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Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Oct 15 2017 10:51
by Bloodknife92
Garacaius wrote:Perhaps there is merit for an all-comers list? Is this different in a power level conversation?

Given that Power Level doesn't charge you for weapons at all, only models, I say the conversation would be vastly different, as a single weapon Crisis costs as much as a Crisis carrying 3 of the most expensive weapons we can take.

Carrying on to the conversation, I personally wouldn't do something like this and attempt to fire at multiple targets because, as has been said, we kinda need our firepower to really hinder the enemy since most armies can ruin us in a single turn. I'm looking at you, armies with Psykers....

For this reason, I configure my Crisis teams as is, if I'm taking them: 3 Crisis with dual Fusion and Shields(5 Drones); 3 Crisis with dual Missiles and ATS(5 Drones); or 3 Crisis with one CiB, one Plasma and Shields. I'm too conservative to risk my close range Crisis, given that anything intending to charge instantly goes from ~6" movement to ~8-18 movement(I still think charging should only be D6).

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Oct 15 2017 11:11
by Arka0415
Garacaius wrote:Is that value for points realistically happening with Crisis Suits given their average Ballistic Skill and their cost? It seems to me that mixing weapons would be good if suits cost 15-20 points less per model or they had 3+ Ballistic Skill -- even an extra wound.

XV8s aren't perfect, and honestly they might not even be mathematically viable. However, most players don't want to shell out for a dozen Commanders, so in this Index interim period, we'll be more than happy using XV8s. They're our only tough alpha strike unit.

Garacaius wrote:Perhaps there is merit for an all-comers list?

In an all-comers list, you still want to take specialized builds. Competitive lists are all-comers lists after all. Everyone plays armies with a mix of units (I've been playing since 3rd Edition and I've never seen a competitive infantry-only list) so specialized units are always viable- especially when those units have optional weapon profiles, like on XV8s.

Bloodknife92 wrote:Carrying on to the conversation, I personally wouldn't do something like this and attempt to fire at multiple targets because, as has been said, we kinda need our firepower to really hinder the enemy since most armies can ruin us in a single turn. I'm looking at you, armies with Psykers....

Exactly. Every time you destroy a unit they have less to fire with.

Bloodknife92 wrote:3 Crisis with dual Fusion and Shields(5 Drones); 3 Crisis with dual Missiles and ATS(5 Drones); or 3 Crisis with one CiB, one Plasma and Shields. I'm too conservative to risk my close range Crisis, given that anything intending to charge instantly goes from ~6" movement to ~8-18 movement(I still think charging should only be D6).

2xFB+SG is good, as is 2xFB+Flamer. 2xMP is decent but I feel like Broadsides outperform them, and Broadsides aren't even good. Though, about the close-range build, I wouldn't combine CIBs and Plasma Rifles. CIBs are skirmishing guns that you keep at 18" range, while Plasma Rifles must be fired at 12" (which basically guarantees a counter-charge) for them to be viable at all. I don't want to be overly negative but the Plasma Rifle really isn't all that good anymore, unless you're going with a 9xPR plasma spam unit.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Oct 15 2017 11:47
by AnonAmbientLight
Garacaius wrote:Is that value for points realistically happening with Crisis Suits given their average Ballistic Skill and their cost? It seems to me that mixing weapons would be good if suits cost 15-20 points less per model or they had 3+ Ballistic Skill -- even an extra wound.

Perhaps there is merit for an all-comers list? Is this different in a power level conversation?
Think of it like this. There's a reason that Commander spam doesn't have multiple weapons on a single Commander. You don't see a Commander with a flamer, two fusion blasters, and CiB running around.

The weapons are specialized because it increases performance on the first shooting round. If I drop a Commander with four fusion blasters next to a Leman Russ, that tank is probably dead. In contrast, if I dropped a Commander with a flamer, two fusion blasters, and a CiB, I'm probably not popping that tank even if I shoot everything I can at it (excluding the flamer of course). That's important because I am looking to limit return fire, at least from that target.

Another important thing to consider is target possibilities. There's a good chance that your opponent will not always have two types of units in range of your multi weapon load out. You may have to deepstrike next to a Leman Russ tank with no other unit type in shooting range. The flamer, fusion blaster, CiB squad now only has three fusion shots going at that tank and the rest of the weapons doing minimal damage.

