I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

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Panzer
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#37 » Oct 26 2017 06:00

GND wrote:My point that I almost always want to advance the backfield Strike Teams and fully utilize their ~9.5" movement and Rifles just don't get any shots then.

Yeah and my point is that you ususally don't even need to advance with Rifles to do the same job while not being locked into doing only that one job in case there's no need for it. ;)

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Arka0415
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#38 » Oct 26 2017 06:42

Panzer wrote:
GND wrote:My point that I almost always want to advance the backfield Strike Teams and fully utilize their ~9.5" movement and Rifles just don't get any shots then.

Yeah and my point is that you ususally don't even need to advance with Rifles to do the same job while not being locked into doing only that one job in case there's no need for it. ;)

My view is that 1 shot at BS4+ is good, 2 shots at BS5+ is better (hello Gun Drones), and 2 shots at BS4+ is best. Instead of dashing around with Pulse Carbines, move slowly but efficiently with your Pulse Rifles and you should be in business. Look at it this way- if, for any reason, you're inflicting -1 to hit on yourself, there must be a very, very good reason.

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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#39 » Oct 26 2017 08:47

But I want to move. I need to move. To job of min squads of Strikes isn't to shoot. Their shooting is negligible. Did you even read what I said?

They take up space, hold objectives (Mealstorm of War style), inhibit enemy movement. Fast movement is important for those jobs. Therefore advancing. Therefore Assault weapons. If they land a couple of shots that's a nice bonus.

I'm not fielding a static gunline of 15 Firewariors here, but 120 points of cannon fodder and utility units.

Arka0415 wrote:Look at it this way- if, for any reason, you're inflicting -1 to hit on yourself, there must be a very, very good reason.


Yes there is.

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Panzer
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#40 » Oct 26 2017 08:51

Guess I just don't see your use of them that way. I never had a situation where I would have used any of my units like that. Anyway, for that use I'd just take Drones or Kroot Hounds then.

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GND
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#41 » Oct 26 2017 09:04

Those two are not troops, have poor leadership, lack Photon grenades and in the case of hounds, cannot shoot (I am also hitting a problem of not owning enough drones, but that's my personal issue).

I was skeptical too. Try it in a couple of games.

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Panzer
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#42 » Oct 26 2017 09:16

GND wrote:Those two are not troops, have poor leadership, lack Photon grenades and in the case of hounds, cannot shoot (I am also hitting a problem of not owning enough drones, but that's my personal issue).

I was skeptical too. Try it in a couple of games.

That was just thrown in anyway. I don't have to try it because I never came in any situation where I have to move like that in my backfield in any of my games. Sorry to disappoint.

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shasocastris
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#43 » Oct 26 2017 10:14

GND wrote:They take up space, hold objectives (Mealstorm of War style), inhibit enemy movement. Fast movement is important for those jobs. Therefore advancing. Therefore Assault weapons. If they land a couple of shots that's a nice bonus.


These are all valid points. Not everything in our army has to be dedicated to killing things, and in Maelstrom missions, they probably shouldn't be. The objectives are how one wins the game. As someone who plays these missions regularly, I fully appreciate how awesome advancing and firing assault weapons are (although it tends to be with commanders). And since there are six objectives in a Maelstrom mission, it's not that absurd to consider that an advancing team of fire warriors can get from one objective to another in a single turn.

I also think it's important to not underestimate the third markerlight level. The ability to make our army effectively faster for a turn can be very off-putting to even experienced enemies.

The questions of leadership are also important. While gun drones are tougher (although Fire Warriors get cover), they suffer morale after losing 1 model. Fire Warriors suffer after 3. This type of survivability, especially in objective games, matters.

So I don't think anyone is arguing that drones don't have more raw firepower, but rather that carbine strike teams have a utility that hasn't been fully explored and is deserving of our attention.

To GND, I have two questions: Do you ever give you strike/breacher teams a markerlight? I've done this with limited success just to have extra shots scattered around. And do you have an army list you could share? I'm curious now.

Cheers!

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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#44 » Oct 27 2017 03:22

shasocastris wrote:And since there are six objectives in a Maelstrom mission, it's not that absurd to consider that an advancing team of fire warriors can get from one objective to another in a single turn.


That has happened to me multiple times actually.

shasocastris wrote:I also think it's important to not underestimate the third markerlight level. The ability to make our army effectively faster for a turn can be very off-putting to even experienced enemies.


