How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
User avatar
T.Wiseau
Shas'Saal
Posts: 9

How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#1 » Oct 30 2017 03:41

So I was wondering how more experienced T'au players deal with these ultra fast units that can reliably assault on turn 1. Things like Saint Celestine, Magnus, Harlequin Bikers etc. Since I tend to have a lot of units in my lists I rarely get the first turn.
It's not true, it's bullsh*t I did not overheat, I did not! Oh Hi MARKerlight!

User avatar
Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 90

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#2 » Oct 30 2017 03:59

There are five things that I do.

1) In deployment do my utmost to create a deep board. Units tend to only be able to reliably assault turn one if you both deploy right at the 24" line. If you can put some more distance at the start in setup based on deployment selection etc you tend to have a better time.
2) Keep your firepower in manta strike. This follows similar logic, but essentially if you can drop from the sky and kill them before they can do anything, you'll be fine.
3) If you know you are going to be charged, make it a super nasty prospect for them to do so; i.e. abuse the greater good. Yvahra for example I find are a super effective way to persuade opponents to not charge. Regardless, if you keep your units bunched, it can be a lot harder.
4) Charge their assault units with stuff you don't care about. My go to for this is devil-fish, and they perform their duties admirably.
5) If they have a deepstriking melee unit, like a cullexus assassin, I try to bubble wrap my essential characters and units in pathfinders and drones. This makes it pretty impossible to get to the juicy stuff. Most decent melee units are expensive, so if you can just redirect them to unimportant things while you wait for the crisis commanders to deal with it in my experience you are fine.

I find that this edition at 1.5k points or less is more or less pure rocket tag. You decapitate turn 1/2 and then its over. Given this, I treat CC as I would shooting; 13/19/26" range charges that nuke you. If anything CC armies are less threatening than shooting because they can't reliably rocket tag you. This gives you a massive advantage. Add that to the fact that we are easily the best Kiters in the game (speed, toughness, character shenanigans) and I think we are in a good place for dealing with this. When your opponent takes CC they are just inviting a rocket tag.

Most of my experience has been with Celestine, who my regular opponent takes every week. She is pretty easy for us to deal with.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#3 » Oct 30 2017 04:02

Only two ways to reliably deal with it really.
1. Bubble wrap your important units (Firewarrior or Drones, but Kroot would work as well).
or
2. Don't have them on the table turn 1 (reserves or in transports).

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1933

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#4 » Oct 31 2017 06:48

Also, it's important to think during deployment: which enemy units can assault me on turn one, if any? If you see models with swords going into deep strike reserve, or mobs of guys with axes piling into transport, or giant models with wings... it's time to start deploying deep, bubble-wrapping your priority units, and preparing for a rapid enemy advance. We Tau do very well in the 12"-18" range band, and we like to keep it that way. When your enemy comes to you, that can often be a great advantage, so long as you eviscerate that rapid advance with your short-ranged firepower.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#5 » Oct 31 2017 07:15

It's also important to note that charges out of reserves are extremely unlikely to be successfull.
Only 28% chance to get a 9+ with 2d6 iirc.
With the re-roll stratagem it depends on the rolls. If one of them is a 6 it's a 67% chance to get a 9+, with one of it being a 5 it's a 50% chance and with one of the dice being a 4 it's already down to only a 33% chance to get a 9+.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1933

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#6 » Oct 31 2017 08:17

Panzer wrote:It's also important to note that charges out of reserves are extremely unlikely to be successfull.
Only 28% chance to get a 9+ with 2d6 iirc.
With the re-roll stratagem it depends on the rolls. If one of them is a 6 it's a 67% chance to get a 9+, with one of it being a 5 it's a 50% chance and with one of the dice being a 4 it's already down to only a 33% chance to get a 9+.

Low chance normally, but some units are quite good at it. Howling Banshees come to mind, especially with a command point re-roll. I think Genestealer Cults can also do it decently well, as can Orks. New Tyranids will also have some ability, at least looking at their new Adaptations.

