Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Arka0415
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Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#1 » Oct 10 2017 10:19

So, I've been thinking more about my own list recently (link in my signature) and I'm struggling to justify the 8xCIB+Drone Controller build on XV8s, as compared with the 2xCIB+1xATS build which could be used instead. I know the forum (and myself) largely sided with the 8xCIB build a month or two ago, but I'd like to revisit it.

Here are some simple "mathhammer"-style numbers:

Shooting at T4/W1/Sv4+ (1 Markerlight hit)
1. 8x CIB, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323) - 10.889 wounds (29.7pts/w)
2. 6x CIB, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306) - 8.944 wounds (34.2pts/w)
3. 9x CIB; 6x Gun Drones (336) - 10.111 wounds (33.2pts/w)

Shooting at T4/W1/Sv3+ (1 Markerlight hit)
1. 8x CIB, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323) - 7.778 wounds (41.5pts/w)
2. 6x CIB, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306) - 6.741 wounds (45.4pts/w)
3. 9x CIB; 6x Gun Drones (336) - 7.324 wounds (45.9pts/w)

Shooting at T4/W1/Sv2+ (1 Markerlight hit)
1. 8x CIB, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323) - 4.667 wounds (69.2pts/w)
2. 6x CIB, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (306) - 4.537 wounds (67.4pts/w)
3. 9x CIB; 6x Gun Drones (336) - 4.537 wounds (74.1pts/w)

From these numbers, it's pretty clear that the 9xCIB build is costly and inefficient in most cases. It's also clear that the break-even point between the CIB+DC and CIB+ATS builds is between Sv3+ and Sv2+. However, if we remove the damage caused by the Drones, we find the following new results:

Shooting at T4/W1/Sv3+ (1 Markerlight hit)
1. 8x CIB, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (275) - 4.667 wounds (58.9pts/w)
2. 6x CIB, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (258) - 4.667 wounds (55.3pts/w)

Shooting at T4/W1/Sv2+ (1 Markerlight hit)
1. 8x CIB, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (275) - 3.111 wounds (88.4pts/w)
2. 6x CIB, 3x ATS; 6x Gun Drones (258) - 3.500 wounds (73.7pts/w)

Of course, taking a Drone Controller without Drones is pointless, but this represents the state of affairs after the Drones have been destroyed. The CIB+ATS build is superior in cost, damage, and points efficiency.





With these numbers in mind, here's why I'm thinking the CIB+ATS build is a superior option.

1. It's better against its intended target. CIB-carrying XV8s, whether they have ATS or not, are the natural predators of Sv2+/Sv3+ units (perfect against T3/W1/Sv3+, great against T4/W1/Sv3+, great against T4/W2/Sv2+). A build with more CIBs and no ATS will be better against Sv4+ units, but those units aren't your ideal target.

2. It saves you points. The CIB+ATS build is just as good against Sv3+, better against Sv2+, and costs fewer points. It's stronger, cheaper, and more efficient.

3. It's safer for the squad. Since we know that each CIB can cause a Mortal Wound, having fewer CIBs but packing the same firepower is having your cake and eating it too. You get the same punch, but a lower chance of suffering mortal wounds.

4. AP-2 is a great AP value. AP-2 circumvents the popular "ignores AP-1" rule, and also interacts well with common invulnerable saves. 3+/5++, 2+/5++, and 2+/4++ are all very common on elite units. AP-2 is viable against all of these targets, since the armor save is reduced to equal the target's invulnerable save; no points of AP are wasted.

5. The drones are properly expendable. As the squad does not mount a Drone Controller, drones can be expended without as much issue. Essentially, a higher proportion of the points:firepower ratio is in the XV8s, rather than the drones. In addition, this loadout can easily take a mix of Shield and Gun Drones, or even a full suite of six Shield Drones.





I'm definitely interested in hearing all of your thoughts on the issue too. What do you think?

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Panzer
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#2 » Oct 10 2017 10:38

I was never a fan of Crisis with Drone Controller but I never bothered to do the math. Your post just proves my gut feeling to be right. ^^

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Plainshow
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#3 » Oct 10 2017 12:57

Nice analysis! I also think this is a good strategy from a hobby perspective. As most of us know, the CIB is pricy in real money. I have a few kicking around from the old and new Commander kit, and can't bring myself to buy enough to field a full squad of 9. Even the third party versions are no deal, which is a shame. If I had the motivation I would recast some myself, but it's not really my thing. Now I might pull the trigger, try to grab a few more and kit out a Crisis team with 6. I also wouldn't feel bad having only gone in for only doing 6 if they took a hit in Chapter Approved or the Codex (or if a different weapon knocked them from the top spot mathematically).