Oh yes this is absolutely true. I'm growing fond of the 3-markelight-bonus. Not that I'm saying you should use markerlights to specifically support 5-man squads of Fire Wariors, but if you're already marking a target that needs to die (i.e. 5 lights) they can join in while being highly mobile. And if you get 1 markelight just for the basic bonus, sometimes it's worth a consideration to risk trying to get to three.

shasocastris wrote:So I don't think anyone is arguing that drones don't have more raw firepower, but rather that carbine strike teams have a utility that hasn't been fully explored and is deserving of our attention.


Aptly put.

shasocastris wrote:Do you ever give you strike/breacher teams a markerlight? I've done this with limited success just to have extra shots scattered around.

No I haven't tried that yet. I am put of by the inability to fire both the markerlight and a normal weapon and also the coin toss aspect of a single 4+ shot. When it comes to BS4+ lights (Pathfinders, Drones) I always fire 2 - 3 at the same time for that higher statistical chance of landing at least one hit. But I'll try a cascading markerlight approach in 8th someday and spread out the lights in squads. See what that does. Thou, that'll probably be a more static list than what I described here.

shasocastris wrote:And do you have an army list you could share? I'm curious now.


I don't really have a list I could share per se, as I'm still very much testing stuff in 8th (it goes slow with only 1 game/week) and my army composition varies wildly between games. But I'll give you a quick run down of some units I used with Breachers/Carbine Teams on foot and what role they played in the last 5 games I tried them.

- the Breacher/Strike Teams are always min squads
- 3 - 4 units to unlock a Battalion
- in lists with a static gunline (Hammerheads, Rvarna, Riptide, Broadsides and/or Pathfinders) the Fire Wariors are used less to take up space in my deployment zone (the gunline it self does that) and more to bubble wrap or advance forward into the midfield and do their job there.
- in more mobile lists (XV8s, XV9s, Stealth Teams, Ghostkeel, Piranhas) they protect the small parts of the army that starts in my deployment zone (Pathfinders mostly) and cover as much ground to reduce deepstrike opportunities (especially around objectives). Later in the game the less-dead squads advance to hold objective mid-table and sprinkle enemy units with shots. Squads that suffered heavier casualties (single models mostly) stay back and hide out of LoS near objectives.
- together with Stealth Teams and Coldstars they score the majority of my secure/defend objective cards
- even on foot, they easily catch up to elements of your army that deploy forward, providing some additional fire and extra overwatch shots
- in general they can support a wide variety of units and don't need much support in return, except the occasional markerlight. If you are already running an Ethereal I suggest paying the extra points for Aun'Va for the 6+ FNP and re-rolling dice for advance.

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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#45 » Oct 27 2017 04:02

GND wrote:No I haven't tried that yet. I am put of by the inability to fire both the markerlight and a normal weapon and also the coin toss aspect of a single 4+ shot. When it comes to BS4+ lights (Pathfinders, Drones) I always fire 2 - 3 at the same time for that higher statistical chance of landing at least one hit. But I'll try a cascading markerlight approach in 8th someday and spread out the lights in squads. See what that does. Thou, that'll probably be a more static list than what I described here.


I agree that they aren't the best to start the chain, but they can help finish it. Even if you've moved, consider that the markerlight can get hits four or five with a 7/12 chance of success (ignore the moving penalty and rerolling ones). It's come in handy, especially since it's often out of the blue. And at 3pts, vs 15 last edition, the markerlight is something that can be snuck into a list without much trouble.

Of course, it conflicts less with pulse rifle Strike Teams, since those will advance less anyway. On carbines/blasters, it can be hard to know, because you advance in the movement phase so you might not be able to shoot the markerlight anyway. Interestingly, where I've had the most success is breachers who I know *can't* get to an objective, and so stand still or only do a standard movement.

GND wrote:I don't really have a list I could share per se, as I'm still very much testing stuff in 8th (it goes slow with only 1 game/week) and my army composition varies wildly between games. But I'll give you a quick run down of some units I used with Breachers/Carbine Teams on foot and what role they played in the last 5 games I tried them.

