Alaitoc Counters

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
b.watson
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Alaitoc Counters

Post#1 » Oct 27 2017 10:50

An entire faction of -1 to hit from 12" away (they stole our Ghostkeel technology! :eek: ), with the potential to stack units up to a possiible -3 to hit. Seeing as how most T'au hit on a 4+ and the obvious way to counter this is with melee units, how are people planing on countering this?

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relasine
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#2 » Oct 27 2017 11:25

Simplest answer is to incorporate Flamers into your list, so Y’vahras and Crisis Teams.

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Emberkahn
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#3 » Oct 28 2017 06:31

Further, we are one of the best teams in the game at getting inside 12" with shooting.

This -1 to hit BS just reaffirms the power of Commanders, Yvahra, and Drones

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Arka0415
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#4 » Oct 28 2017 08:32

Manta Strike, mechanized units, Gun Drones- we Tau love playing around 18". Shouldn't be hard to roll up 6" forward and get around that Alaitoc ability!

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leo1925
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#5 » Nov 18 2017 05:17

I recently played (with a guard list) against an Alaitoc army, i lost big time, ok the hammer and anvil deployment didn't help, nor did the terrain but the main thing was that i understood too late that i should be trying my best to close the distance.

What i took from the match is that the rangers (the eldar snipers) are a very good unit, alaitoc snipers even more so, also eldar have quite a few ways to impose a -1 to hit (which stack), they have:
1)rangers have a built in -1 to hit
2)warlocks have access to conceal which is another -1 to hit
3)they have a 2CP stratagem that imposes a -1 to hit (that can affect vehicles too) and of course the Alaitoc give a -1 to hit to anything beyond the 12" and have an exclusive 1cp stratagem that makes their ranger (while in cover) to be hit only at 6s.
4)warp spiders give a -1 to hit with a very small chance of casualty

In summary, eldar units are quite sturdy, alaitoc eldar units superbly so, that's why you have to go inside the 12" as soon as possible.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#6 » Nov 18 2017 07:33

leo1925 wrote:I recently played (with a guard list) against an Alaitoc army, i lost big time, ok the hammer and anvil deployment didn't help, nor did the terrain but the main thing was that i understood too late that i should be trying my best to close the distance.

What i took from the match is that the rangers (the eldar snipers) are a very good unit, alaitoc snipers even more so, also eldar have quite a few ways to impose a -1 to hit (which stack), they have:
1)rangers have a built in -1 to hit
2)warlocks have access to conceal which is another -1 to hit
3)they have a 2CP stratagem that imposes a -1 to hit (that can affect vehicles too) and of course the Alaitoc give a -1 to hit to anything beyond the 12" and have an exclusive 1cp stratagem that makes their ranger (while in cover) to be hit only at 6s.
4)warp spiders give a -1 to hit with a very small chance of casualty

In summary, eldar units are quite sturdy, alaitoc eldar units superbly so, that's why you have to go inside the 12" as soon as possible.


And bring fire, lots of fire to auto hit those elves, pick up a singing spear and a fire dragon breath Flamer and make an aeldari shish kebab! :)

But seriously flamers are your friends vs to hit modifiers and unlike alpha Legion / raven guard eldar are T3 so 3+ to wound :fear:

CMO
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#7 » Nov 26 2017 02:38

I played against an Alaitoc list this weekend and while the advice to use flamers is good advice, without list tailoring, it’s a massive uphill battle to inflict any damage at all. Wave Serpents at -2 to hit, that have armour saves and then reduce damage by 1 and then roll a feel no pain equivalent means that it’s practically impossible to stop Wave Serpents delivering their payload wherever they want it. Manta strike is a good option, but after the alpha strike, the Eldar won’t be where you are anymore with their battle focus allowing them to advance and still fire at full effect. If you don’t kill them the turn you arrive, they’re gone with an average move and advance of 16-18 inches.

