Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Spyder335
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Struggling with Space Marines (8th)

Post#1 » Aug 01 2017 10:54

Hey guys had a recent game against space marines, they were running all primaris, and I noticed that the new marines can now outshoot Tau very easily.

Their basic guns have the same range they hit on 3+ and they have a -1 ap. So having a gun fight with them is a losing battle they get into cover and now have a 2+ armour. Their captains give them reroll 1 on wound and hit and the base troop has 2 wounds.

The new redemptor dread with better stats then the riptide is almost half the cost

Anyone have some good tips for over coming these guys?

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Panzer
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#2 » Aug 01 2017 11:20

I honestly think you should be happy to face against an all Primaris army instead of regular Space Marines. They are good but regular Marines are more cost efficient imo. :D

Anyway, overcharged CIBs and Missile Pods are key here. You really need multi-damage weapons against Primaris unless you build a real gunline and just spam S5 shooting with Gun Drones and Firewarriors supported by Fireblades and Markerlights.

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Colt
Shas'La
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#3 » Aug 01 2017 11:52

Lately i have been dealing with both Ravenguard and Blood Angels and what i have to say about delivering pain to both space marines and primaris.

1° Focus fire in a smart way: Always start your shooting with one C.FireBlade and its markerlight to then shoot from 5 to 7 pathfinders or DC Marker Drones to one same and dagerous unit. That will take out both cover and the +3 BS superiority as well as rerolling your 1's on hits. On 1500 pts or more im always running 2 teams of 8+ Pathfinders + a C.Fireblade or Darkstrider.

2° The "All terrain CIB": Take teams of 3+ XV8s with 2 x CIBS and an ATS with markerlight support you will be delivering from 18 shots that should deliver very consistent results. Even the overcharge option could wipe out a team of primaris in cover given they will be saving on 5+ wounds of 3 damage.

3° Drones Drones Drones: Help your guys with a set of drones close to them gun drones on your crisis can deliver up to 26 shots to that annoying unit of marines and the update to shield drones is just wonderfull. A couple of them with your fire warriors or pathfinders is always useful. Just be careful to take them in small numbers on missions that give victory points on destroyed units.

4° Commander Ky'iot: There is a reason the 4 X FB commander got the nickname "Kill you in one Turn" at my local shop. With the 2+ BS and a smart placed single marker light on a unit with no inv saves its almost certain they will not live a face of with the 4 X FB Commander. Keep him in deep strike place him on the 9 inch limit and enjoy even if you are more than 15 inches away you would do enough damage for it to go down one or even 2 profiles. You could even attempt a 9 in manta strike to deliver more damage and let a well placed shot from Longstrike or a Broadside team.

Many of this can be applied to almost any match against marines. The Ravenguard -1 to hit on 12"+ is a pain in the ass but for me the name of the game in this 8th edition had turned into focusing fire on high priority targets. don't spread your shooting take markerlights on one shoot to kill or cripple and then move to the next, in your two first turns you would be taking out two or three of the enemy units, the most annoying ones, removing big points from them and giving you the upper hand. It has worked for me so far. Hope it helps
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Panzer
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#4 » Aug 02 2017 01:14

Colt wrote:Keep him in deep strike place him on the 9 inch limit

Don't do that. You have to place your Commander MORE than 9" away, so you won't ever be in half range for the Fusion Blaster unless you used a Homing Beacon. Just stay about 18" away from the target you want to shoot at since it makes no difference shooting-wise whether you are 9.1" or 18" away but it does make a difference for your Commanders survivability.



Also yeah your advices are good but are all generic ones that should be applied against any army and not against specifically against Space Marines. That's just how T'au are played in 8th. :D

Spyder335
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#5 » Aug 04 2017 07:14

So update, just had a game against raven guard. Their army wide ability is a -1 to hit if you are 12in or further away, seems way to powerful. Had a solid gun line that couldn't hit a damn thing.

Im really struggling to define the Tau play style in 8th. Outgunned and out ranged all game i could barely make a dent in them.

