Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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deathboon
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Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#1 » Oct 13 2017 10:38

So I'm going to explain an idea and I want to hear what the community thinks:

I was just rereading the shooting rules and I realized that in 8th edition any multi-weapon model may fire it's individual weapons at different targets. In previous editions this was restricted to vehicles, monsters, and super heavies, but in 8th that's no longer the case.

How can we turn this into an advantage? Crisis suits. By fielding enough suits and by diversifying their load out, we can make sure we keep more of the weapons we need on the table at all times.
If for the sake of argument I manta strike a squad of 9 (or 3 squads of 3) and each carries 1 flamer, 1 FB, and 1 CIB, it's functionally equivalent to deepstriking 3 squads each carrying 3 of the same weapon. Yes, I'll acknowledge that it may take more finesse to position them to best effect, but that's balanced by the fact that loss of a model costs only one of each weapon not 3 of one weapon, and in the case of 3 squads of 3 makes target priority harder for your opponent because all three squads present the same threat level.

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Ricordis
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#2 » Oct 14 2017 03:28

Funny thing, I thought the same.
The merits of splitting different weapons across are, like you said, you lose all weapons equally.
But think of support systems: If you put an ATS on a suit with missile pods and a flamer and do so for all 3 suits it might be wasted.

If I play crisis suits I often mix my weapons as long as I don't use support systems on them.
I have to admit I also play crisis very different than in 7th. I am still searching for a reason to use them on a regular base. (Mini-XV88s :D)

AbsitOmen
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#3 » Oct 14 2017 04:06

Two things:

- Writes off Multi Tracker
- Positioning opens up problems, particularly if youre equipping your suits with short ranged weapons. Say each one has a BC, Flamer and FB and wants to shoot each at a separate target, you have to ensure that each model in the unit is within range of three separate targets. In contrast, if the unit was:
1 suit w/ 3 BC
1 suit w/ 3 Flamers
1 suit w/ 3 FB
Then each suit need only be positioned within range of one target.

Idk if that's an unlikely situation and there are ways of getting around it, but it just came to mind.

I do like the idea of not losing all of my special weapons if a suit dies.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#4 » Oct 14 2017 09:07

I think that this idea is OK. I think if you want to change the load outs to carry different weapons don't want to have them have the exact layout. Flamers are good and bad. It's good because the autohit is great with the BS +4 of the suit. It's bad because manta striking without a homing beacon will be one turn of not firing 1/3 of the entire unit/models entire load out. That means your only using 2/3rds of the xv8's shooting potential. So on your manta strike per 3 man team, you will have 9 CiB shots and 3 fusion blaster shots. That 1/3 shooting penalty on manta striking is a pretty hard pill to swallow. Losing a model may not seem to hurt as bad, but your still losing 3 weapons each time regardless. On a 3 man team,losing 1 model means the next turn you can shoot with 2D6 flamers, 6cibs, 2 fB if you bring them in < 8" range.

To make your idea better, I reccommend modifing the load outs to be uneven. I have tried 2 flamers on a 3 man crisis team and it worked out fairly well. I only lost 2/9ths of my shooting ability the turn they came down but the Overwatch was well worth it. This tactic is useful if you don't have enough CIBS to load your suits with, or if your doing some unique point balancing with your list.

Now I have made enough CIBs to cover my 2 three man crisis teams. So using my flamers like that is less necessary for me. It's more shots on the manta strike down/overwatch. With 27 CiB shots per each three man team makes me feel comfortable to abandon flamers, atm. Losing one model with 3 Cibs means I can shoot 18 shots < 18" range.

All in all, I think your idea is valid but flamers should be capped at UP TO 2/9ths of your entire units load out due to manta strike handicaping.
Last edited by Lostroninsoul on Oct 14 2017 09:22, edited 1 time in total.