Nymphomanius
Shas
Posts: 287
Contact:

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#7 » Nov 01 2017 08:30

Also remember the grav inhibitor drones affect enemy units within 12" of it and doesn't just guard pathfinders so 2-3 throughout your lines can make deepstriking units need an 11+ to get into combat from deepstrike which is what 5.5% chance?
If one dice is a 6 it's 33% with a reroll but if highest dice is 5 it's 16.6% and impossible otherwise

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1933

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#8 » Nov 01 2017 10:07

Nymphomanius wrote:Also remember the grav inhibitor drones affect enemy units within 12" of it and doesn't just guard pathfinders so 2-3 throughout your lines can make deepstriking units need an 11+ to get into combat from deepstrike which is what 5.5% chance?
If one dice is a 6 it's 33% with a reroll but if highest dice is 5 it's 16.6% and impossible otherwise

If your opponent is counting on charge, they will kill that drone.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#9 » Nov 01 2017 10:13

Yeah as long as the Drone can be shot at seperately it's really not worth it.
Maaaaybe with two Shield Drones from the Pathfinder unit since they from a single unit and Shield Drones are quite annoying to get through with cheap shooting, however you'd be paying 24p for the -2" on charge then.

Nymphomanius
Shas
Posts: 287
Contact:

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#10 » Nov 01 2017 10:27

Arka0415 wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:Also remember the grav inhibitor drones affect enemy units within 12" of it and doesn't just guard pathfinders so 2-3 throughout your lines can make deepstriking units need an 11+ to get into combat from deepstrike which is what 5.5% chance?
If one dice is a 6 it's 33% with a reroll but if highest dice is 5 it's 16.6% and impossible otherwise

If your opponent is counting on charge, they will kill that drone.


I don't know what circles you guys play in but mines purely social, most my opponents don't even look at drones I even have to remind them they count as separate units in killpoint missions

Also if a combat unit is alpha striking most of those units carry pistol weapons with a max range of 12" maybe 1-2 will be in range of the drone but only 1 has to be in range to use his ability.

Yes other units may be able to shoot at it but then remember they have to declare the whole units shooting before rolling any dice, do they fire 2-3 shots at it which may kill it statistically but we all know how fickle nuffle is.
Or a whole squad shoots at 1 drone? Cool that's 8pts still well spent in my eyes it's done it's job in a different aspect.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1933

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#11 » Nov 01 2017 10:40

Nymphomanius wrote:I don't know what circles you guys play in but mines purely social, most my opponents don't even look at drones I even have to remind them they count as separate units in killpoint missions

If your opponent doesn't know what your drones do, you're probably going to do well!

Nymphomanius wrote:Also if a combat unit is alpha striking most of those units carry pistol weapons with a max range of 12" maybe 1-2 will be in range of the drone but only 1 has to be in range to use his ability.

If your opponent doesn't have any long-range units capable of killing the drone, you're probably going to do even better!

Sounds like this game is off to a good start!





Though there is an interesting psychology question here. Do you remind your opponent what the drones do, and possibly lose the drones? Or do you keep quiet? :P

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#12 » Nov 01 2017 10:41

Nymphomanius wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:Also remember the grav inhibitor drones affect enemy units within 12" of it and doesn't just guard pathfinders so 2-3 throughout your lines can make deepstriking units need an 11+ to get into combat from deepstrike which is what 5.5% chance?
If one dice is a 6 it's 33% with a reroll but if highest dice is 5 it's 16.6% and impossible otherwise

If your opponent is counting on charge, they will kill that drone.


I don't know what circles you guys play in but mines purely social, most my opponents don't even look at drones I even have to remind them they count as separate units in killpoint missions

Also if a combat unit is alpha striking most of those units carry pistol weapons with a max range of 12" maybe 1-2 will be in range of the drone but only 1 has to be in range to use his ability.

Yes other units may be able to shoot at it but then remember they have to declare the whole units shooting before rolling any dice, do they fire 2-3 shots at it which may kill it statistically but we all know how fickle nuffle is.
Or a whole squad shoots at 1 drone? Cool that's 8pts still well spent in my eyes it's done it's job in a different aspect.

