The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Garacaius
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#19 » Oct 18 2017 01:27

Nymphomanius wrote:Does anyone rate burst cannons at all for crisis suits?
A squad of 3x3 will do 7.8 wounds to GEQ vs 7.4 for CIB and is 72 points cheaper which coincidentally would be another suit so for same points you get 10.5 wounds vs 7.4 and an extra body.


I think that's a good point on the points. 36 shots at S5 for 216 points. This is less than the Strike Team equivalent which is only 27 shots for 216 points. The analysis departs when you figure in the ranges, though.

We should figure in opportunity cost of using an elite slot for lawn-mowing rather than elite, HQ or heavy hunting though.

“Just one game,” they said and started to play. That was yesterday...

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Arka0415
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#20 » Oct 18 2017 02:43

Garacaius wrote:This is less than the Strike Team equivalent which is only 27 shots for 216 points. The analysis departs when you figure in the ranges, though.

Fire Warriors are all about getting in to rapid-fire range though. Is the target outside of 18"? The Fire Warriors are better because the XV8s are out of range. Is the target at or within 15"? The Fire Warriors are better as they get many more shots.

XV8s with Burst Cannons are really only better than Fire Warriors within the 15"-18" range band, which really isn't much.

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Panzer
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#21 » Oct 18 2017 02:54

Especially when you could take Pulse Carbines for that very specific range where they would be better again. :D

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Garacaius
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#22 » Oct 21 2017 12:11

Ugh, I'd feel wrong putting carbines on my FW models, though.

In any event, many thanks everyone for the input. I've learned much, though painting XV8s are my favourite thing so far.

I hope costs will go down or value up come March.

“Just one game,” they said and started to play. That was yesterday...

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Panzer
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#23 » Oct 21 2017 04:28

Garacaius wrote:Ugh, I'd feel wrong putting carbines on my FW models, though.

That's why you take Gun Drones for Carbines. ;)

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Arka0415
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#24 » Oct 21 2017 04:41

Garacaius wrote:Ugh, I'd feel wrong putting carbines on my FW models, though.

Don't worry, no one's saying to do that! Unless they buff Pulse Carbines and nerf Gun Drones, the Fire Warrior weapon of choice will be the Pulse Rifle.

By the way, where's this March rumor coming from?

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Panzer
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#25 » Oct 21 2017 04:53

Arka0415 wrote:
Garacaius wrote:Ugh, I'd feel wrong putting carbines on my FW models, though.

Don't worry, no one's saying to do that! Unless they buff Pulse Carbines and nerf Gun Drones, the Fire Warrior weapon of choice will be the Pulse Rifle.

By the way, where's this March rumor coming from?

Some source he doesn't want to name. Aka not credible at all. ^^

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Arka0415
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#26 » Oct 21 2017 04:59

Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:By the way, where's this March rumor coming from?

Some source he doesn't want to name. Aka not credible at all. ^^

Huh. I could have sworn a few other users mentioned it. Whatever. Let's keep our hopes up for December then! :P

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Panzer
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#27 » Oct 21 2017 05:03

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:By the way, where's this March rumor coming from?

Some source he doesn't want to name. Aka not credible at all. ^^

Huh. I could have sworn a few other users mentioned it. Whatever. Let's keep our hopes up for December then! :P

Yeah I mentioned that I heard so as well based on a comment on Atias blog but that was him posting there as well. A few others have mentioned something like early next year but that was more guessing/hoping than actual knowledge.

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Garacaius
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#28 » Oct 21 2017 09:30

From what I've read, the March link is to some new model releases rumoured. Whether that's credible, I don't know, but of the dates I've seen (December and March), I figure I'd use the latter as a conservative measure.

“Just one game,” they said and started to play. That was yesterday...

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#29 » Dec 08 2017 01:51

I've discovered something interesting. For a while now people wanted crisis suits to be good at something. Crisis suits can be great tank killers, if they lean on the new markerlight stratagem. They are only slighly less efficient than Fusion Blaster commanders.

Against a T7/+3 save (generally 13 wounds):

Fb Commander= 7.777damage (~20.57 points per wound)

Assuming 6 marker drones with a DC =~3.33 markerlights and the stratagem =~2, I like this crisis team load out: 3 suits, 8 Fb ,1 dc ,6 marker drones, and 1 cp.

Fb crisis= 14.518 damage (~24.727 points/wound)

I am thinking taking a FB crisis team can take some of the heavy lifting FB commanders are currently filling. This makes commanders more free to be the cheaper CIB commanders. This also lets our crisis be playable enough to be considered possibly as "competitive".

