Hammerhead loadouts

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
szeszej
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Hammerhead loadouts

Post#1 » Oct 12 2017 04:17

I love the idea for adding 1 Longstrike and 2 Hammerheads to my army - the models are great and pack a lot of firepower. I basically have two questions:

1. Drones vs Burst Cannons - is the only advantage of Burst Cannons the fact that they can shoot at any target in range instead of the closest? Both seem to be packing exactly the same firepower and the drones have some additional abilities and are cheaper, making them far superior in my mind.

2. Ion Cannon vs Railgun - is there any consesus as to which one is better? The railgun is clearly the anti-tank weapon and is cheaper while Ion Cannon is more universal. At the moment I'm leaning more toward Ion Cannon as I already have a Fusion Commander for anti-tank duty

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Arka0415
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#2 » Oct 12 2017 04:36

szeszej wrote:1. Drones vs Burst Cannons - is the only advantage of Burst Cannons the fact that they can shoot at any target in range instead of the closest? Both seem to be packing exactly the same firepower and the drones have some additional abilities and are cheaper, making them far superior in my mind.

Remember, when Gun Drones are attached to a Hammerhead (or any vehicle for that matter) the Hammerhead counts as equipped with those weapons. So, the Gun Drones' targeting rule doesn't apply unless they're detached from the vehicle! The advantage of Burst Cannons is that they don't risk a second kill point/victory point if the vehicle is destroyed... but that's not much of an advantage. Stick with Gun Drones.

szeszej wrote:2. Ion Cannon vs Railgun - is there any consesus as to which one is better? The railgun is clearly the anti-tank weapon and is cheaper while Ion Cannon is more universal

You have it exactly correct! Use the Railgun for damaging big vehicles, and the Ion Cannon for damaging medium vehicles or multi-wound infantry. Just remember that the tank is going to cost more than 170 points with whatever loadout you give it, and the turret-mounted weapons are going to do a few wounds per turn. You aren't going to get the one-shot-one-kill firepower the Hammerhead had in previous editions, sadly. While neither gun is particularly amazing, most people seem to agree that the Railgun is the better choice.

szeszej
Shas
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#3 » Oct 12 2017 08:31

But still if I stick to Fusion Commander for anti-tank, the Ion Cannons should probably be all right?

Another question - Seeker Missiles, worth it or not? I just don't see spending 5 pts on 16% chance of inflicting a single mortal wound per battle (unless I simply have 5 spare pts). A single fire warrior costs just 3 more points and can dish out much more than a 1 wound per battle.

Also Arka0415 - I've taken a look at your list and you seem to be running SMS on your Longstrike. Is it because you intend to keep him as far away from enemies as possible? The SMS looks really bad and only usable with enough markerlights (although you seem to have quite a lot in your list).

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Panzer
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#4 » Oct 12 2017 08:39

szeszej wrote:But still if I stick to Fusion Commander for anti-tank, the Ion Cannons should probably be all right?

Another question - Seeker Missiles, worth it or not? I just don't see spending 5 pts on 16% chance of inflicting a single mortal wound per battle (unless I simply have 5 spare pts). A single fire warrior costs just 3 more points and can dish out much more than a 1 wound per battle.

Also Arka0415 - I've taken a look at your list and you seem to be running SMS on your Longstrike. Is it because you intend to keep him as far away from enemies as possible? The SMS looks really bad and only usable with enough markerlights (although you seem to have quite a lot in your list).

Ion Cannons are fine, though I'd still take a Railgun on Longstrike himself since he causes Mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of 6+ against vehicle and monster.

Seeker Missiles are good on Hammerheads. You don't have a 16% chance to inflict a Mortal wound with them.
50% chance on a Hammerhead after moving without Longstrike in range and no Markerlights on the target.
67% chance on a Hammerhead without moving without Longstrike in range and no Markerlights on the target.
83% chance on a Hammerhead without moving with Longstrike in range and no Markerlights on the target.
97% chance on a Hammerhead without moving with Longstrike in range and 1 Markerlight on the target.

SMS on Longstrike is good because you want to be as far away from the enemy as possible and against vehicle and monster it's basically a S6-S9 weapon (depends on the targets toughness. Longstrike gets +1 on to-wound rolls against those), so it's worth investing points in it instead of just having Gun Drones which hopefully never have to shoot just to save points.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#5 » Oct 12 2017 09:05

Panzer wrote:
szeszej wrote:But still if I stick to Fusion Commander for anti-tank, the Ion Cannons should probably be all right?

Another question - Seeker Missiles, worth it or not? I just don't see spending 5 pts on 16% chance of inflicting a single mortal wound per battle (unless I simply have 5 spare pts). A single fire warrior costs just 3 more points and can dish out much more than a 1 wound per battle.

Also Arka0415 - I've taken a look at your list and you seem to be running SMS on your Longstrike. Is it because you intend to keep him as far away from enemies as possible? The SMS looks really bad and only usable with enough markerlights (although you seem to have quite a lot in your list).

Ion Cannons are fine, though I'd still take a Railgun on Longstrike himself since he causes Mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of 6+ against vehicle and monster.