Eh knowing and acting according to the rules has nothing to do with a group being casual or competetive. If they don't shoot at drone they are just not good players. ^^

Also it's not about the unit deep striking shooting the Drone. There are other units on the table as well. If one plays a unit that wants to get into melee it's because it's a central tactic for the army. A whole unit shooting at a Grav inhib Drone to ensure that unit gets into melee is definitely worth it.

Nymphomanius
Shas
Posts: 287
Contact:

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#13 » Nov 01 2017 10:45

Arka0415 wrote:
Though there is an interesting psychology question here. Do you remind your opponent what the drones do, and possibly lose the drones? Or do you keep quiet? :P


Personally? If they ask what units are there and what they do I'll tell them otherwise it's their perogative.

But it works both ways if I ask the toughness / save or weird special rules of my targets before shooting they're not going to lie to me.

But if I don't realise rubric Marines have +1 Sv from D1 weapons until after shooting for example that's my lookout

Nymphomanius
Shas
Posts: 287
Contact:

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#14 » Nov 01 2017 11:04

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:If your opponent is counting on charge, they will kill that drone.


I don't know what circles you guys play in but mines purely social, most my opponents don't even look at drones I even have to remind them they count as separate units in killpoint missions

Also if a combat unit is alpha striking most of those units carry pistol weapons with a max range of 12" maybe 1-2 will be in range of the drone but only 1 has to be in range to use his ability.

Yes other units may be able to shoot at it but then remember they have to declare the whole units shooting before rolling any dice, do they fire 2-3 shots at it which may kill it statistically but we all know how fickle nuffle is.
Or a whole squad shoots at 1 drone? Cool that's 8pts still well spent in my eyes it's done it's job in a different aspect.

Eh knowing and acting according to the rules has nothing to do with a group being casual or competetive. If they don't shoot at drone they are just not good players. ^^

Also it's not about the unit deep striking shooting the Drone. There are other units on the table as well. If one plays a unit that wants to get into melee it's because it's a central tactic for the army. A whole unit shooting at a Grav inhib Drone to ensure that unit gets into melee is definitely worth it.


I see you have never played a casual game before? :D

You've clearly never had to remind someone of their own rules because they've not played in so long they have forgotten?

I once had to correct someone who thought firewarriors were WS5
And I don't mean 5+ to hit as they currently exist but back in 6th ed watching 2 players both genuinely believe that firewarriors should hit orks on a 3+ in melee...

Casual gamers don't necessarily play to win they play for fun and winning is just a nice bonus.

Crist I've seen players just call a game because they don't want to spend the next 2 turns wiping out the rest of a friends army because it's just not fun.

So yes skill is a factor but just remember it's still just a game that's enjoyed but lots of different people for lots of different reasons, not everyone is a fanatic :D

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#15 » Nov 01 2017 11:10

Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
I don't know what circles you guys play in but mines purely social, most my opponents don't even look at drones I even have to remind them they count as separate units in killpoint missions

Also if a combat unit is alpha striking most of those units carry pistol weapons with a max range of 12" maybe 1-2 will be in range of the drone but only 1 has to be in range to use his ability.

Yes other units may be able to shoot at it but then remember they have to declare the whole units shooting before rolling any dice, do they fire 2-3 shots at it which may kill it statistically but we all know how fickle nuffle is.
Or a whole squad shoots at 1 drone? Cool that's 8pts still well spent in my eyes it's done it's job in a different aspect.

Eh knowing and acting according to the rules has nothing to do with a group being casual or competetive. If they don't shoot at drone they are just not good players. ^^

Also it's not about the unit deep striking shooting the Drone. There are other units on the table as well. If one plays a unit that wants to get into melee it's because it's a central tactic for the army. A whole unit shooting at a Grav inhib Drone to ensure that unit gets into melee is definitely worth it.


I see you have never played a casual game before? :D

You've clearly never had to remind someone of their own rules because they've not played in so long they have forgotten?

I once had to correct someone who thought firewarriors were WS5
And I don't mean 5+ to hit as they currently exist but back in 6th ed watching 2 players both genuinely believe that firewarriors should hit orks on a 3+ in melee...

Casual gamers don't necessarily play to win they play for fun and winning is just a nice bonus.