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Panzer
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#6 » Aug 04 2017 07:21

The T'au playstyle is actually not that hard to grasp. I think real gunlines are dead. We excel at ~18" with Gun Drones and Cyclic Ion Blaster.
Crisis Suits can easily go real close to the enemy since they are pretty durable even without Drones (with Drones is always better of course) and are a great platform for Flamer as well.
Also don't forget to charge annoying shooty units with Suits yourself to tie them up.

T'au in 8th can't really sit back and shoot away anymore and neither can they concentrate on big suits either. It's also pretty hard to drop some suits and just burst a unit to hell most of the time. They also can't avoide getting charged. You must be rather close and you often charge the enemy yourself.

Antao
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#7 » Aug 04 2017 07:33

Spyder335 wrote:So update, just had a game against raven guard. Their army wide ability is a -1 to hit if you are 12in or further away, seems way to powerful. Had a solid gun line that couldn't hit a damn thing.

Im really struggling to define the Tau play style in 8th. Outgunned and out ranged all game i could barely make a dent in them.


I've found in the few games I've played of 8th so far that like Panzer the gunline idea isn't cutting it. I usually have a stealth suit, Crisis Suit, Commander deployment/drop as my major offensive piece, usually with 2xFlamer & Fusion on the Crisis and some combination of CIB/FB on the commander 2/2 has been my favorite so far (that way he feels less useless against conscript blobs). This cuts a bloodly swathe through my enemy and gives them some heavy priority targets. They are backed up by lots of strikers with a fireblade (and sometimes a pulse drone) that try to get into that 15-18 inch range to lay down 3x pules shots. I've taken longstrike + hammer heads but I've been wholly unimpressed by him as well. Sometimes he lands a D6+D3 Mortal wounds shot and other times I'm counting on him to bring something down and get hot air from him. I'll probably drop him for more commanders/suits.

Basically my objective in each game is to stay within a 9" to 18" band from my opponent where my shooting really hurts. If he's playing a shooting army, that generally mean's I'm advancing across the board ASAP, if he's playing a combat army, that generally means I'm trying to pocket him/fall back to stay in that range as he advances towards me.

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Maxwell
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#8 » Aug 04 2017 08:17

Spyder335 wrote:So update, just had a game against raven guard. Their army wide ability is a -1 to hit if you are 12in or further away, seems way to powerful. Had a solid gun line that couldn't hit a damn thing.

Im really struggling to define the Tau play style in 8th. Outgunned and out ranged all game i could barely make a dent in them.


I saw this chapter tactic and thought...." their entire army is a ghostkeel?"

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#9 » Aug 04 2017 09:36

They sold the Raven Guard chapter tactic as a means to get them into close combat without taking as much damage, but they missed the mark BIG TIME. Raven Guard are only marginally better at CC than standard marines, BUT they can take all of the shooty stuff that standard marines can take as well. Just like with our Ghostkeel...why the heck would you ever close to within 12" if you lose your benefit? The -1 to hit makes them a ridiculously strong gunline army. I played Raptors as my secondary army in 7th and since the FW Chapter Tactics aren't out, I've been running them as Raven Guard (they are a successor chapter after all). I've found that a healthy mix of Tactical Squads, Scouts (especially scouts), Primaris variants, devastators, and a few vehicles/dreads utilizing cover can out shoot any army in the game right now given the ridiculous boost to durability.

Equally ridiculous, giving Ultramarines pseudo fly makes them better at close range....way to go GW. Way to fail at fluff AND math in a single go.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Panzer
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#10 » Aug 04 2017 10:11

The Raven Guard Chapter Tactic is fine imo.
Keep in mind that we're still playing with our Index. To expect being on the exact same power level as Space Marines with their new Codex is delusional. ^^

Antao
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Posts: 46

Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#11 » Aug 04 2017 10:29

Panzer wrote:The Raven Guard Chapter Tactic is fine imo.
Keep in mind that we're still playing with our Index. To expect being on the exact same power level as Space Marines with their new Codex is delusional. ^^


Going to have to disagree here, I just played a Tau vs IG game in the Cloak and Shadows mission? Everything has a -1 penalty to hit outside of 18" range. It lasted 6 turns and was fought to a brutal draw. The only things that did any meaningful damage on either side were my crisis + commander with FB (that hovered around 14 inch range) and his hellhounds which rolled up with flamers. The hit penalty hugely gimped both our armies, had only one of us been afflicted with that penalty it would have been a crushing defeat for them, it wouldn't have even been fun to play because it would have been non-competitive.