Seeker Missiles are good on Hammerheads. You don't have a 16% chance to inflict a Mortal wound with them.
50% chance on a Hammerhead after moving without Longstrike in range and no Markerlights on the target.
67% chance on a Hammerhead without moving without Longstrike in range and no Markerlights on the target.
83% chance on a Hammerhead without moving with Longstrike in range and no Markerlights on the target.
97% chance on a Hammerhead without moving with Longstrike in range and 1 Markerlight on the target.

SMS on Longstrike is good because you want to be as far away from the enemy as possible and against vehicle and monster it's basically a S6-S9 weapon (depends on the targets toughness. Longstrike gets +1 on to-wound rolls against those), so it's worth investing points in it instead of just having Gun Drones which hopefully never have to shoot just to save points.


Um no Seeker missile only hits on 6 unless you have 2 markerlight on the target so 16% is still wrong because you would just mark the target first

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Panzer
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#6 » Oct 12 2017 09:14

Haha yeah I forgot about that part. :D
Well then I have to correct myself I guess since you would always have the re-roll of 1s effect.

16% without Markerlights.
30% with 1 Markerlight.

With 2 Markerlights:
75% chance on a Hammerhead after moving without Longstrike in range.
88% chance on a Hammerhead without moving without Longstrike in range.
97% chance on a Hammerhead without moving with Longstrike in range.

Still worth it. :P

Nymphomanius
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#7 » Oct 12 2017 11:26

Panzer wrote:Haha yeah I forgot about that part. :D
Well then I have to correct myself I guess since you would always have the re-roll of 1s effect.

16% without Markerlights.
30% with 1 Markerlight.

With 2 Markerlights:
75% chance on a Hammerhead after moving without Longstrike in range.
88% chance on a Hammerhead without moving without Longstrike in range.
97% chance on a Hammerhead without moving with Longstrike in range.

Still worth it. :P


Definitely worth it though I do hope they get a bit better in the codex at this moment in time hunter killer does have to roll to wound and only -3 to saves so Seeker is almost twice as effective vs single wound models but don't have the capacity to do up to 6 wounds on a monster / vehicle.

But unless you fire a Seeker missile at a guardsmen or grot if it hits it will make its points back.

Or put it this way for 25 points if you have 2 markerlight on 5 chaos chosen with melta guns (well 4 + combi melta om Sgt) you just made a 140+ points profit

And if anyone can think of a single wound models that are more points please let me know lol

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Studioworks
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#8 » Oct 12 2017 11:57

When I used 4 seekers from Longstrike and an other Hammerhead with Markers for the first time my opponent almost cried. He first didn't believe that, but 4 mortal wounds for 20 points is a pretty good investment IMO.

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Panzer
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#9 » Oct 12 2017 12:57

Yeah they are worth it when you take Hammerheads anyway (which themselves aren't THAT good unfortunately) and less worth it on Piranha, Broadsides and Devilfishes due their BS4+ and not worth it on Skyrays because it's the only thing it has and doesn't even get buffed by Longstrike.

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Arka0415
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#10 » Oct 12 2017 06:35

I think you're thinking a little too negative about our Hammerheads, szeszej! While your bog-standard Hammerhead might be a poor choice, it has three redeeming features: Longstrike, Seeker Missiles, and SMS!

szeszej wrote:But still if I stick to Fusion Commander for anti-tank, the Ion Cannons should probably be all right?

Fusion Commanders are great- by far our best anti-tank alpha strike. However, they suffer from a range disadvantage, and may not be able to engage the target you most want them to. Longstrike, with his massive range, offers the versatile hit-any-target-anywhere firepower you need to finish off tanks and secure kills. The Commander cripples the target, Longstrike secures the kill. And, with luck, Longstrike has a decent chance of dealing massive damage to a target, with a very high chance to deal D6 damage and a 33% chance for an additional D3! What's not to like about that? :D

szeszej wrote:Another question - Seeker Missiles, worth it or not? I just don't see spending 5 pts on 16% chance of inflicting a single mortal wound per battle (unless I simply have 5 spare pts). A single fire warrior costs just 3 more points and can dish out much more than a 1 wound per battle.

A Fire Warrior can dish out more than one wound per battle, but not to a tank. Putting a pair of Seeker Missiles on Longstrike or another Hammerhead gives you a very good chance to hit (1+ with Longstrike, 2+ with a Hammerhead buffed by Longstrike, or 2+ with a Hammerhead buffed by 5 Markerlight hits). Remember Seeker Missiles always re-roll ones because Markerlight buffs are cumulative. 10 points for two Mortal Wounds on a tank, or one dead Terminator, is a great option. In fact, every target you hit will deal more than 5 points worth of damage. If I could put 20 Seeker Missiles on Longstrike, I would.

szeszej wrote:Also Arka0415 - I've taken a look at your list and you seem to be running SMS on your Longstrike. Is it because you intend to keep him as far away from enemies as possible? The SMS looks really bad and only usable with enough markerlights (although you seem to have quite a lot in your list).