The game was a close one maelstrom points wise, but in reality I had the frustrating feeling that I wasn’t really playing against my opponent, but against a single key word that guaranteed him victory in hammer and anvil deployment. He admitted that he won the day before the game when he wrote “Alaitoc” on his army list.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#8 » Nov 26 2017 05:26

Fight fire with fire :evil: Run a stealth army with Stealthsuits instead of Fire Warriors, and Ghostkeels for some heavier firepower. Throw some Broadsides in your backline, or Longstrike and some Hammerheads(which will ALL hit on 3+ against Alaitoc) and you'll have a better fighting chance because your opponent will feel a similar struggle.
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Emberkahn
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#9 » Nov 28 2017 04:51

Bloodknife92 wrote:Fight fire with fire :evil: Run a stealth army with Stealthsuits instead of Fire Warriors, and Ghostkeels for some heavier firepower. Throw some Broadsides in your backline, or Longstrike and some Hammerheads(which will ALL hit on 3+ against Alaitoc) and you'll have a better fighting chance because your opponent will feel a similar struggle.


I find this tactic inefficient because Eldar have a better base BS. -2 BS agaisnt us results in 1/3 the damage. -2 BS against them results in 1/2 the damage. It's not as effective. Not to mention the fact that whilst we pay through the nose for -1 to Hit, Altoic take it free of charge.

Broadsides are unlikely to be effective. 6+ to hit isn't going to be much use.

Likewise Longstrike and Co are just unlikely to be doing that much damage against their optimal targets and thus are unlikely to be worth their points.

Regarding movement, depending on how he deploys you should be able to corner the concerning parts of his army.

Further, if you have access to them, take tigersharks. 2+ to hit and can easily fly to stay within 12", and an abundance of S6 weaponry, they will mincemeat eldar to a degree where it stops being funny.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#10 » Nov 28 2017 05:16

I'm just going to run longstrike, only. He buffs his +2 bs with +1 to hit rolls from fire caste exemplar means he should still deal about ~3 damage a shot on average against vechiles with a -1 to hit rolls if he has exemplar of kayoun warlord trait and doesn't move. That's decent spread over 3 or more turns.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#11 » Nov 28 2017 08:06

Emberkahn wrote:I find this tactic inefficient because Eldar have a better base BS. -2 BS agaisnt us results in 1/3 the damage. -2 BS against them results in 1/2 the damage. It's not as effective. Not to mention the fact that whilst we pay through the nose for -1 to Hit, Altoic take it free of charge.


I don't know where you got -2 from, Alaitoc only provides -1 to hit for enemies further than 12" away, and if you didn't like my advice in a thread literally asking for advice, then don't take it.
The days of goodly English is went
Ziss old dog still has a few tricks!

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leo1925
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#12 » Nov 28 2017 08:53

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:I find this tactic inefficient because Eldar have a better base BS. -2 BS agaisnt us results in 1/3 the damage. -2 BS against them results in 1/2 the damage. It's not as effective. Not to mention the fact that whilst we pay through the nose for -1 to Hit, Altoic take it free of charge.


I don't know where you got -2 from, Alaitoc only provides -1 to hit for enemies further than 12" away, and if you didn't like my advice in a thread literally asking for advice, then don't take it.


And the rangers have another -1, the warp spiders have another -1, there is a psychic power that gives another -1 (affects infantry and bikes), a 2cp stratagem that gives another -1 (affects units with FLY) and a different psychic power that gives your unit -1 to hit. Do not worry the eldar aren't in short supply of -1, with alaitoc it just becomes annoying.

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Arka0415
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#13 » Nov 28 2017 08:55

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:I find this tactic inefficient because Eldar have a better base BS. -2 BS agaisnt us results in 1/3 the damage. -2 BS against them results in 1/2 the damage. It's not as effective. Not to mention the fact that whilst we pay through the nose for -1 to Hit, Altoic take it free of charge.


I don't know where you got -2 from, Alaitoc only provides -1 to hit for enemies further than 12" away, and if you didn't like my advice in a thread literally asking for advice, then don't take it.


I think Emberkahn is getting at the idea that many good Alaitoc lists spam units like Warlocks, Rangers, and vehicles to increase the number of units with native -1 to hit penalties, making many (but not all) of their units -2 to hit.