Maybe if you're playing a genestealer cult army it won't hurt as much, but it totally changed the tone of our battle, and either one of us would have tossed in the towel on turn 3 had it been a single side with the penalty.

As for the Index vs Codex thing, yes, all index armies are going to be disadvantaged vs codex armies until their codex comes out.

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Panzer
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#12 » Aug 04 2017 12:25

Antao wrote:
Panzer wrote:The Raven Guard Chapter Tactic is fine imo.
Keep in mind that we're still playing with our Index. To expect being on the exact same power level as Space Marines with their new Codex is delusional. ^^


Going to have to disagree here, I just played a Tau vs IG game in the Cloak and Shadows mission? Everything has a -1 penalty to hit outside of 18" range. It lasted 6 turns and was fought to a brutal draw. The only things that did any meaningful damage on either side were my crisis + commander with FB (that hovered around 14 inch range) and his hellhounds which rolled up with flamers. The hit penalty hugely gimped both our armies, had only one of us been afflicted with that penalty it would have been a crushing defeat for them, it wouldn't have even been fun to play because it would have been non-competitive.

Maybe if you're playing a genestealer cult army it won't hurt as much, but it totally changed the tone of our battle, and either one of us would have tossed in the towel on turn 3 had it been a single side with the penalty.

As for the Index vs Codex thing, yes, all index armies are going to be disadvantaged vs codex armies until their codex comes out.

I mentioned it in another thread but I'll repeat it here. Imo T'au in 8th should operate within 18" of the enemy instead of trying to rely on long range shooting with some few exceptions like Longstrike etc.
And against Ravenguard it goes down to 12"...could be worse. For Flamer which are arguably one of our most potent weapons you'd have to be within that range anyway and against Marines Plasma isn't too bad which has a Rapid Fire range of 12" as well.
Unless you play with almost only Firewarrior/Pathfinder you shouldn't be too afraid to get close to the enemy (that doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful though!).

Also Astra Militarum are pretty much the top army currently so having a match resulting in a draw is not too bad actually.

Spyder335
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Posts: 3

Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#13 » Aug 04 2017 04:21

Panzer wrote:
Antao wrote:
Panzer wrote:The Raven Guard Chapter Tactic is fine imo.
Keep in mind that we're still playing with our Index. To expect being on the exact same power level as Space Marines with their new Codex is delusional. ^^


Going to have to disagree here, I just played a Tau vs IG game in the Cloak and Shadows mission? Everything has a -1 penalty to hit outside of 18" range. It lasted 6 turns and was fought to a brutal draw. The only things that did any meaningful damage on either side were my crisis + commander with FB (that hovered around 14 inch range) and his hellhounds which rolled up with flamers. The hit penalty hugely gimped both our armies, had only one of us been afflicted with that penalty it would have been a crushing defeat for them, it wouldn't have even been fun to play because it would have been non-competitive.

Maybe if you're playing a genestealer cult army it won't hurt as much, but it totally changed the tone of our battle, and either one of us would have tossed in the towel on turn 3 had it been a single side with the penalty.

As for the Index vs Codex thing, yes, all index armies are going to be disadvantaged vs codex armies until their codex comes out.

I mentioned it in another thread but I'll repeat it here. Imo T'au in 8th should operate within 18" of the enemy instead of trying to rely on long range shooting with some few exceptions like Longstrike etc.
And against Ravenguard it goes down to 12"...could be worse. For Flamer which are arguably one of our most potent weapons you'd have to be within that range anyway and against Marines Plasma isn't too bad which has a Rapid Fire range of 12" as well.
Unless you play with almost only Firewarrior/Pathfinder you shouldn't be too afraid to get close to the enemy (that doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful though!).

