Rethinking my whole army.

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Morgrim
Shas'Saal
Posts: 18

Rethinking my whole army.

Post#1 » Aug 27 2017 06:26

So I played a few games with my fire warrior and hammerhead heavy army and i have become so disillusioned that I traded most of my army for an ork army!
Now i still love the Tau but I lack the finesse to play them in that style so now im thinking about a suit heavy army as i still love the fluff and look of the Tau. Thinking about a command detachment of commanders and coldstars plus a vanguard detachment made up of a commander and 2 ghostkeels and a 6 man unit of stealth suits.
My question is what should i consider for my commander loadout? Knowing i have to have half the army on the table i figure the Vanguard could be a coldstar commander and maybe one more in the command detachment. this os for 1500pts to start with and thinking about adding a R'Vahnra or a stormsurge later just becasue. Any advice?

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Quorgyle
Shas'Saal
Posts: 61

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#2 » Aug 27 2017 07:34

I think that's pretty straight forward....go either:
- Commander with 4 Fusion Blaster
- Commander with 4 Cyclic Ion Blaster

Another option with Stealth Suits and the Homing Beacon is Flamer Commander, haven't used them yet so not sure what the exact loadout is, they are not bad on normal Crisis Suits as well, the 4+ BS is ignored in that case.

At least that's what I'm going. 2 Commanders with Fusion Blaster, as much CIB Commanders as I have room for and maybe 1 or two Commanders with Drone Controller and Missile Pods if you go Drone heavy. If not, just go with the 2 options. And 1 Coldstar can be useful as well.
Cyclic Ion Blasters are very versatile in my opinion, whatever you shoot at. Of course the Fusion Blasters are for melting big monsters and vehicles, except if you go against Necrons.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 324

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#3 » Aug 27 2017 10:17

Yeah, T'au took somewhere a wrong turn going into 8th edition. The finesse you are talking about is mostly gone and fielding a list full of Commanders is not even fun anymore.
If you want to win any games as T'au your possibilities are far more strict what you can put on the table.
I want quality shooting back instead of quantity and the ability to mix and match different units into a synergizing army.
Instead we get "tons of shots" and marker source A, B and C. Build your list.

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 208

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#4 » Aug 28 2017 12:03

I think there is still a ton of finesse out there but it requires such a huge shift in play style that many cannot wrap their head around it:

1. Gunline is gone.
2. Good Tau armies do not require spam
3. "Up close and personal" is the new "Stay back and shoot"
4. Crisis suits are better than you think
5. Alpha strike is everything
6. Everything you have can and should charge the enemy as soon as possible

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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 46

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#5 » Aug 28 2017 01:20

Seriously consider taking a Coldstar as your Warlord. It does wonders in terms of flexibility.

But other than that, if you want suits, FB and CIB commanders are definitely the way to go. I take both with 2 marker drones, as rerolling 1s is wonderful on commanders.

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 37

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#6 » Aug 28 2017 04:02

deathboon wrote:I think there is still a ton of finesse out there but it requires such a huge shift in play style that many cannot wrap their head around it:

1. Gunline is gone.
2. Good Tau armies do not require spam
3. "Up close and personal" is the new "Stay back and shoot"
4. Crisis suits are better than you think
5. Alpha strike is everything
6. Everything you have can and should charge the enemy as soon as possible

I strongly disagree that gunline is dead and up close replaces stay back replaces it as 4 firewarrior squads with a range extend drone & Fireblade in the middle is still very powerful. My gunline like that was wiping out marine biker squads with ease out to 36” range with a 18" rapid fire range. Add in 2 Gunrigs and you have a very powerfull gunline.

EDIT: Most of the time I go half gunline and half Up close and personal as both are very effective.

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 208

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#7 » Aug 28 2017 08:22

My point largely is that there is a huge shift in viable tactics for T'au from what used to come easy (line up your stuff and shoot like crazy) to what can be done with T'au today. The top table BAO player was an exceptional example of this if you're looking for video evidence. The problem is that as T'au players, we've been programmed to believe that fighting in the assault is just not something we can be successful at. And to some extent that may be true; if you're looking at the assault as something used purely as a means to inflict damage. For T'au that's not what it's about. Instead for us close combat is a way to protect our units, and that is massively counter intuitive.

