Know your Support Systems.

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Know your Support Systems.

Post#1 » Aug 08 2017 11:51

So, 8th edition is now out and all your old Crisis suits are left without a third weapon. So you turn to the support system list for help in making them worth their points again. Or perhaps you want to mount these on a different sort of Battleusit, maybe tweaking out your Stormsurge since you dropped so much money on it? But what do you take? Here are my analysis' of the 8e support systems and how to use them. Feel free to add your own opinions and advice for them though.

Advanced Targeting System: Good for Flamers and Burst Cannons, quite nice for stealth suits, VERY good for Coldstars. Not worth it for anything else. Chances are your commander won't need it, since that's the best place to mount Fusion Blasters.

Counterfire Defense Systems: Only worth taking with 2 Burst Cannons or a Coldstar. Even then it's very situational. I'd say only take it if you expect to get charged often.

Drone Controller: Yes. Remember that your Crisis suits are glorified Gun Drone delivery systems with an added bite in 8e. A single squad of 9 Crisis' with 2 drones apiece will net you 72 Str 5 shots that hit on 4's. With the right use of Deep Striking and positioning even Typhus will be at risk of falling to the sheer volume of dakka you provide. And it's only 5 points. Only take one or two though depending on how you space the drones out, sadly they do not stack with each other. But that's what Markerlights are for. :evil:

Early Warning Override: This is only worth taking with a Stormsurge or a Broadside honestly. Granted it does work pretty well with Riptides but if you're spending that many points just get a Stormsurge or a Y'Vahra. Only field a Riptide if, like me, you lack the better units or the money to get them.

Multi-Tracker:..Made useless by just one markerlight. If it's something you're dedicating more than one weapon to, chances are it's going to have at least one markerlight anyways.

Shield Generators: Good for commanders, Coldstars and stealth suits. Decent for Crisis Suits if you expect a lot of high AP weaponry. Barely worth it for Stormsurges. Not worth the points for Ghostkeels. Make sure you know what you're facing before you dedicate a slot for it. Especially if your opponent is going heavy on weak Dakka, in which case you might want to take;

Stimulant Injector: It's a 1/6 chance to ignore a wound. Pretty much mandatory if you deploy a Stormsurge or Riptide (Though again, only if you have no better models). Ghostkeels benefit from it too, so it may be worth taking, especially since they're so good at being DISTRACTION Ghostkeels. Everything else... I wouldn't bother.

Target Lock: Pretty Decent for Broadsides, Coldstars and sometimes stealth suits. Everything else though I would skip it.

Velocity Trackers: Awesome if you face a lot of units with the "Fly" keyword without the "Hard to Hit" one such as Assault Marines or Gargoyles. Great against those that do have it. But obviously you don't want to use it if the enemy doesn't field many fliers.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2909

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#2 » Aug 08 2017 12:20

CelticBarbarian wrote:Advanced Targeting System: Good for Flamers and Burst Cannons, quite nice for stealth suits, VERY good for Coldstars. Not worth it for anything else. Chances are your commander won't need it, since that's the best place to mount Fusion Blasters.

It's not "good" for Flamer and Burst Cannons. It's okay-ish. Very situational. Against any target with worse armor than 2+ it's worse than just taking an additional weapon.
It's good for Stealth Suits, Coldstars, Missile-sides, Stormsurges and Dakka-tides simply because they don't have the option of an additional weapon and their high rate of low AP shooting works well with an item that improves AP for obvious reasons.

CelticBarbarian wrote:Shield Generators: Good for commanders, Coldstars and stealth suits. Decent for Crisis Suits if you expect a lot of high AP weaponry. Barely worth it for Stormsurges. Not worth the points for Ghostkeels. Make sure you know what you're facing before you dedicate a slot for it. Especially if your opponent is going heavy on weak Dakka, in which case you might want to take;

Shield Gens are generally not worth it since you could just as well take Shield Drones with you.
An exception would be a Coldstar since that one wants to be mobile without having to hide behind other units all the time and the Stormsurge since it can't let Drones tank for it.

CelticBarbarian wrote:Target Lock: Pretty Decent for Broadsides, Coldstars and sometimes stealth suits. Everything else though I would skip it.

