Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Duckumentary
Shas
Posts: 7

Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#1 » Aug 19 2017 01:11

So, I've been looking over the current Tau options and reading through the forums to see people's feedback to get an idea for the best way to optimize firing output and uncover the synergy within the army. The number one thing that jumped out to me was the redundancy of re-rolling 1's. The Ethereal provides this ability, a single markerlight, a multitracker, and also Shadowsun's drone. At first this seemed like an oversight of simplicity and was done without regard to the viability of Tau in 8th edition. But, given the amount of Ion weapons we are able to field it seemed more and more like there were units that were designed to synergize with the rest of the army. If you are taking Pathfinders, you can either rely on their own markerlights to benefit them against the same target, or you can park an Ethereal next to them for a re-roll buff if you decide you want to fire the Ions at one target that you want D3 Str8 shots against while turning the markerlights into another threat that your Battlesuits/Vehicles need to focus down. If you're infiltrating a Ghostkeel with Ion weapons then why not bring Shadowsun for support? Her shield drones should help to absorb some of the fire if they are placed within 3" of the ghostkeel, and then she can allow it to reroll ones while again, allowing your markerlights to focus an independent target for another powerhouse unit. I will admit that the Multitracker seems less than optimal, other support systems / more weapons just seem to be more viable on Crisis Suits, Riptides, and Ghostkeels. Stormsurges do get 3 support slots, but they don't have ion weapons so it seems like a moot point. But if you were trying to run a Farsight themed army I guess it could be worth trying.

What do my you all think? Ion weapons seem strong. If I'm going up against anything with Toughness 7, I want to be punishing it by wounding it on 3+, and I can get that in mass with Ion weapons. The importance of being able to wound high toughness, high wound count with ease is crucial within the meta I'm seeing develop. Because frankly, anything else I can mop up with attrition of fire form Firewarriors and Gun Drones at Str 5. So what do you all think? Is 8th edition the Ion edition? Is this a way to double or triple the amount of Str. 8 shots coming out in conjunction with the Quad Fusion commanders? Thoughts? Opinions? Experiences?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2926

Re: Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#2 » Aug 19 2017 06:34

Duckumentary wrote:So, I've been looking over the current Tau options and reading through the forums to see people's feedback to get an idea for the best way to optimize firing output and uncover the synergy within the army. The number one thing that jumped out to me was the redundancy of re-rolling 1's. The Ethereal provides this ability, a single markerlight, a multitracker, and also Shadowsun's drone. At first this seemed like an oversight of simplicity and was done without regard to the viability of Tau in 8th edition. But, given the amount of Ion weapons we are able to field it seemed more and more like there were units that were designed to synergize with the rest of the army. If you are taking Pathfinders, you can either rely on their own markerlights to benefit them against the same target, or you can park an Ethereal next to them for a re-roll buff if you decide you want to fire the Ions at one target that you want D3 Str8 shots against while turning the markerlights into another threat that your Battlesuits/Vehicles need to focus down. If you're infiltrating a Ghostkeel with Ion weapons then why not bring Shadowsun for support? Her shield drones should help to absorb some of the fire if they are placed within 3" of the ghostkeel, and then she can allow it to reroll ones while again, allowing your markerlights to focus an independent target for another powerhouse unit. I will admit that the Multitracker seems less than optimal, other support systems / more weapons just seem to be more viable on Crisis Suits, Riptides, and Ghostkeels. Stormsurges do get 3 support slots, but they don't have ion weapons so it seems like a moot point. But if you were trying to run a Farsight themed army I guess it could be worth trying.

What do my you all think? Ion weapons seem strong. If I'm going up against anything with Toughness 7, I want to be punishing it by wounding it on 3+, and I can get that in mass with Ion weapons. The importance of being able to wound high toughness, high wound count with ease is crucial within the meta I'm seeing develop. Because frankly, anything else I can mop up with attrition of fire form Firewarriors and Gun Drones at Str 5. So what do you all think? Is 8th edition the Ion edition? Is this a way to double or triple the amount of Str. 8 shots coming out in conjunction with the Quad Fusion commanders? Thoughts? Opinions? Experiences?


For Ion weapons that reduce their number of shots when overcharging (like the Ghostkeel) it really only is worth it against units with multiple wounds. The additional strength is nice but usually gets 'balanced' by the lower amount of shots.
And is 8th the Ion edition? Well....less than it was for 7th I'd say considering that Riptides with Ion weapons aren't exactly good anymore and that Ghostkeel can't shred tanks with their Ion weapon anymore just by being part of an OSC formation.

Duckumentary
Shas
Posts: 7

Re: Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#3 » Aug 19 2017 07:52

Well I don't see anyone else discussing this in detail, so I wanted to explore it further. Discuss ideas and explore strategy in order to have synergy between units. This is how I have grown as a Tau player since 5th edition (Until my 5000 pt army was stolen during 7th ed) and is what I am interested in exploring here. To prompt a discussion, I see a lot of complaints about the lack of variety and I'm trying to explore the notion that it is built that way intentionally rather than out of laziness by the codex writer. Obviously high toughness models will have multiple wounds, so I'm not really sure what your point is there....

