I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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shasocastris
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#37 » Oct 16 2017 11:35

Something to keep in mind is that pulse blasters are assault weapons and so you can advance and still shoot, and with only 3 markerlights negate the -1 to hit penalty. The extra D6" movement is sometimes crucial and at the very least surprising to an opponent who though that he was safe from breacher retaliation.

And as someone who uses 6 squads of five breachers with some regularity, yes, they are amazing. They scare the crap out of opponents without really trying and are admirable at bringing that little (or a lot) extra punch needed to destroy an enemy unit.

Cheers!

Knives
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#38 » Oct 17 2017 12:28

Would this work for 7th edtion?

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shasocastris
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#39 » Oct 17 2017 10:32

Less so. There is no 'advancing' rule in 7th. And the AP in 7th means that the 10" profile is just a pulse carbine and the 5" profile can be negated by cover. Breachers are ok in 7th, but I think they really shine in 8th.

Cheers!

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#40 » Oct 18 2017 04:57

That's awesome I'll look into obtaining more breachers.

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mason8ah
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#41 » Oct 23 2017 08:13

I read pretty much all of this and it has definitely sparked an interest/desire to try breachers out! Especially against MEQ. Or maybe have them hanging back a bit around a priority target that you KNOW is going to have some deep striking going on near it, just to retaliate and obliterate like the Space Marine jump infantry.

I can see them being cut up midfield, but like some have said this isn't a bad thing, it's soaking up fire for other units.

Thanks everyone!
mason8ah

Nothing fancy.

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Haechi
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#42 » Oct 25 2017 01:02

I realize now that I started this topic a bit too early, but I'm finally getting close to operating 30 breachers. I have two tournaments and two other games planned for November where I will field 3 maxed out units. I will also have Pathfinders in great numbers and it will be interesting to see who's getting shot first haha.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#43 » Oct 25 2017 01:37

Nonsense, discussing tactics is always good, and there is no time like the present. You get feedback and knowledge from the community and vice versa. More importantly, by starting this topic the community gets feedback from itself. This makes us all commutatively better players, and faster at learning.

I am considering my Kroot for my primary troop choice. There are cheap for bulk, fast, and I happened to own 50 (Lord have mercy on my soul when I start painting them). Second troop choice I like are breachers. Talking about them here made me like them so much that I try to fit my breacher fish package in every list I think up. :) Please continue sharing your expierences with them. I have an event 11/4.

Core list
6 xv8 crisis suits 11-12 CIBs, 6ats...maybe a DC
10 breachers
Darkstrider
Devilfish
Stormsurge (pulseblaster,ats,shield,stim)
commander 3cib ,ats
10 pathfinders

As the core of my 1500 point list

The next purchase (probably late next month) will be another pathfinder team.

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GND
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#44 » Oct 26 2017 03:42

I have tried Breachers on foot in a couple of games (vs Space Marines) now. Honestly, I was rather skeptical it would work as desired, but I saw your posts both here and on Dakka and decided I should give it a try. I have mixed feelings about the tactic, but I think it can be refined.

Cons:
    - I didn't get the desired effect of the Breachers being focused down. Anti infantry firepower was still aimed primarily on Drones and Pathfinders. And it's not like my opponents don't know what Breachers are - I run a Fish full of Breachers both in 8th and 7th, and that one always gets a lot of attention (in the form of lascannons, missiles, etc.)
    - The Breachers are often out of range, or in range with their inferior weapons profiles) even to units that deepstrike into my deployment zone. Their damage output is insignificant.

Pros:
    - Cheap troops that fill out your side of the table, hold objectives and provide distraction for enemy units that appear on your table half during the game (but you can get all this elsewhere too)
    - Being fast thanks to Advance + Assault Weapons

Being constantly out range forced me to Advance them all the time and I discovered I like this form if backfield mobility very much. Rolling a 5 or 6 on advance and still hit on 5+ (sometimes 4+ 'cus of markerlights) feels good and proved useful.

So I replaced my Breachers with Strike Teams with Pulse Carbines last game and was rather pleased with the results (and no rifles won't work, I advance the units almost every turn). They are more consistent with their damage output. Those 3" of extra range help, also not being S4 at 15"-10". They lack a bit of punch the Breachers provide at >5". So why not field both and get the best of both worlds?

In my next couple of game I'll test out a mix of Carbine Strike Teams and Breachers. Probable a mix of 2 - 2 or 2 - 1 or 3 - 3. The Strike teams being more in the back, next to my table edge and Breachers up front, next to possible deepstrike zones.

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Panzer
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#45 » Oct 26 2017 04:43

GND wrote:I have tried Breachers on foot in a couple of games (vs Space Marines) now. Honestly, I was rather skeptical it would work as desired, but I saw your posts both here and on Dakka and decided I should give it a try. I have mixed feelings about the tactic, but I think it can be refined.