The trademark of the T'au Crisis Suit is the ability to put weapons where you need them, exactly where you need them. If you're looking for a general all purpose build, then fusion and flamers works pretty decently.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Oct 16 2017 02:01
by Garacaius
Think of it like this. There's a reason that Commander spam doesn't have multiple weapons on a single Commander. You don't see a Commander with a flamer, two fusion blasters, and CiB running around.

The weapons are specialized because it increases performance on the first shooting round. If I drop a Commander with four fusion blasters next to a Leman Russ, that tank is probably dead. In contrast, if I dropped a Commander with a flamer, two fusion blasters, and a CiB, I'm probably not popping that tank even if I shoot everything I can at it (excluding the flamer of course). That's important because I am looking to limit return fire, at least from that target.

Another important thing to consider is target possibilities. There's a good chance that your opponent will not always have two types of units in range of your multi weapon load out. You may have to deepstrike next to a Leman Russ tank with no other unit type in shooting range. The flamer, fusion blaster, CiB squad now only has three fusion shots going at that tank and the rest of the weapons doing minimal damage.

The trademark of the T'au Crisis Suit is the ability to put weapons where you need them, exactly where you need them. If you're looking for a general all purpose build, then fusion and flamers works pretty decently.


Okay, great. I just modelled a three suit unit of Crisises (Crises?) with two fusions and a flamer each as a general purpose unit to aid in Manta-striking Commander(s) and light harassment afterwards.

In what circumstance would one ever deploy Crisis Teams normally? Maybe as a Bodyguard for an Ethereal or Longstrike?

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Oct 16 2017 04:04
by Arka0415
Garacaius wrote:In what circumstance would one ever deploy Crisis Teams normally? Maybe as a Bodyguard for an Ethereal or Longstrike?

Bodyguards (which really aren't that useful, sadly) or all-Flamer teams that make an Advance move to increase their threat range.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Oct 16 2017 04:36
by Bloodknife92
Arka0415 wrote:2xFB+SG is good, as is 2xFB+Flamer. 2xMP is decent but I feel like Broadsides outperform them, and Broadsides aren't even good. Though, about the close-range build, I wouldn't combine CIBs and Plasma Rifles. CIBs are skirmishing guns that you keep at 18" range, while Plasma Rifles must be fired at 12" (which basically guarantees a counter-charge) for them to be viable at all. I don't want to be overly negative but the Plasma Rifle really isn't all that good anymore, unless you're going with a 9xPR plasma spam unit.

You'd be surprised to know that my Plasma/Ion configured suits have been quite successful actually. They get 3 shots of S6 -3 when they move into Bolter range or when the enemy moves into said range, then I get more shots with a stronger, weaker AP weapon at three quarters Bolter range, which is fairly good against most targets. Then when I reach Rapid Fire range, I get double the Plasma, which with a full unit of 3 suits can be quite painful when combined with re-roll 1s. If the unit is charged, they ALSO get to shoot, then they're usually only charged by a half-ish strength unit or two, and they have shields to protect them right before they jump back out and finish off the enemy.

What I'm ultimately saying, is that while they don't look good on paper(to you), they perform well for me!

As for the dual Missile configuration, I rely on the range and the ATS to whittle down my enemy as they either approach or try and setup on the battlefield. Again, the 12 shots of S7 -2 is quite good. Its only twice as much shots as my Commander (6MP+ATS) and often hit about the same as the Commander with no shooting buffs. This allows me to keep as many units as I can close to my Commander/Ethereal for shooting buffs(Master of War: Kauyon/Storm of Fire).

Again, not very good on paper, but still effective for me.

As for the Broadsides, my 'sides will be Railsides purely because I love the idea of the Rail Rifles :D

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 02:51
by AleksandrGRC
Why are bodyguards bad?
Is it because why pay for bodyguards when you cant really shoot my commander behind normal crisis anyways ?
Still snipers and Psykers are a threat , no?

Would it be worthwhile to:
Have 5 suits with Cibs(or whatever) one has a drone controller.
Then have a fourth suit with a shield gen ,stim injectors and one weapon.

