ATS. Then shadowsun and ghost keel with Fusion blasters target lock and a shield generator and a piranha. This list generates 8 cp. The marker light strategem makes my cadre fireblades that much more nasty. They shoot their marker lights first to get an easy reroll 1s. Now I'm almost guaranteed to get 5 marker lights on at least two squads or vehicles. The biggest weakness I see is alpha strike but with drones I can usually make a decent bubblewrap to prevent a charge first turn. Mass the drones near the Pathfinders park the battle groups over a objectives and with a homing beacon I can put some serious firepower in your face. You have two options move up and shoot the fire warriors and I'll always be in rapid fire range before my opponent while the suits split fire into vehicles and infantry or attempt to take out my suits, which I always keep within rapid fire range of my fire warriors. Crisis suits seem to be horrible unless using the flamer loadout. If 8th has taught me anything it's volume of focused fire pumps out a lot of wounds. 144 shots at 18in even if it's only hitting on a 4 up is 72 wounds. Against space marines you need a 3+ to wound. That should be the end of two squads of space marines a turn. Then toss is everything else and its lots of death.

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Arka0415
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#33 » Dec 07 2017 12:41

Aelfwyrd wrote:Now that we have a marker light strategem I think strikers are the way to go. I'm running two groups each have two 12 man strikers a 10 man pathfinder squad with pulse accelerator drones and a cadre fire blade. That's 48 s5 shots at 35in and 144 s5 shots at 18in hopefully ignoring cover bs 3.

Why such large squads? Unless you're running an Ethereal with the +1LD warlord trait or Aun'va, those squads are going to lose models to morale very easily. Splitting them in half will only make them better!

Aelfwyrd wrote:If 8th has taught me anything it's volume of focused fire pumps out a lot of wounds. 144 shots at 18in even if it's only hitting on a 4 up is 72 wounds. Against space marines you need a 3+ to wound. That should be the end of two squads of space marines a turn. Then toss is everything else and its lots of death.

It's always been the case that shot volume is the way to go. However, I'll just point out that 144 shots is 72 hits, which is only 36 wounds and 12 dead Space Marines, or about one squad. 12 kills isn't bad, but it did take a whole third of your army to do that.

Two squads of XV8s with Flamers and Gun Drones could kill 14 Space Marines and cost 134 points less.

Or better yet, eight squads of 6 Gun Drones get 13 kills at the same range (and with greater speed and durability),
without the Fireblade buff, and cost 260 points less!

Aelfwyrd
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Re: Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#34 » Dec 07 2017 11:35

Your not wrong about leadership but that's only come into play once so far. Void bomb....gun drones simply don't have the range imo and cp is going to be a game changer for us when the codex does finally drop. So far most of the tournaments I've played in as well as most of the pick up games have been power level based. The biggest threats I've seen have been plauge Marines with typheus and thousand sons. I push volume of shots because of ig footguard blob squads. My very first tournament I saw a guy field two 50 man conscript squads in a 50 power level game. I ran deathwatch and was shot off the table. I simply didn't have the dakka. My fire warriors more than make up for their points. They have stalled more than a few advances once people see the volume of fire.coming at them. It makes attacking my infiltration units seem like the best choice. So far people view my stealthsuits as the biggest threats on the table. While they are quite nasty themselves the fire warriors always kill more units than anything else. I'd much rather have cib missle pods and plasma rifles for heavy infantry units than flamers. I am debating on running body guards with flamers to accompany shadowsun and the commander to soak up wounds. I'm holding off to see what the codex brings, if there isn't a price adjustment or a bs adjustment then I'm not convinced they are worth it. Close quarters fighting has proven time and time again to be detrimental to my Tau. Maybe if I ran some forge world close combat models with farsight I might sing a different song but as is I want them to come to my kill squads while kiteing with suits.

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