Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Aedeeg
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 14

Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Post#1 » Aug 15 2017 06:46

I have created a spreadsheet with the typical commander weapons against some standard toughness/saves. I will be expanding this in the future as I know that I haven't covered everything. I have left out flamers because let's be honest, they should never be taken on a commander. All of the numbers are averaged for simplicity (D6=3.5, D3=2). You can play with the numbers a bit to see the extremes but the averages paint a pretty good picture for deciding which loadout to go with. I have included avg wound tables with and without an ATS. Each entry is for one weapon so multiply the wounds be the number you are going with. I think the math on all of this is correct but be sure to let me know if I have screwed something up. I have a spreadsheet for crisis suits as well that needs a bit of cleaning up before I make a thread for it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dlm46WZQWm_ce-JBPaqNKKYjk-QNn7IGiZMrY0VKrL8/edit?usp=sharing

Aug 16: Updated to include Points Per Wound
Aug 22: Updated to separate Coldstar entry and added Flamer


Some quick analysis shows that 4 CIB (6.944 Vs T3/4+, 3.333 Vs T5/2+, 2.222 Vs T8/3+) put out more average wounds than 3 CIB + ATS (6.250 Vs T3/4+, 3.333 Vs T5/2+, 2.083 Vs T8/3+). Oddly enough they have the same average wounds against TEQ and are very close on Knights but the extra gun shines on lower toughness/save models. The only caveat would be points. The CIB costs another 10 points over the ATS.

The Fusion blaster shows a high avg wound rate on Low toughness/low save models but you have to take into account the D6 damage. to accurately show the wound rate you would need to change the damage column to 1 or 2 respectively. On average, the CIB (overcharging) beats out the fusion blaster on harder targets. 4 CIB vs a Knight equates to 4.444 wounds, 4 FB is 3.889. Keep in mind that these are complete averages and that the FB is going against a 5++ while the CIB takes on the Knight's 3+ with -1ap. 4 CIB have a chance to spike out doing a whopping 10 wounds, while 4 FB spike out at 6.666. The low end of the scale shows them doing the exact same number of wounds (1.111).

Against TEQ and Medium vehicles (T7, 3+) is where the Fusion Blaster shines. 4 shots averaging 5.185 and 7.777 respectively (3.333 and 5.926 for the CIBs). If it doesn'h have an invuln save, the FB will melt it.

Download it, play with it and let me know your thoughts/revisions.

I hope this helps people out with their loadout choices!
Last edited by Aedeeg on Aug 22 2017 12:18, edited 3 times in total.

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 102

Re: Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Post#2 » Aug 16 2017 11:37

Very good work you've done here! One thing I would like to see is a breakdown of points per wound as both a function of the total model cost and as a function of the single weapon to wound cost.

For instance, we know a CIB is a better weapon than a BC (especially on a commander), but what is the point efficiency and where is the point where that efficiency may flip?

I.E. - the math behind why you put 4 FB on a Commander and not 4 FB on 4 Stealth suits. We can explain all day about the different "why's" but the math is the part I'm interested in.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Aedeeg
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 14

Re: Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Post#3 » Aug 16 2017 01:48

CDR_Farsight wrote:Very good work you've done here! One thing I would like to see is a breakdown of points per wound as both a function of the total model cost and as a function of the single weapon to wound cost.

For instance, we know a CIB is a better weapon than a BC (especially on a commander), but what is the point efficiency and where is the point where that efficiency may flip?

I.E. - the math behind why you put 4 FB on a Commander and not 4 FB on 4 Stealth suits. We can explain all day about the different "why's" but the math is the part I'm interested in.


This is something that I definitely want to do. I am still trying to figure out how to make it work in an interactive spreadsheet ie. one where you can select the number of weapons and it will show the wounds done and points per different targets.

I see a lot of talk on the forums about 4 CIB vs 3 CIB + ATS. A lot of the speculation seems to have no solid backing or incorrect math and that was the main reason i developed this spreadsheet. Eventually i hope to have charts for most other units and contain a lot more data.