The first crisis to die after the drones is the off suit. The only reason i did not also give it the drone controller (which depending on your drone situation is the second crisis suit to die)
The only other reason is for the option of using it to take shots before all the drones are dead. Depending on the incoming fire, you choose to actually tank with the suits saves becsuse you believe you will only take one or two wounds saving a drones for latter.

Either way after the drones are dead its to keep the resilience going just a little bit longer, Its not a hard wall of invulnerable saves and feel no pains for all the suits its just speed bump with a little utility. Without sacraficing lots of hard-points. I totally agree with point: all the same weapons and such for actually taking out units. I just like options though... i always want more.

Would this even be viable in melee? Im not well read on my melee rules :roll:

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 04:12
by Nymphomanius
AleksandrGRC wrote:
Would it be worthwhile to:
Have 5 suits with Cibs(or whatever) one has a drone controller.
Then have a fourth suit with a shield gen ,stim injectors and one weapon.

Would this even be viable in melee? Im not well read on my melee rules :roll:


Against another non melee unit like 10 guardsmen? Yes you might kill 1-2 in combat while they do nothing in return but you're better off just shooting them.

Against anything with ws3+ and power weapons?
Don't even try it just shoot them.

Tbh unless it's to either clear an objective of a small non melee unit, or to tie up a big shooty unit you didn't want shooting next turn but that's it really.

TL:DR - No they are not good in combat

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 04:45
by AleksandrGRC
Oh i get we suck in combat
What i mean is. If im in one anyways. Can i choose to take wounds to the invul/fnp suit first until it dies or will my opponent have a lot of control over what suit in the unit he is hitting.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 04:58
by Nymphomanius
AleksandrGRC wrote:Oh i get we suck in combat
What i mean is. If im in one anyways. Can i choose to take wounds to the invul/fnp suit first until it dies or will my opponent have a lot of control over what suit in the unit he is hitting.


Yes aslong as
1. No other suits have taken any wounds, if so all wounds have to be allocated to them until they die.
2. Once the inv save suit takes a wound you have to take every wound on him until he dies, so if a SM Sgt w power sword goes first and you stop a wound and take one, you can't choose to take all the ap0 chainsword attacks on any other suits.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 05:37
by AleksandrGRC
Gotcha. Its to expensive to basically just be another shield drone. Well its basically to expensive to be a crisis suit.

giving up the 3+ save vs the first volly massed ap o shots for a 3+ 4++ 6+++ isnt worth while.


My idea isnt aweful with going just the stims on one crisis suit and two weapons. to help save some of the first volly low ap shots over drones or a none fnp unit. Like once hes dead you lose the fnp but thats ok. By time hes dead your drones should be and have lived longer for it.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 02:01
by Zadocfish
The reason is actually quite simple!

The two arguably-best Crisis weapons are the Fusion (sheer damage output) and Flamer (bypassing crappy BS). Others, like the Plasma (AP for days and reasonable firing rate) and Missile Pods (RAAAAAANGE + Assault) are cool too... but you see, they all require different ranges to fulfill their role.

If you have 1 unit of Crisis coming in with a Beacon, which would you rather have: 3 Fusions and 6 weapons that aren't going to make a dent going into a tank? 6 anti-horde weapons and 3 that can only potentially kill 1 enemy each? Or a full onslaught of 9 Fusion shots into a tank or 9 anti-infantry weapons into a horde?

That's the reason Crisis suits are best when specialized. It's because WEAPONS are specialized. Missile Pods want to be far away from the action, plinking away from relative safety. Fusion and Flamers both want to be within 9", and Beacons are a precious resource. Plasmas are best for flexibility and AP, while their damage output isn't impressive. CIBs are also great for flexibility, but are only within Pulse Carbine range and NEED Markerlight support to work well. Burst Cannons... well, they're just awful, really.

Each weapon wants to be used against a different type of enemy and from different ranges. If you mix them onto the same suit, you are REALLY banking on your enemy positioning their units in a way that benefits you, and frankly that's not going to happen often.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 06:03
by Lostroninsoul
AleksandrGRC wrote:Would it be worthwhile to:
Have 5 suits with Cibs(or whatever) one has a drone controller.
Then have a fourth suit with a shield gen ,stim injectors and one weapon.