Cons:
    - I didn't get the desired effect of the Breachers being focused down. Anti infantry firepower was still aimed primarily on Drones and Pathfinders. And it's not like my opponents don't know what Breachers are - I run a Fish full of Breachers both in 8th and 7th, and that one always gets a lot of attention (in the form of lascannons, missiles, etc.)
    - The Breachers are often out of range, or in range with their inferior weapons profiles) even to units that deepstrike into my deployment zone. Their damage output is insignificant.

Pros:
    - Cheap troops that fill out your side of the table, hold objectives and provide distraction for enemy units that appear on your table half during the game (but you can get all this elsewhere too)
    - Being fast thanks to Advance + Assault Weapons

Being constantly out range forced me to Advance them all the time and I discovered I like this form if backfield mobility very much. Rolling a 5 or 6 on advance and still hit on 5+ (sometimes 4+ 'cus of markerlights) feels good and proved useful.

So I replaced my Breachers with Strike Teams with Pulse Carbines last game and was rather pleased with the results (and no rifles won't work, I advance the units almost every turn). They are more consistent with their damage output. Those 3" of extra range help, also not being S4 at 15"-10". They lack a bit of punch the Breachers provide at >5". So why not field both and get the best of both worlds?

In my next couple of game I'll test out a mix of Carbine Strike Teams and Breachers. Probable a mix of 2 - 2 or 2 - 1 or 3 - 3. The Strike teams being more in the back, next to my table edge and Breachers up front, next to possible deepstrike zones.

So basically as I predicted.

To the Carbines vs Rifles for backfield protection. I don't see it.
Sure two shots at -1 to-hit is better than one shot at BS4+, however even if you advance 6" you still have 6" shorter threat range than with Rifles and in case there's nothing to do in your backfield Rifles could still harass the enemy lines while you would have to move towards the enemey lines (which would be fatal if your opponents decides for a turn 3 drop in your backfield or has a fast unit to outmanoeuvre your Carbines).

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GND
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#46 » Oct 26 2017 05:27

My point that I almost always want to advance the backfield Strike Teams and fully utilize their ~9.5" movement and Rifles just don't get any shots then. The units start on the table spread out to maximum coherency maximizing no-deepstrike-zone coverage, which results them being in poor firing positions with little to no cover. After enemy units land, they want redeploy to better positions/capture objectives/physically hinder the movement of non-flying units or encircle overly aggressive transports to prevent disembarkation. The positioning game strikes me as more important than 5 Pulse shots I'm not taking because I have Carbines instead of Rifles.

And past turn 3 I'm usually not in my deployment zone (everything is either dead or moved up), so sure deepstrike there :D

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Panzer
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#47 » Oct 26 2017 06:00

GND wrote:My point that I almost always want to advance the backfield Strike Teams and fully utilize their ~9.5" movement and Rifles just don't get any shots then.

Yeah and my point is that you ususally don't even need to advance with Rifles to do the same job while not being locked into doing only that one job in case there's no need for it. ;)

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Arka0415
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#48 » Oct 26 2017 06:42

Panzer wrote:
GND wrote:My point that I almost always want to advance the backfield Strike Teams and fully utilize their ~9.5" movement and Rifles just don't get any shots then.

Yeah and my point is that you ususally don't even need to advance with Rifles to do the same job while not being locked into doing only that one job in case there's no need for it. ;)

My view is that 1 shot at BS4+ is good, 2 shots at BS5+ is better (hello Gun Drones), and 2 shots at BS4+ is best. Instead of dashing around with Pulse Carbines, move slowly but efficiently with your Pulse Rifles and you should be in business. Look at it this way- if, for any reason, you're inflicting -1 to hit on yourself, there must be a very, very good reason.

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GND
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#49 » Oct 26 2017 08:47

But I want to move. I need to move. To job of min squads of Strikes isn't to shoot. Their shooting is negligible. Did you even read what I said?

They take up space, hold objectives (Mealstorm of War style), inhibit enemy movement. Fast movement is important for those jobs. Therefore advancing. Therefore Assault weapons. If they land a couple of shots that's a nice bonus.

I'm not fielding a static gunline of 15 Firewariors here, but 120 points of cannon fodder and utility units.

Arka0415 wrote:Look at it this way- if, for any reason, you're inflicting -1 to hit on yourself, there must be a very, very good reason.


Yes there is.

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Panzer
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#50 » Oct 26 2017 08:51

Guess I just don't see your use of them that way. I never had a situation where I would have used any of my units like that. Anyway, for that use I'd just take Drones or Kroot Hounds then.

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GND
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#51 » Oct 26 2017 09:04

Those two are not troops, have poor leadership, lack Photon grenades and in the case of hounds, cannot shoot (I am also hitting a problem of not owning enough drones, but that's my personal issue).

I was skeptical too. Try it in a couple of games.