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Glarblar
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#4 » Oct 10 2017 01:00

I like it. Good thoughts

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Panzer
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#5 » Oct 10 2017 01:28

I was bored and changed the szenario a bit. Since I love Flamer I replaced ATS with a Flamer each.
Shows that if you are in range it's worse against 2+ armor but better against 3+ and 4+ armor in case they are against T4. Against T3 it's about equal against 2+ armor.
Whether it's worth having to get within 8" though is up to everyone else to decide. :D

(Don't be surprised, in germany we use the comma where in english the dot gets used and vice versa when it comes to numbers)
Image
Maybe a quick explanation: I added the numbers for the Drones and Flamer only for the damage, not for the hits and wounds. ^^

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Draco023
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#6 » Oct 10 2017 02:04

I think I'm missing something, within the same categories it looks like the CIB without the ATS is causing more wounds?

Vs toughness 4 it causes 7 wounds on average with both, I've got that but against a 3+ the top unit labeled "CIB+ATS+Drones" is causing 6,74 ( or 6.74 if you're from the states) but it does 7,32 from the unit labeled " CIB+Flamer+drones"? It seems consistent across all the readings. Shouldn't that be reversed?
Last edited by Draco023 on Oct 10 2017 02:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Panzer
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#7 » Oct 10 2017 02:05

Draco023 wrote:I think I'm missing something, within the same categories it looks like the CIB without the ATS is causing more wounds?

Vs toughness 4 it causes 7 wounds on average with both, I've got that but against a 2+ the top unit labeled "CIB+ATS+Drones" is causing 4,54 ( or4.54 if you're from the states) but it does 4,25 from the unit labeled " CIB+Flamer+drones"? It seems consistent across all the readings. Shouldn't that be reversed?


Maybe a quick explanation: I added the numbers for the Drones and Flamer only for the damage, not for the hits and wounds. ^^

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Draco023
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#8 » Oct 10 2017 02:07

Panzer wrote:
Draco023 wrote:I think I'm missing something, within the same categories it looks like the CIB without the ATS is causing more wounds?

Vs toughness 4 it causes 7 wounds on average with both, I've got that but against a 2+ the top unit labeled "CIB+ATS+Drones" is causing 4,54 ( or4.54 if you're from the states) but it does 4,25 from the unit labeled " CIB+Flamer+drones"? It seems consistent across all the readings. Shouldn't that be reversed?


Maybe a quick explanation: I added the numbers for the Drones and Flamer only for the damage, not for the hits and wounds. ^^



Ahh, so the topline is cumulative, with the labeled drones and flamers line being independent. The way the flamer and drones were broken out separately, and that the number of shots was still at 18, confused me. Thanks for clearing it up!

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Panzer
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#9 » Oct 10 2017 02:09

Yeah they're just listed seperatedly so it's easier to add them up via excel and to see how much of the damage actually comes from them. ;)

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Arka0415
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#10 » Oct 10 2017 07:19

So far, conventional wisdom has been to disregard the ATS in favor of extra guns. In the case of the Fusion Blaster or Plasma Rifle, that makes sense. For the CIB, I'm starting to change my mind though. I think 1xCIB+ATS is a waste. 2xCIB+ATS is the break-even point. 3xCIB+ATS is better (but only on Commanders of course).

Saving points for an equally-efficient, cheaper, safer (and easier-to-convert!) loadout seems like a win on all fronts. You sacrifice "potential total damage" for less-expensive equivalent damage, and can spend those saved points somewhere else for extra damage output on another front.

Thoughts?





Plainshow wrote:I also wouldn't feel bad having only gone in for only doing 6 if they took a hit in Chapter Approved or the Codex (or if a different weapon knocked them from the top spot mathematically).

That's been my fear since the day the CIB took the top spot as an XV8 weapon. What if the CIB gets bumped back to mediocrity when the Codex comes out? I'd feel bad for (a) buying so many myself, and (b) for telling so many people so buy them too... oh well :roll:


Panzer wrote:I was bored and changed the szenario a bit. Since I love Flamer I replaced ATS with a Flamer each.
Shows that if you are in range it's worse against 2+ armor but better against 3+ and 4+ armor in case they are against T4.

Have you actually had good experiences with this build? It seems like these two weapons would "pull" the squad in different directions. You want to get up close with the Flamers, but the CIBs are best used for kiting/skirmishing at the edge of that 18" range.

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Panzer
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#11 » Oct 10 2017 11:25

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:I was bored and changed the szenario a bit. Since I love Flamer I replaced ATS with a Flamer each.
Shows that if you are in range it's worse against 2+ armor but better against 3+ and 4+ armor in case they are against T4.

Have you actually had good experiences with this build? It seems like these two weapons would "pull" the squad in different directions. You want to get up close with the Flamers, but the CIBs are best used for kiting/skirmishing at the edge of that 18" range.

It's pure Mathhammer.
I mostly used the full flamer squad and was planning to try a double fusion+flamer build next.
I just think that Crisis with Drones are durable enough to not having to fear melee and in fact with the fly keyword are often bettet off to charge themselves. So I play them rather aggressively instead of trying to dance around at 18“ where you are still in range for 24“ rapid fire weapons after they move.