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deathboon
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#5 » Oct 14 2017 09:18

Don't get too hung up on the weapon choices, mine are just examples to illustrate the idea, and I use flamets because I play mine super aggressively and would never not use redundant homing beacons to guarantee first turn alpha placement. But you could as easily use plasma rifles or missile pods if you had a reason

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#6 » Oct 14 2017 09:36

deathboon wrote:Don't get too hung up on the weapon choices, mine are just examples to illustrate the idea, and I use flamets because I play mine super aggressively and would never not use redundant homing beacons to guarantee first turn alpha placement. But you could as easily use plasma rifles or missile pods if you had a reason


This statement confuses me. Having weapon choices seems to be the appeal of this idea. But this statement makes me rethink about it, and I feel undermines the idea of having a mixed load out as a good thing. If you're not suggesting particular weapon load outs, what role is the crisis unit serving? If they aren't specialized to hunt a specific type of unit, then they risk becoming a 'jack of all trades, master of none.' At that point, they risk becoming ineffective for the heavy point investment.

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deathboon
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#7 » Oct 14 2017 09:49

The point of the idea is this:

In a traditional pre 8th list you might have had multiple crisis squads each squad being equipped with different weapons specializing that squad for one purpose.
In 8th the lack of targeting restrictions means that each suit can carry different weapons for different purposes allow multiple squads to work in concert against a variety of targets.
Sure no one squad will excel at one task, but by spreading the weapons and the jobs across multiple squads you limit the damage inflicted against one of your battle field roles when a suit dies.
The reason I'm not suggesting specific load outs is because different players use different playstyles. Mine is super agressive and up close, but this doesn't have be fielded that way to work.

The specific weapons a player chooses are up to them, the idea is relevant as long as
A. Each weapon on a suit has a different role
B. You field enough suits to be effective at each task you want to accomplish.

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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#8 » Oct 14 2017 10:18

Lostroninsoul wrote:
deathboon wrote:Don't get too hung up on the weapon choices, mine are just examples to illustrate the idea, and I use flamets because I play mine super aggressively and would never not use redundant homing beacons to guarantee first turn alpha placement. But you could as easily use plasma rifles or missile pods if you had a reason


This statement confuses me. Having weapon choices seems to be the appeal of this idea. But this statement makes me rethink about it, and I feel undermines the idea of having a mixed load out as a good thing. If you're not suggesting particular weapon load outs, what role is the crisis unit serving? If they aren't specialized to hunt a specific type of unit, then they risk becoming a 'jack of all trades, master of none.' At that point, they risk becoming ineffective for the heavy point investment.


I think he means more it's less about fusion, Flamer, CIB and more the concept of spreading weapons.

To me the optimal loadout for this would be fusion blaster, plasma rifle, and CIB. Everything is 18-24" range

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deathboon
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#9 » Oct 14 2017 01:48

Nymphomanius wrote:
I think he means more it's less about fusion, Flamer, CIB and more the concept of spreading weapons.

To me the optimal loadout for this would be fusion blaster, plasma rifle, and CIB. Everything is 18-24" range


Yes, exactly.

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Arka0415
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#10 » Oct 14 2017 09:12

Here's my issue with despecialized XV8 teams. Sure, you may put a mix of weapons on an XV8 team, and sure they may split-fire at any target they choose. However, the question remains- will the XV8s physically be able to do so within their range requirements?

Putting a CIB on an XV8 means you need sit at 18" of your intended target, and preferably stay there to avoid charges. Putting a Flamer on an XV8 means you're doing the opposite- you're trying to get within 9" of your target. In both of these cases, your targets are different units- Flamers like to engage light infantry, while CIBs prefer to engage heavy infantry or medium vehicles. How often will you be in a situation where you can be both within 18" of heavy infantry and 9" of light infantry?

Let's take a step back though. Warhammer 40,000 is a game, and in competitive games, players min-max. Honestly, that's how anyone competes at anything really. You choose a specialization, you pour everything you have into perfecting that specialization, and you actively avoid scenarios where your weaknesses are relevant.

We need our XV8s and Commanders to be the 'punch' of our army, and we can't pull any punches. Don't try and hit three different targets with one-third the force. Hit one target with every ounce of force you have, remove it, and do it again next turn too.

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relasine
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#11 » Oct 14 2017 11:14

Arka0415 wrote:Let's take a step back though. Warhammer 40,000 is a game, and in competitive games, players min-max. Honestly, that's how anyone competes at anything really. You choose a specialization, you pour everything you have into perfecting that specialization, and you actively avoid scenarios where your weaknesses are relevant.