I have been heavily thinking about running a 5-man team myself. 4 suits would have 2cibs and ats. This is one of the more efficient crisis suit loadouts you can have while covering a lot of different targets you can shoot at.
Having 9 markerlighter drones is a good way to average 5 marklights when slow rolling to reroll 1's. Delivering this care package does as much damage as having 5 suits with the same load out, due to markerlights =~5 Two nice perks using the DC suit markerlight delivery system 1. Protects markerlights for a powerful turn ,2. You can deliver 5 markerlights nearly any where (gives me a way to get around light bubblewrap with my seekers missles (2)and destroyer missles (8)if I really wish.)

I have been considering these two load outs for the 5th suit:

A.1DC 2plasma. Pros: better point conservation, more shots, high ap. Cons: not good against T7/T8, wants to drop suits closer to enemy

B.1 Dc 1ats 1 cib. Pros: makes shooting easier to resolve. Better against tougher targets. Higher absolute max damage (UpTo 9 with overcharge).Cons: cost more, lower ap, less shots

I am leaning towards option B since it makes this easier for so I'm less likely to make mistakes. It also makes the team slighly more reliable as a whole

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 06:35
by Arka0415
Zadocfish wrote:If you have 1 unit of Crisis coming in with a Beacon, which would you rather have: 3 Fusions and 6 weapons that aren't going to make a dent going into a tank? 6 anti-horde weapons and 3 that can only potentially kill 1 enemy each? Or a full onslaught of 9 Fusion shots into a tank or 9 anti-infantry weapons into a horde?

Each weapon wants to be used against a different type of enemy and from different ranges. If you mix them onto the same suit, you are REALLY banking on your enemy positioning their units in a way that benefits you, and frankly that's not going to happen often.

I couldn't have said it better myself. All good XV8 weapons are 18", 12", or 8". Unless you get really lucky about how your enemy places their units, you're not going to be firing with full efficiency. XV8s are already pretty inefficient- now imagine a wasted turn of shooting pumping Flamers into a Leman Russ...

Zadocfish wrote:CIBs are also great for flexibility, but are only within Pulse Carbine range and NEED Markerlight support to work well.

A note about this- 18" range is the good range for Tau in 8th Edition. Of our four best weapons- Fusion Blaster, CIB, Pulse Carbine, and Flamer- three of them have 18" range. Our decent-to-good units, like Stealthsuits, Gun Drones, Vespid, and Ghostkeels have 18" ranges, and all good Commander builds have 18" ranges. If you see that characteristic, 18", you know you have a good Tau unit.

Lostroninsoul wrote:I have been heavily thinking about running a 5-man team myself. 4 suits would have 2cibs and ats. This is one of the more efficient crisis suit loadouts you can have while covering a lot of different targets you can shoot at.
Having 9 markerlighter drones is a good way to average 5 marklights when slow rolling to reroll 1's. Delivering this care package does as much damage as having 5 suits with the same load out, due to markerlights =~5 Two nice perks using the DC suit markerlight delivery system 1. Protects markerlights for a powerful turn ,2. You can deliver 5 markerlights nearly any where (gives me a way to get around light bubblewrap with my seekers missles (2)and destroyer missles (8)if I really wish.)

5 XV8s and 9 Gun Drones is just asking to lose models to morale. The XV8s may have a low chance to lose models (you need a 5 after losing 4 models) but those Drones are going to fall apart. Lose three or four models in one round of shooting, and you're going to lose plenty more Drones.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 14 2017 06:45
by Lostroninsoul
Arka0415 wrote:

Lostroninsoul wrote:I have been heavily thinking about running a 5-man team myself. 4 suits would have 2cibs and ats. This is one of the more efficient crisis suit loadouts you can have while covering a lot of different targets you can shoot at.
Having 9 markerlighter drones is a good way to average 5 marklights when slow rolling to reroll 1's. Delivering this care package does as much damage as having 5 suits with the same load out, due to markerlights =~5 Two nice perks using the DC suit markerlight delivery system 1. Protects markerlights for a powerful turn ,2. You can deliver 5 markerlights nearly any where (gives me a way to get around light bubblewrap with my seekers missles (2)and destroyer missles (8)if I really wish.)

