I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Haechi
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I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#1 » Sep 28 2017 01:34

Hello guys,

I'm relatively new to this forum but I've been a very active in the tournament scene since 8th came out, and I'm here today to share with you my take on Breachers as a totale replacement for Strike Teams.

So, the situation is as follows : I want more command points, which you can mostly find in detachement with troops, and many tournaments force you to choose one of the detachement with troops as a requirement. In both case, we have to pay a "tax" of troops.

I've tried it with Strike teams, and two things happened : First, my Strike Teams do very little damage. Yes I could boost them with a Cadre Fireblade and/or drones, but all in all, they aren't very punchy. Second, and mostly because of the first point, nobody shoots at my Strike Teams. My opponents aren't stupid, they target my Pathfinders, my drones, my Vespids, my everything else. So, with Strike Teams, I have a tax that doesn't deal much damage, and that doesn't tank any of it.

Then comes the Breachers, and by saying that, you already guessed where I'm going with this.

Playing squads of Breachers as the troop tax for my detachement changes the dynamic of my list. To work the way I want them to, they have to be on foot. It's very important. Plus the Devilfish is way too expensive for what it brings to the table. So what do Breachers do exactly?
First of all, they deal damage. Yes, at very close range, but not only. At 15", you still have two bolter shot per model. Not ideal, but not garbage. Then of course, we all know how much they can dish out at closer ranges.
But, and for seconds, and most important of all, they tank. Because of my first point, and unlike Strike Teams, because of the damage Breachers can do, my opponents do target them. Suddenly, and for the same exact cost as Strike Teams, my troop tax is being focused down. It spares my Pathfinders, and everything else... all for the same cost of 8 points.
And what if they don't? Well, if your opponent doesn't focuses down your 8 points per model troop choice... You make him pay with your S6 PA-2 shots.

And this is why I decided to build my lists full of Breachers on foot, to walk valiantly into the fray, get shot in the face (yay), or blast the enemy to ashes (yay too).

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Bel'kro
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#2 » Sep 28 2017 02:13

So your experience has taught you that by removing the devilfish, not only does it give us access to more guns, but it actually takes the heat off our other units, simply because the breachers themselves are a potent threat?

In that case, how many breachers are too many? If we start treating them like a decoy unit, then obviously we don't want to invest too much into them, but they still need to be a large enough threat to warrant the extra attention.
Legend says his name contained over 20 apostrophes!

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Haechi
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#3 » Sep 28 2017 02:30

Bel'kro wrote:In that case, how many breachers are too many? If we start treating them like a decoy unit, then obviously we don't want to invest too much into them, but they still need to be a large enough threat to warrant the extra attention.


Well, I've only tested it twice so far and with proxies. I just ordered 3 boxes of Fire Warriors to build and try 3 full squads of 10 Breachers in a Battalion Detachment for an upcoming tournament. I need further testing to validate (or not) this idea, but it worked as intended so far.

30 Breachers is 240 points, which isn't nothing, for sure. But considering it for a tax unit to get the Battalion and if everything I said in my original post works out, then it's worth it.

Of course I'm not saying to take 30 Breachers in everygame. If a tournament allows it, I'd rather not have any troops considering our choices (and I already have my Kroot Hounds so no need for Kroot Carnivores). But in a case where it's mandatory, I believe fielding 30 Breachers on foot might do some tremendous work.

I'll be back with the results of this experiment soon =]

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Glarblar
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#4 » Sep 28 2017 02:39

In a drone heavy meta its not a bad idea, you get your infantry guns on your drones and your anti elite guns on your breachers

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 3062

Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#5 » Sep 28 2017 02:51

Interesting idea but I really cringe at the thought of taking a unit of Firewarrior purposely without transport just for them to die. We are not the Imperium ffs! :D

Wedrujacy
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Posts: 44

Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#6 » Sep 28 2017 03:44

Panzer wrote:Interesting idea but I really cringe at the thought of taking a unit of Firewarrior purposely without transport just for them to die. We are not the Imperium ffs! :D

Are you sure... just remind yourself what has been done by Etherals at Damocles Gulf when they left their people (including Farsigh). :dead:

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#7 » Sep 28 2017 10:22

Wedrujacy wrote:
Panzer wrote:Interesting idea but I really cringe at the thought of taking a unit of Firewarrior purposely without transport just for them to die. We are not the Imperium ffs! :D

Are you sure... just remind yourself what has been done by Etherals at Damocles Gulf when they left their people (including Farsigh). :dead:

Yes I am sure.

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Shas'O Bentu'nan
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#8 » Sep 29 2017 12:56

Consider, a breacher is only SLIGHTLY more expensive than a ork boy... 2 squads of 10 breachers with a guardian drone in each for about the same points as 30 boyz. You can totally zerg breachers!
Commander wiseblade

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#9 » Sep 29 2017 03:33

Shas'O Bentu'nan wrote:Consider, a breacher is only SLIGHTLY more expensive than a ork boy... 2 squads of 10 breachers with a guardian drone in each for about the same points as 30 boyz. You can totally zerg breachers!