- the Breacher/Strike Teams are always min squads
- 3 - 4 units to unlock a Battalion
- in lists with a static gunline (Hammerheads, Rvarna, Riptide, Broadsides and/or Pathfinders) the Fire Wariors are used less to take up space in my deployment zone (the gunline it self does that) and more to bubble wrap or advance forward into the midfield and do their job there.
- in more mobile lists (XV8s, XV9s, Stealth Teams, Ghostkeel, Piranhas) they protect the small parts of the army that starts in my deployment zone (Pathfinders mostly) and cover as much ground to reduce deepstrike opportunities (especially around objectives). Later in the game the less-dead squads advance to hold objective mid-table and sprinkle enemy units with shots. Squads that suffered heavier casualties (single models mostly) stay back and hide out of LoS near objectives.
- together with Stealth Teams and Coldstars they score the majority of my secure/defend objective cards
- even on foot, they easily catch up to elements of your army that deploy forward, providing some additional fire and extra overwatch shots
- in general they can support a wide variety of units and don't need much support in return, except the occasional markerlight. If you are already running an Ethereal I suggest paying the extra points for Aun'Va for the 6+ FNP and re-rolling dice for advance.


Thanks for this. I appreciate the broad strokes almost more than a list. Have you ever considered a brigade? You troops and FA slots can be taken up by FW and drones, cheap and play in a manner which you seem to enjoy.

Cheers!

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#46 » Oct 27 2017 04:31

Haechi wrote:I realize now that I started this topic a bit too early, but I'm finally getting close to operating 30 breachers. I have two tournaments and two other games planned for November where I will field 3 maxed out units. I will also have Pathfinders in great numbers and it will be interesting to see who's getting shot first haha.


Discussions like this are not just for the OP and posters, but for the unseen audience as well. It's good to toss out ideas and let people throw in experience and theorycrafting to see what could work. It inspires and opens up people to knew ideas.

I have had limited experience with breachers in 8th. I have only used them in devilfish with an ethereal or darkstrider and in only like two games. The first thing to note about these guys is that it is going to take some time for your to get comfortable using them and using them effectively.

Breachers on foot I have not tried but a few pros and cons jump out at me.

This is actually a unit that can throw down decent fire power if it is close enough. This makes it a cheap and useful unit for covering flanks and protecting vulnerable units from deepstrike attacks.

It can be decently durable too with the Guardian Drone, although the drone can always just be shot at separately.

It has the possibility of covering multiple roles. By that I mean you could use it for bubble wrap with a kick, or for objective grabbing on foot. One thing to keep in mind for going out on foot is that firewarriors are still weak. Yes, your opponent may not spend any shots on them when they are far away, but breachers that are close enough for lasguns (for example) are a good target and will die quickly to such shooting.

So it seems like a mixed bag overall. I think it would not be a bad idea to have at least one breacher team in a list because of their versatility and firepower.

For an all breacher list though, I'm not sold yet.
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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#47 » Oct 28 2017 12:38

Ah yea, I guess I should have been more clear. The pros and cons was just their usage in general. What they did well, what they could be used for, what you could expect from them.

When compared to strikes, the only thing strikes really have over breachers is range, survivability, and "uptime". Range in the fact that strikes get 30in weapons and an option for a missile pod or SMS. With range gives you survivability because you're further from the enemy and can often "out range" small arms fire that you'll likely see the closer you get to your enemy (lasguns, bolters, etc). Which all equals to more "uptime" meaning you get to do more with those strikes in comparison to breachers because, well, they're still on the board.

The breachers have their place, but I'm not so sure that an entire troop section should be just breachers. I think a mixture would likely be best in general.

That depends on your meta though. If you find that your opponents get in your face more often than not, field breachers primarily. If you're playstyle is to leave your half of the board and rush up the middle with all your troops, field breachers. If you're looking for a take all comers list, I'd do a mixture of the two.

As a side note, have you considered using shield lines for your breachers? It's 70pts extra, but you get a sturdy platform that can offer you some shooting shenanigans if you use it right.
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#48 » Oct 30 2017 03:33

shasocastris wrote: Have you ever considered a brigade? You troops and FA slots can be taken up by FW and drones, cheap and play in a manner which you seem to enjoy.


Yeah, I have tried a brigade 2 - 3 times, and if I remember correctly, lost all games with it. It's not the Troop or FA or Elites, it's the damned Heavy Support. I consider the R'varna the only good heavy support options we currently have, but even that is a heavy points commitment, requires support and protection, and I still have two slots to fill!

But yes, I will try one or two more games with a Brigade with a mix of Breachers and Carbine teams. We play with the rule that finishing deploying first only gives you +1 to roll, not automatic first turn, so I'm no longer that concerned with putting 6 min squads on the table without any transports :) But if I'm not satisfied with those play-tests, I'm not touching a brigade until the codex drops.

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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#49 » Oct 30 2017 06:17

GND wrote:
shasocastris wrote: Have you ever considered a brigade? You troops and FA slots can be taken up by FW and drones, cheap and play in a manner which you seem to enjoy.