SMS are one of the best options in our book, especially on Longstrike. SMS offer the firepower of four Fire Warriors at about half the cost. They also ignore cover and can be fired at invisible targets. Seriously, these are full of great utility. In addition, Longstrike-mounted SMS do not suffer any penalties to hit, get +1 to wound against vehicles and monsters, and hit on 2+.

Imagine you're shooting 5 Fire Warriors (40 points) with 1 Markerlight hit at a group of Kastellans with Shroudpsalm. The Fire Warriors would deal 0.162 wounds. The SMS would get 1.296 wounds. These cost the same number of points. The SMS deal 800% as much damage.

Convinced? :D

szeszej
Shas
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#11 » Oct 13 2017 01:07

Well, thank you all for pointing out all the ways I was wrong about Hammerheads :D

But still - for SMS and Seeker Missiles to be worth it, you need enough markerlights to support this so that they don't hit on 6s.

Arka0415 - I'm not negative, I'd love to get some and play them, but I'm still a new person in this universe ;)

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Panzer
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#12 » Oct 13 2017 01:29

szeszej wrote:But still - for SMS and Seeker Missiles to be worth it, you need enough markerlights to support this so that they don't hit on 6s.

You really should be able to make two markerlights hit though... :D

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#13 » Oct 13 2017 01:50

But what else are your markerlights doing?
You do not need markerlights for the main guns of the tanks, Or even sms with them ignoring cover anyways and the great ballisti skills

Add in a fusion commander. Again he don't really need marker-lights, one turn of kayun will eliminate the need for them almost entirely for your heavy hitters.
And though im not recommending it but say some flammer crisis and now half of your force and all your main damage dealers barely need markerlights at all.

I like to keep my hammerheads and crisis moving though, if i can use terrain to keep some of my opponents anti armour units from seeing me i will. Then next turn move if i drew any forces in my direction.
Doing this i still use some markerlights to keep my shooting at 2+ but if i remain still theres no need.

I have anywhere from 20-30 and half the time don't need anywhere near that many so they provide all the support i need even as they take loses. if i really needed to though, i would choose the seekers target over where some infantry unit is targeting to support.

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Panzer
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#14 » Oct 13 2017 02:16

Well re-rolling 1s is ALWAYS useful and when you hit with one markerlight you usually hit with more as well. Unless you are really really really low on Markerlights.
The things you are shooting Seeker Missiles at are usually high priority targets so other stuff would shoot at it as well so they're benefitting from the re-roll of 1s as well.
The ion-cannon loves re-rolls of 1s too obviously.

I really don't see the issue of getting two markerlights on a target you'd want to shoot with Seeker missiles. :D

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Studioworks
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#15 » Oct 13 2017 10:55

I think the main issue with Seekers is that you need LOS to shot them. I really don't understand why. You are marking the target with Markerlight so the missile knows where to hit.

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Arka0415
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#16 » Oct 13 2017 10:39

szeszej wrote:But still - for SMS and Seeker Missiles to be worth it, you need enough markerlights to support this so that they don't hit on 6s.

Remember, you only need one extra Markerlight hit to fire a Seeker Missile, and SMS doesn't need any Markerlight support at all! On the first turn of the game, you're definitely going to identify a nasty target and pump a decent amount of firepower at it- Seeker Missiles are perfect for that first-turn volley.

szeszej wrote:Arka0415 - I'm not negative, I'd love to get some and play them, but I'm still a new person in this universe ;)

Sorry about that! I love Hammerheads, and while their main guns might be a bit lackluster, they have plenty of perks I think makes them worthwhile! :biggrin:

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Panzer
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#17 » Oct 14 2017 06:57

Huh...seems my phone ate my reply from yesterday. :-?

Studioworks wrote:I think the main issue with Seekers is that you need LOS to shot them. I really don't understand why. You are marking the target with Markerlight so the missile knows where to hit.

Nah need of LoS really isn't much of an issue at all. It's incredibly easy to draw LoS in 8th and you usually want to shoot with the tanks main weapon on stuff anyway so you can't completely hide even if it were possible.

The biggest issue is that we only have access to Seekers on expensive units which aren't exactly a competetive choice currently either (Hammerheads) or units with only BS4+ who also want to move (Devilfish&Piranha. Broadsides don't want to move but are too expensive anyway).
The Skyray has a whole different problem. Shooting Seekers is the only thing it can really do which is really terrible for such an expensive unit and doing a maximum of 6 damage the whole game. It could be fixed if the Skyray Seekers weren't one-use only but that's a different topic I guess.

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Studioworks
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Re: Hammerhead loadouts

Post#18 » Oct 14 2017 07:24

Panzer wrote:Huh...seems my phone ate my reply from yesterday. :-?

Studioworks wrote:I think the main issue with Seekers is that you need LOS to shot them. I really don't understand why. You are marking the target with Markerlight so the missile knows where to hit.

Nah need of LoS really isn't much of an issue at all.

It seems that lots of people plays with really bald tables, but my gaming group have tons of bulidings, bastions, fortresses and other terrain like hills, rocks etc... So on tables on which we play LoS is not so easy to achieve.

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