The thing I found most shocking was the CIB vs Fusion Blaster. The CIB seems to be just plain better. I will say though that my math does not take into account being in melta range with the FBs. I realize that you are more likely to see 4+ damage with it when rolling 2d6 keeping the highest but I believe that looking at absolute averages will give you more consistent results. The key to winning consistently is trying to minimize opportunities for getting bit by RNG. The CIB gives you more range, more consistency and more diversity.

I do think that a Coldstar with the HOBC and MP is a great choice and can really help getting out an early Kauyon or Mont'ka. Its damage output isn't as good as a CIB or FB 'mander but the utility can't be denied. It's hard to show the utility of a 20" + 20" move through math but once you put it on the table it can be crucial.

I'll revise this chart and once I have a solid format i will move it over to things like Crisis Suits, Stealths, Ghostkeels etc.

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Aedeeg
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 14

Re: Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Post#4 » Aug 16 2017 06:08

I updated it to include PPW for the weapons + chassis. It has separate columns for "# of weapons" and "# of weapons w/ ATS" to allow for easy Avg Wnd and PPW comparison between the two. The HOBC may end up being removed in favor of a separate Coldstar Entry. As it stands it seems like the Coldstar suit upgrade alone costs 14pts (76 for chassis, 14 for Coldstar, 20 for HOBC and 24 for MP =134) so I left the HOBC cost at 34 for now.

Quick analysis shows that even by a PPW standard the ATS is not really worth it. It helps against TEQ but only marginally. FB is better for Medium vehicles and Multi wound models that don't have an invuln save, for everything else the CIB reigns supreme. Overcharging does run the risk of wounding yourself but it's easy enough to get 1 marker light onto your target and be almost worry free.

The burst cannon is interesting for small targets. It shows a better PPW vs MEQ and down. The ATS is actually beneficial here vs TEQ, you lose some efficiency vs Tau equivalent and down though, but only slightly. It might be worth the points in some cases but I think that we have enough access to burst cannons from elsewhere in the faction. With CIBs only available on the Crisis chassis and their ability to take on almost any enemy I don't see why you would take anything else.

One exception that I do like is taking a unit of stealths with a DC/ATS and Homing beacon. This can be used to drop a Fusion commander w/drones in melta range and pop a transport and have the Stealths + Drones shoot the units that pop out. This depends on the transport though, In melta range a Fusion Commander will probably do about 11 wounds to a T7/3+ Transport so it may need a couple shots from another unit to help do the last 1 or 2 wounds if you don't luck out on some damage rolls.

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Aedeeg
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 14

Re: Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Post#5 » Aug 22 2017 12:38

I updated to make the Coldstar a complete separate entry and added the flamer for comparison with the Crisis Suits.

Also made a post on Crisis and Stealth Suits similar to this one (http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=26398).

I still stand by the fact that 4x CIB is the best loadout and that taking 1 Coldstar and 1 or 2 4x Fusion to deal with transports or other high toughness models without invuln saves is a good idea. I am still torn between taking drones with the commanders or not. Ablative wounds are nice and the drones themselves are amazing but for missions with kill points I think you give up to many by taking 2 man drone teams.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 385

Re: Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Post#6 » Aug 22 2017 01:08

ITC missions have KP as power level not one point per unit and in general I feel this and the change so that whoever finishes deployment first gets +1 to roll off who gets first turn to be very good smart changes without going overboard. Still emphasizes drops but doesn't make it the only thing.

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Aedeeg
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 14

Re: Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Post#7 » Aug 22 2017 02:43

I definitely agree with your point about ITC missions and would prefer to play them any chance I can. I would definitely tailor my list more towards those by taking drones with commanders. Some tournaments will be running straight rule book though so I think it's something to be mindful of and build your list towards the format you are playing.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 385

Re: Commander Loadout Spreadsheet

Post#8 » Aug 22 2017 03:00

Aedeeg wrote:I definitely agree with your point about ITC missions and would prefer to play them any chance I can. I would definitely tailor my list more towards those by taking drones with commanders. Some tournaments will be running straight rule book though so I think it's something to be mindful of and build your list towards the format you are playing.

For sure be mindful of the format but I feel like most DECENT ones will go by ITC at least for the time being.

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