We need our XV8s and Commanders to be the 'punch' of our army, and we can't pull any punches. Don't try and hit three different targets with one-third the force. Hit one target with every ounce of force you have, remove it, and do it again next turn too.

And this, honestly, is the fundamental problem that I'm having with Crisis Teams right now. Not their accuracy, which I believe people have tunneled on as an argument for leaving them at home, but their total cost.

Individually, Crisis Suit output is actually fine with just a single Markerlight not their target. The issue is that unit cost makes them so expensive that specialization ends up becoming a risk.

Want to arm your Crisis Team exclusively with Fusion Blasters? That's going to run you over 300 points. I have difficulty with stomaching a 300+ point unit that is designed specifically for hunting tanks and elite infantry, so the natural solution is to not arm them as such, but this gets precisely to the point that you made. 40k is all about force application and target priority. Setting up your Crisis Teams to do multiple jobs flies in the face of this.

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Panzer
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#12 » Oct 15 2017 02:53

One of my problems with mixing three different weapons on a suit is not just the range problems but rather that if the unit gets damaged and you're like down to one suit you'll have three different weapons who all do very little instead of having a suit with three weapons left who put a dent in that one target they're shooting at.
A single flamer, a single Fusion Blaster and a single MP won't do much if anything at all. Three flamer or three Fusion Blaster or three MP are still a threat to units and something you can actually still work with properly.

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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#13 » Oct 15 2017 03:23

Panzer wrote:One of my problems with mixing three different weapons on a suit is not just the range problems but rather that if the unit gets damaged and you're like down to one suit you'll have three different weapons who all do very little instead of having a suit with three weapons left who put a dent in that one target they're shooting at.
A single flamer, a single Fusion Blaster and a single MP won't do much if anything at all. Three flamer or three Fusion Blaster or three MP are still a threat to units and something you can actually still work with properly.


Yes but the whole idea if you went 9 suits with CIB. Plasma and fusion for example if you lose 2 suits you've only lost 2 of each gun instead of say 6/9 of your fusion blasters

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#14 » Oct 15 2017 03:58

I agree with the above feedback. But if you are going to mix. Mix the unit not the modles. When you take hits on turn three and you drones are gone as well as the light infantry near you. Lose the two flamer and drone controller suit and keep all the cibs or fusions in action.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#15 » Oct 15 2017 04:48

It depends on how you plan on building your list. The Crisis Suit is meant to plug a hole in your army. To fill a weapon niche you are lacking or to fill a special position that you might need like deepstriking melta for hard to reach tanks, or deepstriking plasma for TEQ.

Spreading out the crisis suit's weapons also spreads out what it can effectively and efficiently counter. You might be able to target more than one group type at a time, but you've also diminished your impact on them as well.
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Arka0415
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#16 » Oct 15 2017 06:55

AnonAmbientLight wrote:It depends on how you plan on building your list. The Crisis Suit is meant to plug a hole in your army. To fill a weapon niche you are lacking or to fill a special position that you might need like deepstriking melta for hard to reach tanks, or deepstriking plasma for TEQ.

Spreading out the crisis suit's weapons also spreads out what it can effectively and efficiently counter. You might be able to target more than one group type at a time, but you've also diminished your impact on them as well.


This is exactly what I'm getting at, thanks. Except for Commanders, XV8s are our only platforms for those unique Tau weapons. However, they only work in large quantities. You need large numbers of them to cause any effect. Honestly, it doesn't matter if you can engage two or three or four targets, if you can't kill any of them. XV8s, really by definition, drop into danger. They need the firepower to delete the squads close to them, not pick off a few targets from a few different squads. This kind of firepower is only possible by using a loadout of all of the same weapon, or that plus ATS.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#17 » Oct 15 2017 07:11

Especially against say necrons where elimination of units wholesale is key.

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Garacaius
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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Post#18 » Oct 15 2017 08:58

Is that value for points realistically happening with Crisis Suits given their average Ballistic Skill and their cost? It seems to me that mixing weapons would be good if suits cost 15-20 points less per model or they had 3+ Ballistic Skill -- even an extra wound.

Perhaps there is merit for an all-comers list? Is this different in a power level conversation?

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