I used to like double fusion + CIB Crisis in 7th but it's not really viable anymore so I am hesistating to spend time playtesting a build where I need that many CIB before the Codex got released. ^^

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#12 » Oct 11 2017 03:53

Arka0415 wrote:So, I've been thinking more about my own list recently (link in my signature) and I'm struggling to justify the 8xCIB+Drone Controller build on XV8s, as compared with the 2xCIB+1xATS build which could be used instead. I know the forum (and myself) largely sided with the 8xCIB build a month or two ago, but I'd like to revisit it.

snip..

I'm definitely interested in hearing all of your thoughts on the issue too. What do you think?


Well I would be interested in how you deploy your CIB XV8's.
Because if you deepstrike them in with the homing beacon on the Stealthsuits then you can have the drone controller there and thus still have the benefit of it on your drones that come in (if you are mindfull on the placement). That way you have the best of both worlds?
(Or with any other drone controler carrier around when not deepstrikng them but deploying them in your zone)

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Arka0415
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#13 » Oct 11 2017 06:58

StealthKnightSteg wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:So, I've been thinking more about my own list recently (link in my signature) and I'm struggling to justify the 8xCIB+Drone Controller build on XV8s, as compared with the 2xCIB+1xATS build which could be used instead. I know the forum (and myself) largely sided with the 8xCIB build a month or two ago, but I'd like to revisit it.

snip..

I'm definitely interested in hearing all of your thoughts on the issue too. What do you think?


Well I would be interested in how you deploy your CIB XV8's.
Because if you deepstrike them in with the homing beacon on the Stealthsuits then you can have the drone controller there and thus still have the benefit of it on your drones that come in (if you are mindfull on the placement). That way you have the best of both worlds?
(Or with any other drone controler carrier around when not deepstrikng them but deploying them in your zone)


That synergy pleases me to no end, thanks for pointing that out! You could round out the formation with a Fusion Commander + XV8s w/ Gun Drones + Stealthsuits w/ Homing Beacon and Shield Drones. Stealthsuits infiltrate into position. The Commander drops in using the Homing Beacon within 9" of enemy target. The Stealthsuits' Shield Drones have already moved into position where they can guard the Commander (giving him four Shield Drones total). The XV8s drop in behind/beside this group, using their CIBs and Gun Drones to clear out immediate threats while being supported by the Drone Controller. Now you have 6 ATS-assisted CIBs, 12 Pulse Carbines, and 3 Burst Cannons to clear out infantry while the Commander (with his bodyguard of four Shield Drones) alpha strikes the primary target. I like it!

Anyway, I don't use the Homing Beacon because (sadly) my Stealthsuits are badly damaged from a long time in storage and I'm not sure if I want to fix them, or just get new ones. Anyway, I use CIB XV8s to drop in right in front of an enemy advance or next to it, delivering 600 points of Ion firepower to blunt the enemy advance.

Here's my general trick (don't tell the Imperium players!): I have 30 Fire Warriors. People look at that and go "look, a Tau gunline player!" They set up their army to attack my gunline. However, I have 1000 points worth of XV8s and Commanders waiting in spaaaace. Players either (a) ignore the battlesuits and attack the gunline because "scary Tau range advantage" or (b) deploy in a super spread-out formation out of Deep Strike paranoia which lets me do a refuse flank and make most of their army irrelevant. Either way things go well for me.

Stealthsuits, I'm sure, would be a great advantage, I just don't have any usable ones yet.

AlmostMercury
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#14 » Oct 12 2017 11:11

I looked into compare these loadouts:

6x CIB, 3x ATS; 6 Gun Drones
6x CIB, 2x ATS, 1x DC; 6 Gun Drones

The DC one is marginally better (~1-2 pts/w), but only at 6 gun drones so it will have diminishing returns as the drones die. Basically, the increase in BS mitigates the missing AP... at first.

In regards to the stealth DC with 3x ATS on the suits, you could consider bringing Markerlights with the stealth suits as well.

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Arka0415
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#15 » Oct 12 2017 06:39

AlmostMercury wrote:I looked into compare these loadouts:

6x CIB, 3x ATS; 6 Gun Drones
6x CIB, 2x ATS, 1x DC; 6 Gun Drones

The DC one is marginally better (~1-2 pts/w), but only at 6 gun drones so it will have diminishing returns as the drones die. Basically, the increase in BS mitigates the missing AP... at first.

In regards to the stealth DC with 3x ATS on the suits, you could consider bringing Markerlights with the stealth suits as well.

Yup, those were basically the results I got. Would you consider the 2xCIB+1xATS build on your XV8s?

AlmostMercury
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Re: Revisiting the 2xCIB+1xATS Build on XV8s

Post#16 » Oct 13 2017 11:09

I think I would, it's how I ran them before the discussion turned to 3 guns is best. You save 10 points per model which is a great discount to fit in gun drones. I also prefer to have flexible weapons which is why I like CIBs so much. Being able to increase the strength and damage is exactly what I want.

I play my suits aggressively, so 18" is fine with me.

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