Uhm what? It's THE support system for the bigger suits. Pretty much mandatory for Ghostkeels and Riptides unless you have a lot Markerlights in your list or expect to lose them rather early due your opponents alpha strike capability.



I agree on the rest though.

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relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 69

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#3 » Aug 08 2017 01:02

CelticBarbarian wrote:Advanced Targeting System: Good for Flamers and Burst Cannons, quite nice for stealth suits, VERY good for Coldstars. Not worth it for anything else. Chances are your commander won't need it, since that's the best place to mount Fusion Blasters.


ATS is also a fair way to save points with CIBs and MPs. It's a decent savings for only a marginal efficiency loss. Also amazing on a Stormsurge, since ATS is a force-multiplying effect, and a SS armed with Burst Cannons can produce an average of 30 S5 shots in a turn.

CelticBarbarian wrote:Shield Generators: Good for commanders, Coldstars and stealth suits. Decent for Crisis Suits if you expect a lot of high AP weaponry. Barely worth it for Stormsurges. Not worth the points for Ghostkeels. Make sure you know what you're facing before you dedicate a slot for it. Especially if your opponent is going heavy on weak Dakka, in which case you might want to take;


Could not disagree with you more about Stormsurges. At only T7, no access to Saviour Protocols, and having such a huge footprint, your Stormsurge will likely be wrecked if not badly damaged by a single round of shooting without a Shield Generator.

CelticBarbarian wrote:Stimulant Injector: It's a 1/6 chance to ignore a wound. Pretty much mandatory if you deploy a Stormsurge or Riptide (Though again, only if you have no better models). Ghostkeels benefit from it too, so it may be worth taking, especially since they're so good at being DISTRACTION Ghostkeels. Everything else... I wouldn't bother.


This is where you completely lost me. Stims are "mandatory" on a Stormsurge but Shield Generators are "barely worth it"? I couldn't disagree more.

Stims are fine, but you seem to be drastically over-valuing Stims over Shield Generators in the case of Stormsurges.

CelticBarbarian wrote:Target Lock: Pretty Decent for Broadsides, Coldstars and sometimes stealth suits. Everything else though I would skip it.


Y'vahra, Ghostkeels, Riptides all require it.

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#4 » Aug 08 2017 01:34

relasine wrote:
Could not disagree with you more about Stormsurges. At only T7, no access to Saviour Protocols, and having such a huge footprint, your Stormsurge will likely be wrecked if not badly damaged by a single round of shooting without a Shield Generator.


The term "barely worth it" basically implies that while you need to take it, it's a whopping 40 points to mount it. It's only worth taking on a Stormsurge because you're already sinking many points into it and it has the firepower to make it worth keeping alive. It's only thanks to these factors that makes up its points. I might have phrased it badly, but I stand by the basic meaning behind it.

relasine wrote:
CelticBarbarian wrote:Stimulant Injector: It's a 1/6 chance to ignore a wound. Pretty much mandatory if you deploy a Stormsurge or Riptide (Though again, only if you have no better models). Ghostkeels benefit from it too, so it may be worth taking, especially since they're so good at being DISTRACTION Ghostkeels. Everything else... I wouldn't bother.


This is where you completely lost me. Stims are "mandatory" on a Stormsurge but Shield Generators are "barely worth it"? I couldn't disagree more.

Stims are fine, but you seem to be drastically over-valuing Stims over Shield Generators in the case of Stormsurges.


You kind of need both if you want it to survive for very long since the enemy's likely to divert a large amount of firepower its way. This is why I say they're mandatory.

relasine wrote:
CelticBarbarian wrote:Target Lock: Pretty Decent for Broadsides, Coldstars and sometimes stealth suits. Everything else though I would skip it.


Y'vahra, Ghostkeels, Riptides all require it.


No they don't "Require it". They might fall into the same category as the Broadsides, and I probably should have included them. but these can easily be replicated with markerlights. Particularly when you can add another 4 markerlights for the exact same price, and have them apply benefits across the board.

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#5 » Aug 08 2017 01:39

Panzer wrote:Uhm what? It's THE support system for the bigger suits. Pretty much mandatory for Ghostkeels and Riptides unless you have a lot Markerlights in your list or expect to lose them rather early due your opponents alpha strike capability.