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Overheal
Shas'Saal
Posts: 177

Re: Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#4 » Aug 19 2017 09:04

Have you costed the ion weapons though? Check the Ion Accelerator for example.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 510

Re: Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#5 » Aug 19 2017 10:08

Pessimism seems to be growing in the gaming(video and table) communities worldwide. That, and the T'au are in a tough spot atm, so some people are finding it hard to have a positive outlook on them.
The days of goodly English is went

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2926

Re: Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#6 » Aug 20 2017 03:58

Duckumentary wrote:But I remember when this was a very friendly and helpful community and I find it disappointing to be met with what is essentially a response meant to humiliate me with no constructive feedback regarding the topic.

That's definitely not the case though. If you understood my post like that..well I'm only responsible for what I write, not what others understand and I don't see how I could have offended you with what I wrote. Basic rules of cummunication.

Now back to topic.
Yes high T models usually have multiple wounds. However the jump from S7 to S8 is a rather big one because it lets you wound MEQ on a 2+ instead of 3+ as well and that's where my comment comes into play. Even if it means that you'd wound Marines on a 2+ the lower amount of shots outweights that advantage again unless it's a unit with multiple wounds (like Terminators, Possessed, Primaris, etc.).

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Security Drone
Kor'Vesa
Posts: 51
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Re: Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#7 » Aug 20 2017 07:53

Treat each other with Respect.
This can't be over-stressed. Intelligent criticism from an informed position is encouraged, but cut-downs and sarcasm are not. Preview your post before you submit it. Is it possible the other person will be insulted or will misunderstand your points? If so, edit it. If you're too irritated to think straight, come back and post later when you're feeling more diplomatic. Remember, our foremost goal as a community is to help each other improve, not to set up "pecking orders" or show off our superior intelligence/understanding/martial prowess. A little bit of humility in your posts goes a long way towards getting folks to listen to what you have to say: remember, many of the folks reading your posts have been playing for a darn long time and know their stuff.
Obey and Comply.

Rathstar
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 76

Re: Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#8 » Aug 20 2017 05:01

One exception from Ion weapons overcharging having less shots is the Ion Rifle on the Pathfinder. Its a very cheap option as well (a Pathfinder with an Ion Rifle being the cost of 1.5 fire warriors). Being only Damage 1 its only good for plinking a few wounds off vehicles, but it a nice addition to the rest of my anti tank, and I shouldn't lose many models to overheating once I fire at a unit that is markerlighted.

The Cyclic Ion Blaster is a nice versatile weapon, and I use 3 on a Commander with ATS, however it doesn't have the range of the Missile Pod, and is outclassed against tanks by the Fusion gun

However for the rest the extra strength is normally offset by the less shots, and leaves the Ion weapons lacking when compared against other weapons for any particular role.

Oddly enough I really like the profile of the Nova charged Ion Accelerator, but the weapon and the base Riptide seems just too expensive. However I probably will try it out with loads of drones nearby to soak up low AP multi Damage shots coming the Riptide's way. It would take the place of a Stormsurge in my 2k list, and although the Nova charged Ion Accelerator would be better than the Pulse Driver Cannon I would be losing out on a lot of Str5 firepower

Rathstar

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Plainshow
Shas
Posts: 24

Re: Ions and Re-Roll 1's

Post#9 » Aug 31 2017 02:05

Rathstar wrote:One exception from Ion weapons overcharging having less shots is the Ion Rifle on the Pathfinder. Its a very cheap option as well (a Pathfinder with an Ion Rifle being the cost of 1.5 fire warriors). Being only Damage 1 its only good for plinking a few wounds off vehicles, but it a nice addition to the rest of my anti tank, and I shouldn't lose many models to overheating once I fire at a unit that is markerlighted.
After looking at the Pathfinders as a whole, I like the Ion Rifle too. The fact it is so cheap is tempting in its own right, but considering the novel way it works when Overcharged, and I really like the upgrade. I was already running three squads of Pathfinders, and for a little more than 100 points, I can splash 9 Ion Rifles in. I've got them up next in my "to paint" order, so I'll give them a try soon. On paper, they are very promising.

The main drawbacks to Overcharging the Rifle is the change to Heavy and the 1s To Hit. With the other Ion weapons you'd also be look ing at a loss of shot quantity, but here it can actually increase your rate of fire! Even in double tap range the risk of loosing firepower is mitigated by having multiple rifles to smooth out the averages, and you should break even. As for the 1s To Hit, well, we all know that we can get plenty of ways to reroll those, so no real problem there. Even if you do lose the occasional Pathfinder, it's not going to be much of a problem considering the cost in points. The change to a Heavy weapon would be an issue, but the main reason you take Pathfinders is for Markerlights, and they are already Heavy, so it fits right in.

All in all cranking out 3d3 Str8 AP-1 shots at up to 30" is very enticing for such a bargain cost per unit. They won't set the world on fire, but right now I'm looking for any little gems that help me avoid running multiple Commanders.

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