Additionally, the crisis teams bad FB rolls can be supplements with seeker/destroyer missiles if the job isnt finished. Downside is it puts a lot of weight on the cp stratagem and markerlights being average rolls. Also the use of a cp point.

"What are your thoughts?" -famous words from one of ATT's finest, Arka0415-

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Yojimbob
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#30 » Dec 08 2017 04:18

I think that's not too bad honestly. I figured with the new stratagem you'll be seeing a LOT of things becoming palatable for crisis to take over for commanders. Upside is more wounds, downside is placement and the fact that you still need less to support the commanders and it's STILL more points efficient. But when they drop the price on things and likely boost the points on the commander, we may see crisis in a good spot internally for our codex. I don't see the use of the CP to be a big deal at all if you build the list around it. I generally just burn it for rerolls and most of the time haphazardly.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#31 » Dec 08 2017 05:18

I personally am reconsidering my 1-2 crisis teams and only considering them as fusion blasters. It's a hefty investment, but the cp stratagem makes a single team playable. A second team would optimally be dropped on a different turn due to cp stratagem being a once a turn effect. But it's still sweet to have some list flexibility without having to invest in commanders whose fate is uncertain comes codex time, since crisis suits are a common unit that most tau players have at least one set of. It's in the start collecting set as well. If crisis takes point on tank killing what is the optimal place for commanders? I suspect CIB x3 with ats. This helps with swarm lists, but can still shoot at big targets ok.
Against a t7/+3 save:

cibx3+ats,Com= 4.444 damage (~31.050 pts/wounds)

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Garacaius
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#32 » Dec 09 2017 03:51

3 x CIB + ATS is reliable TEQ hunter too.

Anti-Elites.

I ended up going 2 x Fusion + Flamer for my Crisis Team. I'll have to look at replacing the Flamer now.

Thanks for this!

“Just one game,” they said and started to play. That was yesterday...

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Aedeeg
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#33 » Dec 11 2017 08:07

I think one of the main things with these discussions is that you can't look at one unit in a vacuum, especially the XV-8s. I look at them as a unit to cover your weaknesses in list design. As Arka and Panzer have mentioned, gun drones and fire warriors do strength 5 shooting much better. XV-8s suffer from their BS so most weapons are better on a Commander, hence the Flamer loadout. It's true that the markerlight stratagem could help a bit but I still think that you are going to get more mileage out of Commanders; being able to insert them easier and pinpoint targets when needed, sometimes one commander will do the trick and you can save a few in your reserves for the coming rounds. Lots of good advice here already on viable loadouts until the Codex drops.

As far as the March codex rumour goes, the Frontline gaming guys were saying that they expect to see it in February/March. Generally I'd believe them because they have been playtesting all this stuff for GW and have said similar things about other codexes this edition.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#34 » Dec 11 2017 11:53

Aedeeg wrote:I think one of the main things with these discussions is that you can't look at one unit in a vacuum, especially the XV-8s. I look at them as a unit to cover your weaknesses in list design.


One weakness is some lists is not having maximum, commanders (my issue). I also don't feel like investing in more than 3 if it has good potential to see nerfing. The XV8 can efficently cover the the tank hunt role now freeing up the commanders to cover other areas efficiently. This topic is all about XV8 battle role, so I think it is important to talk about it" in a vacuum" and giving it a specific battle field role. I choose "tank hunter"
Aedeeg wrote: As Arka and Panzer have mentioned, gun drones and fire warriors do strength 5 shooting much better. XV-8s suffer from their BS so most weapons are better on a Commander, hence the Flamer loadout.


To equal the same damage that the crisis team produces with strength 5 shots on a t7 /+3 save target, you need 98 gundrones ( no buff). That's 784 pints gun drones versus 359 points of crisis suits.

As for you flamer suits, you need ~12.4 flamer suits to do the same damage to that kind of target (not including a homing beacon delivery system: clocks in at about ~550 points ).
It is likely that a commander with 3 CIBs and an ats would be more efficient mopping up anything the flame suits would want to mop up anyways. Not needing so many FB commanders means you can carry more CIB commanders

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Arka0415
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#35 » Dec 12 2017 03:47

Lostroninsoul wrote:
Aedeeg wrote: As Arka and Panzer have mentioned, gun drones and fire warriors do strength 5 shooting much better. XV-8s suffer from their BS so most weapons are better on a Commander, hence the Flamer loadout.

To equal the same damage that the crisis team produces with strength 5 shots on a t7 /+3 save target, you need 98 gundrones ( no buff). That's 784 pints gun drones versus 359 points of crisis suits.

As for you flamer suits, you need ~12.4 flamer suits to do the same damage to that kind of target (not including a homing beacon delivery system: clocks in at about ~550 points ).