I agree on the rest though.


First off, you really should expect them to get targeted. Especially the riptide since it's now such a massive waste of points. :::(

And second, if you don't have loads of markerlights then what are you doing playing Tau? Chances are if it's something you're targeting with heavy weapons, you're going to shower it in markerlights anyways.

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 249

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#6 » Aug 08 2017 02:35

CelticBarbarian wrote:The term "barely worth it" basically implies that while you need to take it, it's a whopping 40 points to mount it. It's only worth taking on a Stormsurge because you're already sinking many points into it and it has the firepower to make it worth keeping alive. It's only thanks to these factors that makes up its points. I might have phrased it badly, but I stand by the basic meaning behind it.


"Barely worth it" means "nowhere near essential, but not too terrible never to take". In reality a Shield Gen should be the first thing you give your Stormsurge

You kind of need both if you want it to survive for very long since the enemy's likely to divert a large amount of firepower its way. This is why I say they're mandatory.


The issue with the Stim isn't the cost but taking up one of the two remaining slots, which are often better suited to the ATS and the EWO. It's certainly up for equal contention with those 2, but is not essential. Any opponent worth their salt will be dumping all their D6 damage shots into the Stormsurge. A Shield Gen will negate half of all damage rolls completely, a Stim only negates 1/6th of the total damage done.

CelticBarbarian wrote:No they don't "Require it". They might fall into the same category as the Broadsides, and I probably should have included them. but these can easily be replicated with markerlights. Particularly when you can add another 4 markerlights for the exact same price, and have them apply benefits across the board.


You can't add another 4 markerlights for the exact same price as you need something to carry them. To get 3 markerlight hits you need 6 pathfinders on average. That will cost you 4 times the Target lock.


And second, if you don't have loads of markerlights then what are you doing playing Tau? Chances are if it's something you're targeting with heavy weapons, you're going to shower it in markerlights anyways.


Because it's 8th edition and we have a combination of a "meh" markerlight table, VERY cheap support systems that replicate markerlights, and accurate deep strike for all our crisis suits, meaning they can very well be outside of range for all of your markerlights depending on deployment type/mission/opponent.

Most of the time people are looking to scatter a few markerlights around to get the re-roll 1s. If they have seeker missiles they'll probably go for 2 hits. But 3 and 4 hits offer minimal benefit for the points required to field the markerlights, compared to getting re-roll 1s on an additional target. I played a list yesterday with 14 markerlights in it, and that was a LOT compared to other games I've played in 8th. This may change when we get our codex, but for now lots of markerlights aren't as essential, especially as they are no longer consumed

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#7 » Aug 08 2017 02:46

Well I do disagree with negating cover. That's always a plus in my book, especially if you're firing from the right angles. But I will admit our potential for them has been somewhat dampened. I frankly think the Seeker Missile one should be higher on the table with the plus one to hit taking its place. Perhaps if they went above 5 we'd see a greater use of them. Old habits die hard, y'know?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2909

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#8 » Aug 08 2017 02:50

Seeker Missiles higher on the target? That's crazy talk. They are already barely worth taking or at least not worth including in any list building strategies. Making them even harder to use....you could just as well remove them from the Codex.

You seem to have some very very different views about how things work than most others here.

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#9 » Aug 08 2017 02:59

Are you saying the plus one to hit, what used to be the main reason people used markerlights, shouldn't be lower? Perhaps the 3rd slot then if not the 2nd... of course I'm still holding out hope that Seeker Missiles will be raised to d3 mortal wounds.

And what can I say? I'm an Iconoclast. Why do you think the FSE appeals to me?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2909

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#10 » Aug 08 2017 03:05

Lol no I didn't say that at all, didn't I?
Yes I said since the Index got leaked that the 3rd bonus should be a +1 to-hit bonus as well instead of the pseudo +1 to-hit bonus it is now.
though discussing the markerlight table is not the point of this thread, no?

CelticBarbarian
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Know your Support Systems.

Post#11 » Aug 08 2017 03:52

No they're not, it's just that I tend to view these sorts of things in a "Can they do something you can't get elsewhere" sort of light. This is why I bring up Markerlights.

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