Except, no you can't really. Orks are cheap (Breachers cost 33% more), durable, have fantastic morale and great ways to get buffs, and hit like a ton of bricks. In a fight between 22 Breachers and 30 Ork Boyz, the Boyz would clean up. Also, Tau have no way to really protect the Breachers while Orks have Meks and Weirdboyz.

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Shas'O Bentu'nan
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#10 » Sep 29 2017 09:28

We have ethereals and guardian drones that give mek and painboy bonuses for cheaper. 26 breachers and guardian drones plus ethereal for less points than 30 boys with mek and painboy.

Breachers can put the hurt on heavy targets a lot better than boys can. We are down only one toughness but have a better save before invulnerable. Our ethereal gives far more versitile bonuses too.

So yeah, i think you could ork the *BAD WORD DELETED!* out of firewarriors.
Commander wiseblade

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#11 » Sep 29 2017 09:54

That one toughness is pretty important though. It causes S6 and S7 weapons to wound on 2+ instead of 3+.

I mean, go ahead and try it. It won't work nearly as good as you may think it does.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#12 » Sep 29 2017 06:02

I'm currently painting my first ground troops and I'm almost finished. It is a set of breachers, so I am curious on your results. I haven't played too many games but the games I have played, I wasn't impressed by Strikers. Breachers so far have done more work for me but they were in the fish . I was considering attempting to try something similar. For best results with what you're trying to do, I recommend taking a darkstrider for his buff. He will make the breachers a scarier unit when shooting.
Last edited by Lostroninsoul on Sep 30 2017 10:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Arka0415
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#13 » Sep 30 2017 11:23

(Sorry for the negative post here. From a competitive standpoint, I just don't think this is a good idea.)

Shas'O Bentu'nan wrote:We have ethereals and guardian drones that give mek and painboy bonuses for cheaper. 26 breachers and guardian drones plus ethereal for less points than 30 boys with mek and painboy.

Breachers can put the hurt on heavy targets a lot better than boys can. We are down only one toughness but have a better save before invulnerable. Our ethereal gives far more versitile bonuses too.


We get better armor than the Orks, but we also have worse Toughness. Armor can be mitigated, Toughness can't be. It takes 36 Lasgun shots to kill 5 Ork Boyz (36s > 18h > 6w > 5k). It takes 40 Lasgun shots to kill 5 Breachers (40s > 20h > 10w > 5k). That's barely a difference at all. Breachers cost more than Orks; it takes 176 Lasgun shots to kill 22 Breachers (176 points-worth), whereas it takes 216 Lasgun shots to kill 30 Orks (180 points-worth). If a squad of 30 Orks lost 5 models they would take no additional casualties. If a squad of 10 Breachers lost 5 models they would have a decent chance of losing 1 or 2 more. Orks are more durable.

Orks get 1 Pistol shot and 3 close-combat attacks each, they can re-roll charge range, and the Nob has much-improved stats. In a footslogging match, the Orks will get their charge off before the Breachers get to fire with their close-range profile. Even if the Breachers do get to shoot that amazing profile, 22 Breachers will kill about 14 Boyz, leaving 16 Boyz left to crush those Breachers under the weight of 16 Pistol attacks (1-2 dead Breachers) and 49 close-combat attacks (11-12 dead Breachers).

Also, a few more things:

- Guardian Drones don't count. A few Big Shootas can take one out easily.
- Orks are better at killing heavy targets. 30 Ork Boyz with 121 attacks will fare better against, say, a Dreadnought. 121 Ork attacks will deal about 8-9 wounds to a Dreadnought. 44 Breacher shots will deal 4-5 wounds... assuming they're at 5" range.
- Orks get better buffs. Meks are characters, Painboys are characters, Green Tide is amazing, the Warboss buff is good, and Ghazkull's buff is very usable too.
- Finally, yes, the Ethereal buff is great! It's nice we get the Ethereal as a kind of "medic" character.

At the end of the day, you just cannot assume that Breachers will be operating within that golden 5" range every time. Breachers are fun units, and great when mechanized, but there's no reason to compare them to Orks. They serve very different roles. Breachers offer less offensive power, less durability, less morale, and less synergy, and they cost more.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#14 » Sep 30 2017 03:18

Sometimes I wish I could "like" your posts, Arka. Very good indepths comparison without going too much into detail of army building (which would only favour Ork Boyz even more btw).

I mean it's not a bad Idea to make a unit that has barely any damage output on its own a higher priority target due its potential damage output, however it's not something to build your army on and any more experienced player would ignore them unless they are really close and then simply wipe them because T3 W1 Sv4+/5++ is barely more than nothing. If an enemy struggles destroying such a unit you have basically already won because his list wouldn't be a threat to anything anyway.
Last edited by Panzer on Oct 01 2017 06:24, edited 1 time in total.

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thesnailmaster
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#15 » Sep 30 2017 03:59

Panzer wrote:Sometimes I wish I could "like" your posts, Arka. Very good indepths comparison without going too much into detail of army building (which would only favour Ork Boyz even more btw).