The idea here, as was demonstrated beautifully by the BAO player whose name i can't remember, is to charge enemy units to prevent return fire, and by bubble wrapping the enemy, not only do you prevent that squad from shooting you on their turn, but you can stop them from falling back as well which also prevents their other units from shooting us. by doing this you effectively deny your opponent the opportunity to participate effectively in their shooting phase.

Now this isn't the end all be all, but it makes a huge difference in the first 2 turns of the game. If you can deliver a massive crisis suit alpha strike using stealth suits with homing beacons, you can deal serious damage to enemy units and then charge survivors to protect your units from return fire on your opponents turn. This should deny them so much in the early stages of the game that they simply can't catch up. It's not going to be an easy thing to do. success will mean being familiar enough with your opponents list to correctly prioritize the targets of your alpha and assault.

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thesnailmaster
Shas'Saal
Posts: 137

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#8 » Aug 28 2017 10:29

deathboon wrote: For T'au that's not what it's about. Instead for us close combat is a way to protect our units, and that is massively counter intuitive.


I for one am glad that I didn't have to spend ages learning this, before if you got charged you had to hope that the enemy killed your whole unit, so your army could still shoot, now just being able to pull back, not worry about running away because of a few minor casualties ect really improve a lot of builds.

I second the point about crisis suits being "better" than perceived, not in a shooting sense (well if you have flamers then sure) but in the ability to tie up S4/5 and lower units that have very little CC threat, even a few power weapon wounds can just get passed to drones anyway.

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 91

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#9 » Aug 28 2017 10:51

Suits are still pretty strong, and are actually very durable with drones around. You just need to decide if you want a <8" alpha or 18" alpha.

I guess you could go in at 12" for rapid fire plasma, but I've found that to be extremely unreliable in 8th which is a great disappointment since I have about 40 magnetized plasma guns for my FSE suits...they aren't generally strong enough to go to 4+ against vehicles, and they don't get enough shots to wipe hordes.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Aedeeg
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 14

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#10 » Aug 28 2017 04:24

I'd say you want a Coldstar warlord, CIB and/or FB Commanders, stealth team with a homing beacon and a crisis suit team with flamers. The horde killing potential of the flamer crisis team is amazing and a commander's BS2+ goes to waste with flamers. I really like breacher's in devilfish as well. My main playstyle is a highly mobilized core army with commanders/crisis suits dropping in to support where you need it. And remember, against all Tau players judgments, Always Be Charging! Well, mabye not always but most of the time you want to charge your suits into combat, try to exploit the FLY keyword to your advantage as much as possible. If you need to clean up a few stragglers or know that they can't reasonably kill your suits in melee the next round, charge in and try to protect them from shooting, forcing your opponent to retreat or stay in combat.

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 208

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#11 » Aug 28 2017 06:38

I'd say 2 - 3 commanders is plenty, and id probably run 2 as fusion with the third as either CIB or coldstar.

I'm torn between runnin 3xFlamer, or 2 x flamer+fusion on the crisis suits.

I love the breacher fish as well.

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Quorgyle
Shas'Saal
Posts: 61

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#12 » Aug 28 2017 08:14

deathboon wrote:5. Alpha strike is everything
6. Everything you have can and should charge the enemy as soon as possible



You can still manta strike just half your army, half has to be on the table when deploying ends.

And I strongly disagree on charging with everything.
First, that may have worked against Astra Militarum in that tournament, because they are a shooty army as we are. Denying shooting here is fine, but agains Marines or Tyranids I don't think it's a good idea.
Also you said "everything you have can and should charge"....this is wrong as well. You should charge maybe with flyers like the suits and devilfish, but every other unit that doesn't have the fly keyword, what's the point charging with them? Would you charge with a Pathfinder unit?

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 208

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#13 » Aug 28 2017 08:32

If they were in position to do so, and if by doing so I could protect a more valuable unit from being shot or charged for a turn, I sure would. Course I really don't see the value of pathfinders when you can have marker drones doing the same job and serving as ablative wounds for your battlesuits.

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Quorgyle
Shas'Saal
Posts: 61

Re: Rethinking my whole army.

Post#14 » Aug 28 2017 08:38

See, it's situational. A general rule "charge with everything" doesn't really apply.
I understand what you meant with that strategy, but a newcomer who's gonna stumble on this thread and read that part may not.
And as mentioned before, you want to deny the enemy shooting, not yourself....so only fly keyword units.

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