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Emberkahn
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#14 » Nov 28 2017 09:31

Arka0415 wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:I find this tactic inefficient because Eldar have a better base BS. -2 BS agaisnt us results in 1/3 the damage. -2 BS against them results in 1/2 the damage. It's not as effective. Not to mention the fact that whilst we pay through the nose for -1 to Hit, Altoic take it free of charge.


I don't know where you got -2 from, Alaitoc only provides -1 to hit for enemies further than 12" away, and if you didn't like my advice in a thread literally asking for advice, then don't take it.


I think Emberkahn is getting at the idea that many good Alaitoc lists spam units like Warlocks, Rangers, and vehicles to increase the number of units with native -1 to hit penalties, making many (but not all) of their units -2 to hit.


I meant no offence bloodknife. But no idea is immune from discussion or argument. That is after all the entire point of this forum. I didn't ask for the advice. But it is worth challenging other people on their advice.

Regarding -'s to hit, in my experience anything that I care about shooting (like deathstars) often has another way to get -1 to hit, usually through psychic powers. That being said, the math for -2 was also considerably easier to use to demonstrate my point.

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Arka0415
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#15 » Nov 28 2017 10:46

Emberkahn wrote:Regarding -'s to hit, in my experience anything that I care about shooting (like deathstars) often has another way to get -1 to hit, usually through psychic powers. That being said, the math for -2 was also considerably easier to use to demonstrate my point.

There are no Alaitoc players in my local area (luckily!) but my hunch is this- the only way to stop Alaitoc debuff shenanigans is by getting in within that 12" area. Flamers, CIBs, Fusion Blasters, etc. Maybe even assaults.

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Emberkahn
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#16 » Nov 29 2017 12:23

Arka0415 wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:Regarding -'s to hit, in my experience anything that I care about shooting (like deathstars) often has another way to get -1 to hit, usually through psychic powers. That being said, the math for -2 was also considerably easier to use to demonstrate my point.

There are no Alaitoc players in my local area (luckily!) but my hunch is this- the only way to stop Alaitoc debuff shenanigans is by getting in within that 12" area. Flamers, CIBs, Fusion Blasters, etc. Maybe even assaults.


Seconded!

prendeho
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#17 » Dec 04 2017 04:06

I have a friend that plays Eldar a lot and I have learned one thing that I haven't seen mentioned, and its the Eldar psychic phase. Its brutal, think of taking ~5d3 mortal wounds, sometimes becoming d6, every psychic phase. 3 smites + executioner (d3 mortal wounds, and if it kills another d3, bye bye all 1w models), which for eldar is 3 pyschers.

When you get into that 12" sweet spot, whatever is there is most likely very close to a pyscher, and is going to most likely get punched in the face with smites. Shield drones mitigate this to a degree, but losing those guys before the shooting phase is brutal, and you're putting a lot of faith in that 5+ fnp.

Facing Eldar is really really hard if they know what they are doing. I'm 0-7 against my friend. They can put down ~5 squads of rangers that come in start of battle round turn 1 with infiltrate. This is huge, as they are coming in when they player knows if they are going first or not, and puts them down accordingly. They deny a lot of deep strike room, so its hard to get at the armies soft spots.

Rangers, by the way, are most likely going to be -2 to hit and 3+ in cover. Combined with the stratagem that makes them a further -1 to hit, it getss silly.

Picture this:

2 wave serpents with vectered thrusters (every advance gives another -1 to hit) with howling banshees inside (no overwatch on charge) and Wraith Guard inside (auto hitting s10 -4 rend 10" guns with d6 shots)

5 squads rangers around the board denying deep strike and being a pain on objectives. They are all snipers so they can take pot shots at just about any unit fishing for that 6+ mortal wound.

5 psychers raining down mortal wounds and buffing/debuffing your dudes (fire prisms re-rolling wounds/to hits, or dark reapers) These guys often will have ghost helms so even if they peril, they do not care. And they re-roll failed tests.

fire prisms/dark reapers in the back shooting down your armor at high bs/high st/dmg

deep strikers that can wipe out a squad with assault 3 shooting

howling banshees that disembark and go 7" + d6 + 7" + d6 (psychic power) and then charging and that charge being +3 with no overwatch

and more...

needless to say Eldar, if they know what they are doing, can control the tempo of the game from deployment. I have found that they are a real up hill fight that I have yet to overcome.