5 XV8s and 9 Gun Drones is just asking to lose models to morale. The XV8s may have a low chance to lose models (you need a 5 after losing 4 models) but those Drones are going to fall apart. Lose three or four models in one round of shooting, and you're going to lose plenty more Drones.

Yes and no. If my suits are lightly skirmished yes I can lose them to morale. I expect all the drones to be wiped out on my opponents first chance to hit back. I intend to be pitching them wholesale once the first drone is down. If I lose any drones to morale I figure I am ahead because I get another round of having 417 points of dangerous shooting units.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 15 2017 01:30
by zawyvern
Zadocfish wrote:That's the reason Crisis suits are best when specialized. It's because WEAPONS are specialized.

Zadocfish is right. To go back to the original statement, "why not take advantage of the unit design attributes?" (despecialization)
As stated by many others: the unit may be designed for flexibility, but the game rules reward specialization.
Even the multi-tracker encourages specialization.

The weapon loadout options just don't fit. They're not designed for the way the army plays now. With JSJ they worked. But the weapons are all kind of missing some crucial element now. Either too short range, not enough AP, not a high enough rate of fire/damage, etc. They're not pointed appropriately.

Also, ironically giving them another wound kind of backfired. Sure combined with the T bump it made them more survivable against small arms, but high damage weapons are more effective now. They'd be better off if they were similar to Terminators in cost and with 2 wounds.
But I don't want to get too off the main topic. Everywhere in the Tau army you get better deals for the points. A favorite comparison of mine is xv-9 vs xv-8. The base burst cannon xv-9 unit is cheaper and more effective for comparable xv-8 unit. Or stated elsewhere missileside vs mp xv-8. They can't win, there's always something better.

One thing I think could change things around would be if they could choose weapons at the beginning of a game for one base price. Kind of like old Chaos Oblits. They'd choose a paired weapon option from a list like Plas+MP, or double burst plus one system. Then they'd be much more useful in tournament as a player could tailor against any opponent and nothing would change if playing power points. The only downside would be being stuck with the support system that might not fit the weapon load out.

Zadocfish wrote:Burst Cannons... well, they're just awful, really.


burst cannons are solid all-rounder… with APS. But if you have a lot pulse rifle support it can be redundant and you end up targeting whatever's available, which may not be good targets.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 15 2017 03:45
by AleksandrGRC
Ive been thinking a lot of the pay one price and choose weapons during deployment. And wishlisting it.
I feel it matches these mecha suits we play with perfectly,
Especially since im a battletech nut.

But list tailoring is bad
And tau are already seen as "that guy" by a lot of people.

Feel torn about it, i do.

Re: Throwing out the mold: the merits of despecialization in crisis teams

Posted: Nov 15 2017 04:06
by Panzer
zawyvern wrote:
Zadocfish wrote:Burst Cannons... well, they're just awful, really.


burst cannons are solid all-rounder… with APS. But if you have a lot pulse rifle support it can be redundant and you end up targeting whatever's available, which may not be good targets.

Unfortunately they really are just bad. If you want a good all-rounder weapon take the Cyclic Ion Blaster. Burst Cannons are anti-GEQ/MEQ and there the Flamer is simply better.
At least it's not as bad as the AFP I guess. :D

AleksandrGRC wrote:Ive been thinking a lot of the pay one price and choose weapons during deployment. And wishlisting it.
I feel it matches these mecha suits we play with perfectly,
Especially since im a battletech nut.

But list tailoring is bad
And tau are already seen as "that guy" by a lot of people.

Feel torn about it, i do.

Being able to decide on Crisis weaponloadouts during deployment would be way too powerful. We could tailor our list perfectly to deal with any kind of army without any drawback while others would have to take all-comers lists. Tank heavy? Go all Fusion Blaster. Horde? Go all Flamer. Elite Infantry? Go all Plasma/CIB.
No way something like that will EVER be possible. Maybe as Stratagem. 1-2CP per unit. But even that would stretch it considering how big our Crisis units can potentially be.