You math isn't correct here. A single XV8 with 3 Burst Cannons has half the firepower of an equal number of points of Gun Drones.

XV8 w/ 3x Burst Cannons (72) - 12 shots > 6 hits
9x Gun Drones (72) - 36 shots > 12 hits

It should be pretty clear that Gun Drones offer double the firepower of an XV8 armed with Burst Cannons.

Also, what are you talking about with 12.4 Flamer XV8s? That would cost 850+ points not counting the delivery system, not to mention the fact that you can't deploy 12+ Flamer XV8s from Manta Strike anyway given the one-unit limitation. Plus 12.4 Flamer XV8s would do an absolutely heinous amount of damage to a T7/Sv3+ target, obviously, seeing as those models cost nearly a thousand points. I think you're confusing yourself with your math, I'd run the numbers again if I were you.

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JancoBCN
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Re: The Confused Shas'el -- A Discussion on Battlefield Role for Crisis Battlesuits

Post#36 » Dec 12 2017 05:27

I would like to jump into this really interesting discussion, if you don't mind :biggrin:

I want to comment on that:

StealthKnightSteg wrote:I would add "Flamer, Flamer, FB" to the serious load out list.
I have used that setup to great effect


I actually do agree on that, thanks to the new stratagem. Exactly for this reason:

StealthKnightSteg wrote:
Panzer wrote:I was thinking about that as well, but I don't think it's a very strong loadout.


I think that 3x Flamers (on 3 XV8's) is too little to make a good impact on bigger infantry units (10+) and 6 would do the job nicely to get enough kills while 9 is overkill. So while you are within 8" for your targets you might as well make some use of the FBs extra damage posibilty by targetting a nearby vehicle or elite unit.

Why do you consider this as a not very strong loadout?


And for the same reason that I have started putting a FB to my 3-man Stealth team. I think the unit of Xv8 with those different close ranged weapons are the perfect homing beacon user in many situations. The fact that usually you want to drop your stealth early in deployment to not let your opponent deny you a good spot, it makes that you will not always end up being close to a 30-man horde unit, which would be an excellent target for your 3xFlamer Crisis suits. If you have more anti-horde in your list (Gun drones?), you can let your Crisis team with a great potential to help in that regard, while taking advantage of your melta-range dropping thanks to homing beaconing. I actually used this loadout in a 3man team this past Sunday and I was able to help anihilate a 30-man termagaunts unit while making 7-8 damage to their Tervigon (with 5 markers on her), thanks to this melta damage. In the next game, I managed to almost kill an Alaitoc Flyier, while killing 6 Dire Avengers. I then used my drones to finish the Avengers, and my FB commanders (outside of melta due to normal deep-striking) to finish that vehicle with ease, even splitting their FB.

Those 3FB in your Crisis team in melta range and markerlight support, will be even more efficient than a commander out of melta range (even re-rolling 1's) would be.

I see that, if you don't have more antihorde, or you really rely on your Xv8 team for that duty, you might go for the full 9xFlamer, but I also think you will put al eggs into the same basket, and you will depend on which unit your opponent drops close to your stealth team. Because Flamers without beacon is not a good place to be.
Also, your unit with different guns will always be a threat, while a full flamer team will not bother that much a mechanized/TEQ-heavy army, and the same will happen with a full FB team vs an only-horde Ork army. And I like being a thread :evil:



On the other hand, regarding the 9xFB Crisis Team option, I think they are now more viable thanks to the new stratagem, regarding points/wound. But this team has a somewhat "hidden" drawback vs a FBC (other than the Character rule), which is that as you must have 5 markers on your target to be efficiently enough to even
be considered as an option, you actually will need your target to be marked up, but if you manage to end up in melta range (through homing beacon, or in the turns after deep striking) you will be doing ~18.54 wounds at your target, and you can count 20+ if you have your Re-roll available, which is actually overkill for almost any vehicle. That will make you split your shoots, maybe doing 6-3, or 7-2, which will mean 3 things:
1) you will need to put 5 markers to the other target as well (more points and resources invested, so less efficiency).
2) you will shoot at the other target with 2-3 FB at flat 4+ (also less efficiency, to the point of almost no effect, wounding 1/3 of the shoots).
3) you don't split because you don't wnat to "waste" any FB shoot, so you will overkill the target, and instead of 20 theoretical damage you will make with dice rolls, you will actually will be killing a 12-14 wounds worth of vehicle/monster instead (again, way lower efficiency than the calculated one).

This point makes that splitting your FB in smaller amounts through your units will be convinient, as you will declare the following targets knowing how many wounds are left on your victims... which makes FBC an even more efficient unit than 9xFB Crisis teams.

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