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Panzer
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#52 » Oct 26 2017 09:16

GND wrote:Those two are not troops, have poor leadership, lack Photon grenades and in the case of hounds, cannot shoot (I am also hitting a problem of not owning enough drones, but that's my personal issue).

I was skeptical too. Try it in a couple of games.

That was just thrown in anyway. I don't have to try it because I never came in any situation where I have to move like that in my backfield in any of my games. Sorry to disappoint.

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shasocastris
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#53 » Oct 26 2017 10:14

GND wrote:They take up space, hold objectives (Mealstorm of War style), inhibit enemy movement. Fast movement is important for those jobs. Therefore advancing. Therefore Assault weapons. If they land a couple of shots that's a nice bonus.


These are all valid points. Not everything in our army has to be dedicated to killing things, and in Maelstrom missions, they probably shouldn't be. The objectives are how one wins the game. As someone who plays these missions regularly, I fully appreciate how awesome advancing and firing assault weapons are (although it tends to be with commanders). And since there are six objectives in a Maelstrom mission, it's not that absurd to consider that an advancing team of fire warriors can get from one objective to another in a single turn.

I also think it's important to not underestimate the third markerlight level. The ability to make our army effectively faster for a turn can be very off-putting to even experienced enemies.

The questions of leadership are also important. While gun drones are tougher (although Fire Warriors get cover), they suffer morale after losing 1 model. Fire Warriors suffer after 3. This type of survivability, especially in objective games, matters.

So I don't think anyone is arguing that drones don't have more raw firepower, but rather that carbine strike teams have a utility that hasn't been fully explored and is deserving of our attention.

To GND, I have two questions: Do you ever give you strike/breacher teams a markerlight? I've done this with limited success just to have extra shots scattered around. And do you have an army list you could share? I'm curious now.

Cheers!

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GND
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Re: I'm replacing all my strike teams with breachers... on foot!

Post#54 » Oct 27 2017 03:22

shasocastris wrote:And since there are six objectives in a Maelstrom mission, it's not that absurd to consider that an advancing team of fire warriors can get from one objective to another in a single turn.


That has happened to me multiple times actually.

shasocastris wrote:I also think it's important to not underestimate the third markerlight level. The ability to make our army effectively faster for a turn can be very off-putting to even experienced enemies.


Oh yes this is absolutely true. I'm growing fond of the 3-markelight-bonus. Not that I'm saying you should use markerlights to specifically support 5-man squads of Fire Wariors, but if you're already marking a target that needs to die (i.e. 5 lights) they can join in while being highly mobile. And if you get 1 markelight just for the basic bonus, sometimes it's worth a consideration to risk trying to get to three.

shasocastris wrote:So I don't think anyone is arguing that drones don't have more raw firepower, but rather that carbine strike teams have a utility that hasn't been fully explored and is deserving of our attention.


Aptly put.

shasocastris wrote:Do you ever give you strike/breacher teams a markerlight? I've done this with limited success just to have extra shots scattered around.

No I haven't tried that yet. I am put of by the inability to fire both the markerlight and a normal weapon and also the coin toss aspect of a single 4+ shot. When it comes to BS4+ lights (Pathfinders, Drones) I always fire 2 - 3 at the same time for that higher statistical chance of landing at least one hit. But I'll try a cascading markerlight approach in 8th someday and spread out the lights in squads. See what that does. Thou, that'll probably be a more static list than what I described here.

shasocastris wrote:And do you have an army list you could share? I'm curious now.


I don't really have a list I could share per se, as I'm still very much testing stuff in 8th (it goes slow with only 1 game/week) and my army composition varies wildly between games. But I'll give you a quick run down of some units I used with Breachers/Carbine Teams on foot and what role they played in the last 5 games I tried them.

- the Breacher/Strike Teams are always min squads
- 3 - 4 units to unlock a Battalion
- in lists with a static gunline (Hammerheads, Rvarna, Riptide, Broadsides and/or Pathfinders) the Fire Wariors are used less to take up space in my deployment zone (the gunline it self does that) and more to bubble wrap or advance forward into the midfield and do their job there.
- in more mobile lists (XV8s, XV9s, Stealth Teams, Ghostkeel, Piranhas) they protect the small parts of the army that starts in my deployment zone (Pathfinders mostly) and cover as much ground to reduce deepstrike opportunities (especially around objectives). Later in the game the less-dead squads advance to hold objective mid-table and sprinkle enemy units with shots. Squads that suffered heavier casualties (single models mostly) stay back and hide out of LoS near objectives.
- together with Stealth Teams and Coldstars they score the majority of my secure/defend objective cards
- even on foot, they easily catch up to elements of your army that deploy forward, providing some additional fire and extra overwatch shots
- in general they can support a wide variety of units and don't need much support in return, except the occasional markerlight. If you are already running an Ethereal I suggest paying the extra points for Aun'Va for the 6+ FNP and re-rolling dice for advance.

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