Also Astra Militarum are pretty much the top army currently so having a match resulting in a draw is not too bad actually.



That could work against most armies. The way it went down for me was he used aggressors (6+D6 st 4 shots) and inceptors to take out my drones then hellguns and redemtor dreads to kill my commanders, lost 4 commanders in 1 turn of shooting and 3 crisis suits.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#14 » Aug 04 2017 08:50

Panzer wrote:I mentioned it in another thread but I'll repeat it here. Imo T'au in 8th should operate within 18" of the enemy instead of trying to rely on long range shooting with some few exceptions like Longstrike etc.
And against Ravenguard it goes down to 12"...could be worse. For Flamer which are arguably one of our most potent weapons you'd have to be within that range anyway and against Marines Plasma isn't too bad which has a Rapid Fire range of 12" as well.


I agree here. Our best guns have 18" range or less, and ignoring buffs (like longstrike) we have no long-range weapons that come close to the effectiveness of the CIB, Flamer, or the Y'vahra's Phased Plasma Flamer. At least until the Codex comes out, we're skirmish Tau for the time being.

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deathboon
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#15 » Aug 04 2017 10:41

That could work against most armies. The way it went down for me was he used aggressors (6+D6 st 4 shots) and inceptors to take out my drones then hellguns and redemtor dreads to kill my commanders, lost 4 commanders in 1 turn of shooting and 3 crisis suits.

Make sure your suits and commanders are:
1. Manta striking always
2. Wisely prioritizing their targets
3. Assaulting survivors to avoid return fire
4. Accompanied by drones at least 4:1

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#16 » Aug 04 2017 11:49

deathboon wrote:
That could work against most armies. The way it went down for me was he used aggressors (6+D6 st 4 shots) and inceptors to take out my drones then hellguns and redemtor dreads to kill my commanders, lost 4 commanders in 1 turn of shooting and 3 crisis suits.

Make sure your suits and commanders are:
1. Manta striking always
2. Wisely prioritizing their targets
3. Assaulting survivors to avoid return fire
4. Accompanied by drones at least 4:1


About #1, definitely use Manta Strike if you're trying to attack your opponent. However, if you're interested in using Kauyon or Mont'ka, then Manta Strike prevents you from doing so. Just something to remember. About #4, how did you get to the 4:1 figure? Besides the XV9, there's no battlesuit that can take 4 Drones.

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deathboon
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#17 » Aug 05 2017 01:48

Easy, just take an additional drone squadron for every 2 battle suits. So if you bring 6 crisis and 2 commanders, then take their max compliment + 3 squads of 4 drones in whatever combination of gun or marker drone you prefer. And just be prepared to get them as close to your manta strike as you can.
This gives you a boatload of ablative wounds and supporting fire.

Also, always manta strike, always. Save mont'ka and kouyon for subsequent turns. A powerful alpha is incredibly important in this edition. Your whole force should be geared toward delivering maximum fire power to the most dangerous enemy units as early as possible and then surviving the enemies next turn so you can do it again the next turn.

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Arka0415
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Re: Struggling with space marines

Post#18 » Aug 05 2017 02:29

deathboon wrote:Easy, just take an additional drone squadron for every 2 battle suits. So if you bring 6 crisis and 2 commanders, then take their max compliment + 3 squads of 4 drones in whatever combination of gun or marker drone you prefer. And just be prepared to get them as close to your manta strike as you can.
This gives you a boatload of ablative wounds and supporting fire.


Why use a rule like "4:1" though? It sounds a bit needlessly complex to me. Your own example has 8 Battlesuits and 28 Drones.

The reason I wouldn't use a hard-and-fast rule is that Drones perform different functions on different Battlesuits. For example, a Commander with Missile Pods shouldn't take any drones. A regular XV8 squad should take 6 Drones because that's viable for Manta Strike, and a Fusion Commander should take Shield Drones to make use of the Character rule.

If I had to write a rule, I'd say "Take as many Drones as you can on any Battlesuits that intend to operate in front of your lines."

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