Markerlights at best will be giving you re-rolling 1's, maybe adv with heavy wepaons/assaults with the new strategem

Velocity trackers on commanders are great, but I have seen a single wave serpent tank 12 fusion blaster shots (9 hit, failed to wound/bad rolls, but between serpent shield and spirit stones, those tanks are TOUGH)

Sorry for rambling a bit. I have more experiences with it, but thats what comes to mind now. My friend plays hard and fast, and eldar have an answer for just about everything you can think of, and they do your shooting x1000 better

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Emberkahn
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Re: Alaitoc Counters

Post#18 » Dec 04 2017 04:50

prendeho wrote:I have a friend that plays Eldar a lot and I have learned one thing that I haven't seen mentioned, and its the Eldar psychic phase. Its brutal, think of taking ~5d3 mortal wounds, sometimes becoming d6, every psychic phase. 3 smites + executioner (d3 mortal wounds, and if it kills another d3, bye bye all 1w models), which for eldar is 3 pyschers.

When you get into that 12" sweet spot, whatever is there is most likely very close to a pyscher, and is going to most likely get punched in the face with smites. Shield drones mitigate this to a degree, but losing those guys before the shooting phase is brutal, and you're putting a lot of faith in that 5+ fnp.

Facing Eldar is really really hard if they know what they are doing. I'm 0-7 against my friend. They can put down ~5 squads of rangers that come in start of battle round turn 1 with infiltrate. This is huge, as they are coming in when they player knows if they are going first or not, and puts them down accordingly. They deny a lot of deep strike room, so its hard to get at the armies soft spots.

Rangers, by the way, are most likely going to be -2 to hit and 3+ in cover. Combined with the stratagem that makes them a further -1 to hit, it getss silly.

Picture this:

2 wave serpents with vectered thrusters (every advance gives another -1 to hit) with howling banshees inside (no overwatch on charge) and Wraith Guard inside (auto hitting s10 -4 rend 10" guns with d6 shots)

5 squads rangers around the board denying deep strike and being a pain on objectives. They are all snipers so they can take pot shots at just about any unit fishing for that 6+ mortal wound.

5 psychers raining down mortal wounds and buffing/debuffing your dudes (fire prisms re-rolling wounds/to hits, or dark reapers) These guys often will have ghost helms so even if they peril, they do not care. And they re-roll failed tests.

fire prisms/dark reapers in the back shooting down your armor at high bs/high st/dmg

deep strikers that can wipe out a squad with assault 3 shooting

howling banshees that disembark and go 7" + d6 + 7" + d6 (psychic power) and then charging and that charge being +3 with no overwatch

and more...

needless to say Eldar, if they know what they are doing, can control the tempo of the game from deployment. I have found that they are a real up hill fight that I have yet to overcome.

Markerlights at best will be giving you re-rolling 1's, maybe adv with heavy wepaons/assaults with the new strategem

Velocity trackers on commanders are great, but I have seen a single wave serpent tank 12 fusion blaster shots (9 hit, failed to wound/bad rolls, but between serpent shield and spirit stones, those tanks are TOUGH)

Sorry for rambling a bit. I have more experiences with it, but thats what comes to mind now. My friend plays hard and fast, and eldar have an answer for just about everything you can think of, and they do your shooting x1000 better


Sounds like you are up against some very talented Eldar players. May condolences. It is true that most of Tau's strength lies in exploiting mistakes; i.e deepstriking to punish bad deployment. A good eldar player can definitely prevent this. Hell, even their average units, like shining spears, are absolute monsters when played right. The problem is that I think you are right; most of their strength comes from control which we can't really do heaps about.

Again, I would reiterate my call for Tiger-sharks, but without reliable CC to deal with things like rangers its going to be an uphill battle.

Good on you for sticking with it when down 7 games though. A lot of my friends would rage quit when that happens.

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