Crist I've seen players just call a game because they don't want to spend the next 2 turns wiping out the rest of a friends army because it's just not fun.

So yes skill is a factor but just remember it's still just a game that's enjoyed but lots of different people for lots of different reasons, not everyone is a fanatic :D

Playing Casual games is all I do to be honest. But that doesn't mean we make bad decisions like letting that one Drone alive that makes my expensive melee unit fail its charge lol

And yes I have to remind some people of rules all the time. Especially one in my group. I have to remind him of his own rules constantly even. ;)

So yeah you don't need to explain to me what it means to be a casual gamer. All I do is playing Beer&Brezel Warhammer. Emphasis on the beer (yes we basically meet to play games and drink beer everytime. Sometimes some good scotch as well). :D

So back to the topic, not shooting that Drone so your unit can charge is like charging a unit you know will kill you easily. It has nothing to do with casual or competetive, it's just playing bad. ^^

Also ultimately the goal of the game is always to win. That doesn't mean you play the most cheese list you can come up with and especially as casual gamer you have more emphasis on the way towards that win instead of just the result itself, but the whole game is designed around one army beating the other.

Nymphomanius
Shas
Posts: 287
Contact:

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#16 » Nov 01 2017 11:16

Panzer wrote:So back to the topic, not shooting that Drone so your unit can charge is like charging a unit you know will kill you easily. It has nothing to do with casual or competetive, it's just playing bad. ^^


The point I was trying to make is sometimes you don't know a unit will butcher you in CC until you charge and get mauled or ask what they have :D

I think on this occasion we may have to agree to disagree, I shall try and gather more intel on using it and report my findings but even if it is shot to pieces then it's potentially done the job of 3-4 shield drones at 1/4 of the price if it wastes enough enemy fire :biggrin:

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Kroot'La
Posts: 786

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#17 » Nov 01 2017 03:12

Arka0415 wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:Also remember the grav inhibitor drones affect enemy units within 12" of it and doesn't just guard pathfinders so 2-3 throughout your lines can make deepstriking units need an 11+ to get into combat from deepstrike which is what 5.5% chance?
If one dice is a 6 it's 33% with a reroll but if highest dice is 5 it's 16.6% and impossible otherwise

If your opponent is counting on charge, they will kill that drone.


True, so you take 2 or 3 of them. It is a fairly effective MSU strategy for persuading your opponent to waste a lot of firepower. We can all distribute damage perfectly if we assume average rolling but dice rarely roll perfectly average and this is especially noticeable when dealing with low numbers of rolls like killing a single drone. What usually happens is one or two get massively over-killed while another just sits there watching bullets fly past it.

When combined with adequate bubble-wrap you really give your opponent a difficult choice between trying to shoot holes in the screen or trying to shoot away the cheap drones. Shooting single-model units is wasteful of firepower so unless your opponent has a surplus of firepower they might not be able to cover all their needs.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1933

Re: How to deal with turn 1 Assault units?

Post#18 » Nov 01 2017 06:21

nic wrote:True, so you take 2 or 3 of them. It is a fairly effective MSU strategy for persuading your opponent to waste a lot of firepower. We can all distribute damage perfectly if we assume average rolling but dice rarely roll perfectly average and this is especially noticeable when dealing with low numbers of rolls like killing a single drone. What usually happens is one or two get massively over-killed while another just sits there watching bullets fly past it.

When combined with adequate bubble-wrap you really give your opponent a difficult choice between trying to shoot holes in the screen or trying to shoot away the cheap drones. Shooting single-model units is wasteful of firepower so unless your opponent has a surplus of firepower they might not be able to cover all their needs.

This is definitely a good idea, if you're playing gunline. However, it feels restrictive, or maybe that's just me. Now we have three Grav Drones, which means corresponding small drone squads to accompany each Grav Drone, and three corresponding min-sized Pathfinder squads as the tax for those, that's already 200 points of Pathfinders and drones that are limited to operating in your gunline, and not buried in cover or in buildings where they should be. You'd better bring a lot of Fire Warriors or Gun Drones to make that investment worthwhile.

Return to “Tau Tactics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ifrit and 2 guests