I think this all the time, so many great points get made that don't need reply's too.

In my Breacher experience they do indeed just die, the Guardian drone isn't even required this edition that much as the things that used to just kill them gives them a 5+ save now (the old AP 4 weapons) and falls in the trap that most support drones do and give away easy kills in KP games / Maelstrom missions.

My last game I just lost most of the squad to splinter weapons and the rest auto popped (only a bonding knife roll would save them), this was with an Ethereal as well.

Maybe when we get out own Strats will bring them out again to justify getting extra CP's, in tournaments that require a battalion, bringing 3*5 strike teams is probably a better option.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#16 » Sep 30 2017 10:27

Maybe when we get out own Strats will bring them out again to justify getting extra CP's, in tournaments that require a battalion, bringing 3*5 strike teams is probably a better option.

As a fan of this idea of trying breachers out. I think this way is probably the most effective way to do so. It kind of goes along with OP's mission statement:
And this is why I decided to build my lists full of Breachers on foot, to walk valiantly into the fray, get shot in the face (yay), or blast the enemy to ashes (yay too).

They are small enough for your opponent to ignore with out losing out on effectiveness for points. If they do focus on them then your really ahead. It also depends on what your list is made of, and how you play your units. What was your full list you wanted to pair them with?

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Haechi
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#17 » Oct 01 2017 11:03

I depends on the tournament and the restrictions that goes with it. The case that made me want to try that is an upcoming team tournament that forbids any entries to be taken more than once, except for troop choices, and with a mandatory choice of Detachment between Battalion and Brigade.

This is my current list, in which I wish I took only Breachers instead of Strike Teams, as they have done jack *BAD WORD DELETED!* in all my test games. Easy example, yesterday I had a try out against a Space Marine player. In the same shooting phase, 28 shots of Strike Teams Killed one Intercessor in cover, while 12 shots of Breachers, and with only 6 of them at 5", I killed two terminators.

To me the choice is getting more and more obvious between the two.

Haechi – T’AU <T’au Sept> EXPEDITION FORCE – 2000
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Equipe : GDHell is coming !
+ Joueur x : Rafael “Haechi” Riffiod
+ Faction(s) : T’au Empire, <Sept T’au>
+ Total points de commandement : 6
+ Total points d'armée : 2000 pts
+ Total points de renforts : 0 pts
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Battalion Detachment –
QG –
QG 1 : Commander Shadowsun (167) – 2 Fusion Blasters (0), 2 MV52 Shield Drones (2x11), [187] – General.
QG 2 : Ethereal (45) with Honour Blade (0), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [61]
QG 3 : Commander (76) avec 4 Fusion Blasters (4x21), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [176]
ELITE –
Elite 1 : XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit (82) – Fusion Collider (44), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), Target Lock (12), Multi-Tracker (10), 2 MV5 Stealth Drones (2x10) [210]
Elite 2 : XV25 Stealth Battlesuits : 5 Stealth Shas’ui et 1 Stealth Shas’vre (6x20), avec 4 Burst Cannon (4x10), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), 6 Multi-Trackers (6x2), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [230]
Elite 3 : XV104 Riptide Battlesuit (209) – Heavy Burst Cannon (55), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), Target Lock (12), Stimulant Injectors (5) [323]
TROUPES –
Troupe 1 : Strike Team : 7x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (8x8) avec 8 Pulse Rifles (0), 8 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0), 1 Markerlight (3), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [83]
Troupe 2 : Strike Team : 7x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (8x8) avec 8 Pulse Rifles (0), 8 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0), 1 Markerlight (3), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [83]
Troupe 3 : Breacher Team : 5x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (6x8) avec 6 Pulse Blaster (0), 6 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0) [48]
ATTAQUE RAPIDE –
Attaque Rapide 1 : Pathfinder Team : 9x Pathfinders et 1 Pathfinder Shas’ui (10x5) avec 10 Markerlights (10x3), 10 Pulse Carbines (0), 10 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0) [80]
Attaque Rapide 2 : Kroot Hounds : 8x Hounds (8x4) [32]
Attaque Rapide 3 : Vespid Stingwings : 8x Vespid Stingwings et 1 Strain Leader (9x15) avec 9 Neutron Blasters (0) [135]
HEAVY SUPPORT –
HEAVY SUPPORT 1 : XV88 Broadside Battlesuit : 2 Broadsides (2x80), avec 2 Heavy Rail Rifles (2x63), 4 Plasma Rifles (4x11), 2 Velocity Trackers (2x2), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [350]

TOTAL - 2000

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Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 95

Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#18 » Oct 02 2017 08:24

If possible I would split your list into two detachments. One being an outrider Detachment and one being a battalion detachment for an extra CP point. If this not permissible you can probably ask the event host why they are soft Banning fortifications and Lord of wars. Currently I only see one of those unit of breachers in there. But yes I can see those Strikers being breachers and it would probably be decent in a environment loaded with Terrain

PS I finished my breachers yesterday

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