Yeah, I have tried a brigade 2 - 3 times, and if I remember correctly, lost all games with it. It's not the Troop or FA or Elites, it's the damned Heavy Support. I consider the R'varna the only good heavy support options we currently have, but even that is a heavy points commitment, requires support and protection, and I still have two slots to fill!

But yes, I will try one or two more games with a Brigade with a mix of Breachers and Carbine teams. We play with the rule that finishing deploying first only gives you +1 to roll, not automatic first turn, so I'm no longer that concerned with putting 6 min squads on the table without any transports :) But if I'm not satisfied with those play-tests, I'm not touching a brigade until the codex drops.

Remember, with a brigade you're blunting your army by adding so many required units, and what do you gain? Just more CP to spend on vanilla stratagems. Until we get our own Codex stratagems the brigade won't be worth it I think.

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Panzer
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#50 » Oct 30 2017 06:49

Arka0415 wrote:
GND wrote:
shasocastris wrote: Have you ever considered a brigade? You troops and FA slots can be taken up by FW and drones, cheap and play in a manner which you seem to enjoy.


Yeah, I have tried a brigade 2 - 3 times, and if I remember correctly, lost all games with it. It's not the Troop or FA or Elites, it's the damned Heavy Support. I consider the R'varna the only good heavy support options we currently have, but even that is a heavy points commitment, requires support and protection, and I still have two slots to fill!

But yes, I will try one or two more games with a Brigade with a mix of Breachers and Carbine teams. We play with the rule that finishing deploying first only gives you +1 to roll, not automatic first turn, so I'm no longer that concerned with putting 6 min squads on the table without any transports :) But if I'm not satisfied with those play-tests, I'm not touching a brigade until the codex drops.

Remember, with a brigade you're blunting your army by adding so many required units, and what do you gain? Just more CP to spend on vanilla stratagems. Until we get our own Codex stratagems the brigade won't be worth it I think.

I agree with this. Brigade adds too many subpar units with the Heavy Support requirement (and arguably too many Troop as well) for little gain. I often even have games that end with me having not spend all my CP without using a Brigade detachment, just because a re-roll isn't always needed, auto-pass on moral is pointless with MSU and countercharge is a joke as T'au.

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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#51 » Oct 30 2017 07:03

Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
GND wrote:
Yeah, I have tried a brigade 2 - 3 times, and if I remember correctly, lost all games with it. It's not the Troop or FA or Elites, it's the damned Heavy Support. I consider the R'varna the only good heavy support options we currently have, but even that is a heavy points commitment, requires support and protection, and I still have two slots to fill!

But yes, I will try one or two more games with a Brigade with a mix of Breachers and Carbine teams. We play with the rule that finishing deploying first only gives you +1 to roll, not automatic first turn, so I'm no longer that concerned with putting 6 min squads on the table without any transports :) But if I'm not satisfied with those play-tests, I'm not touching a brigade until the codex drops.

Remember, with a brigade you're blunting your army by adding so many required units, and what do you gain? Just more CP to spend on vanilla stratagems. Until we get our own Codex stratagems the brigade won't be worth it I think.

I agree with this. Brigade adds too many subpar units with the Heavy Support requirement (and arguably too many Troop as well) for little gain. I often even have games that end with me having not spend all my CP without using a Brigade detachment, just because a re-roll isn't always needed, auto-pass on moral is pointless with MSU and countercharge is a joke as T'au.


Well I regularly burn through 6 - 7 command points by the end of turn 3. And it's really only the Heavy Support slots that are a problem. The extra 120 points for 3 extra troops is not a deal breaker.

And yes, I am very much aware I am "blunting" my army in return for CP. I kinda implied that in my post, and that is the reason I only field it rarely. I am still, however, willing to give it a try and maybe make it work. There is no need to come and remind a tactic I aim to play-test is potentially suboptimal.

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Arka0415
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#52 » Oct 30 2017 07:32

GND wrote:And yes, I am very much aware I am "blunting" my army in return for CP. I kinda implied that in my post, and that is the reason I only field it rarely. I am still, however, willing to give it a try and maybe make it work. There is no need to come and remind a tactic I aim to play-test is potentially suboptimal.

Sorry about that. What I was getting at, though, is the fact that we might get loads of great stratagems in our Codex. If that's the case, it might really be okay (even advisable) to take less-than-optimal units and maximize your use of some fantastic stratagems.

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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#53 » Nov 09 2017 04:40

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE my Breachers! I use them to way more effect than Strike Teams, every game, all the time.

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